Firstly hello and good morning I'm new here and I have a beautiful male  Cocker Spaniel. He is part and package of my family. I've read a few posts and apart from feeling a little anxious about replies!  Noted a few on here seem quite harsh and a little judgemental. A lot are friendly and informative. I thoroughly researched the breed before buying, by books, on line and word of mouth with owners. We have always had dogs last pet a labrador  but after losing our beloved 14 year old we felt bereft.
I waited three years then decided on a new breed. We went via the KC site and looked at quite a few litters until we found Mort.  We felt at ease with the breeder, home environment and meeting mum and grandfather at the home. We had lots of advice and support given before we brought him home, visiting him twice with the breeder before the big day.
We have always kept in touch with our breeder (all the puppy owners have!) We chatted with her about having our puppy as a possible stud dog again lots of research and word of mouth problems etc etc. So I took a huge breath and now we are here on the site and I'm still learning, still asking questions! So I'd love to hear stories good or bad! And of course make new friends both human and canine!

Hi and welcome -and well done on doing your research!

The fact you are in touch with your dog's breeder and are discussing things is great! Personally though I would not have a pet dog at stud.  First of all, the show ring (or working, depending on the type of your dog) is the "shop window" for bitch owners, and unless your dog is out and about doing well and getting seen, you will find it more or less impossible to find RESPONSIBLE bitch owners wanting to use him. You can find bitch owners easily enough, but often those will be of the type "Pick the dog nearest to home, breed a litter to make money, don't care where pups go" type of breeder -and of course you don't want that.

Of course, dogs all vary and whether a male dog changes after having been used at stud is individual -it might not happen, but it also could. No way of knowing until after the first mating. As an example I, as a breeder, have some stud dogs, and I have two breeds. One of my dogs has been used only once and it has not changed him at all. His dad, however, turned into an utter pain for an entire year after having first been used at stud. (This wasn't my own dog.) His owner ended up having to take him out of the show ring for a year as ALL he could think about was finding bitches, and he even ended up cocking his lead and peeing up one judge's leg at a show! After a year he settled again -but he was never used at stud again.

Another dog of mine, different breed, was used once about 4 years ago. It changed him so that he became a lot sharper with other dogs, in particular males but also bitches not in season -he turned into a bit of a bully. Towards the end of last year he was used again, twice, and this has only made him worse. He thinks nothing of starting a fight with a dog five times his own size (he actually bit a dog of a MUCH bigger breed and caused an injury recently -as there was a bitch in season nearby), and he also frequently cocks his leg indoors. I am so glad I have leather furniture and no carpets as everything wipes clean!!

The mating process isn't as easy as it may seem and certainly requires skill -if you decide to go ahead your breeder may be able to help you out, maybe you can attend a few matings with her dogs? Many matings can be very straight forward, then you have the ones where the bitch panics as she ties, or where the dog doesn't want to mate the bitch despite her being willing, or where there is enough of a size difference (even an inch can play a part) to make it difficult and ideas have to be thought up, like mating on a slope or using phonebooks or whatever. And you have to be careful because both dog and bitch CAN get injured if things go wrong.

So you would need to have a careful think about whether you think it is all worth it or not. And of course, you have to make sure your dog has had all the breed relevant health tests -but as you clearly have a good breeder I am sure that is something you already know.

Hello Goldmali

Thank you for your reply. We have a show line boy and I've looked at the problems with behaviour after Stud work. A few people have advised it isn't a problem and some have advised could be a change. I am cautious yes and would like the best for my boy. My breeder has offered to help with our first mating and has advised a Bitch with experience of a few litters may be best for his first time. I was approached by a poodle owner wishing to have a cockerpoo!  I'm not sure of this pairing so I haven't yet said yes. The owner not a breeder just wishes a cockerpoo litter one only?.

Yes he is ultimately our pet and I do not wish to change his very sociable, Happy nature.I will keep an open mind and ask lots of questions still.

Hello; how nice to see someone doing their research! You'd be surprised how rare that is.

>I was approached by a poodle owner wishing to have a cockerpoo!  I'm not sure of this pairing so I haven't yet said yes. The owner not a breeder just wishes a cockerpoo litter one only?.

I'm afraid this is exactly the sort of breeder (and anyone whose bitch has even one puppy is a breeder, just as anyone who has a child is a parent) you want to avoid. I don't suppose for one second she told you what genetic tests her poodle had passed?

I was approached by a poodle owner wishing to have a cockerpoo!  I'm not sure of this pairing so I haven't yet said yes. The owner not a breeder just wishes a cockerpoo litter one only?.

Anyone wanting to deliberately breed crossbreeds should ring warning bells. Unless they are doing it for a legitimate working purpose, such as producing guide dogs, hearing dogs, dogs for competitive obedience etc (in which case they will want a stud dog with proven qualities for the type of work), they are only breeding pets and are therefore only breeding for money.That's never the way to breed responsibly. A good breeder will always have an ultimate aim with every mating, and that aim is never just to sell pets or make money.

I have advised my boy wouldn't be available and advised research the breed and not just because it would be good for asthmatic member of family! Aware Spoodles/Sprockers/Cockapoo seem all the fashion of late yet really are a so far mainly an unofficial breed.
Spoken with my vet today regarding my boy and possible behaviour problems in the future if used successfully as a Stud dog. So I'm still researching, still learning and evaluating pros and cons!  Guess I'm a born worrier!

Welcome and as others have said its great your doing your research.
A big thing is the health testing as no responsible breeder would want to use a stud dog that was untested, I'd advise getting them done one at a time starting with the cheaper one as that way if he is found to have one of the problems it saves your paying out to get the rest done.

How old is he now? If he's that good then I'd be tempted to get him into the show ring if he's from
Show stock, even if the breeder handles him to start with.
Depending on his age has he had all the health tests? If not it wouldn't cross my mind to even consider it until all health tests are done and results are good. Is it just hips and eyes for this breed? I'm not up on this breed and the requirements.

> Aware Spoodles/Sprockers/Cockapoo seem all the fashion of late yet really are a so far mainly an unofficial breed

All the above dogs are crossbreeds, they are not a breed unofficial or otherwise. Bred for the silly sums of money that the gullible will pay and the greedy will charge.

Glad you said no to the poodle owner wanting some quick cash.

I would have sent her to the dogs homes where there a hundreds of "hypoallergenic" dogs with no one to love them.

I'm not a breeder so I can only offer some advice from a pet owner stand point but I have to agree that you really really need to do the health testing on your own and then if everything is clear AND your breeder says she feels you ought to stud then obviously only a suitable bitch also health tested, and then consider temperament of bitch of course too.  I cant stress how important doing all that is.

My sister has an English cocker and has suffered the consequences of poor breeding without sufficient health tests - Billy has had several issues with his eyes including cataracts since birth which resulted in 4 operations on his eyes before the age of 2. He also has rage syndrome and believe me you think a cocker is sweet and small but the damage their mouths can do isn't - its a heart-breaking condition since he will suddenly flip, give no warning whatsoever, no growl, no body stance change - and then just bite - it takes considerable time to get him to unlatch on his target and then a greater amount of time with him snarling shaking and hiding under furniture for the episode to pass. Our family has dealt with this for 13 years and in his very old age he has gone deaf too and become docile and luckily had no episodes in the last 2 years but - how would you feel as a breeder to find a pup your boy helps make had the same issues and had permanently scarred or maimed a child?  Cockers are often bought by owners in families with children and is a very real risk. Our family has had to do some pretty creative training and blockade building and pet sitting all so we could find a way for my sister to be able to keep Billy and still get married and have a child. Many other families would have thrown him straight to the vets to pts or sent him packing to Blue Cross.

His breeding on paper didn't look too bad and was KC registered - but knowing what I know now my sister definitely bought from a breeder more interested in cash for the litter than undertaking health tests and temperament assessment of both bitch and stud - if you do consider breeding please don't think that any avenue when it comes to checking your boy is suitable AND the bitch is suitable is not vital because the pet owners are the ones that suffer for rash decisions when it comes to breeding.

I'm very glad you said no to the person wanting to make a crossbreed with your boy - because that would've been a potential disaster since it wouldn't have been a proven bitch when it comes to temperament - you would've had to take the bitch's owners word as say so - and show dogs are far easier to actually see and evaluate when it comes to whether or not they have a sound temperament. I don't have anything against all these doodle etc crosses - but honestly there are so many beautiful hypoallergenic breeds already why are they so popular it stinks of "trend" or "fad". I had one person talking to me in the park the other day about wanting a labradoodle and describing the coat and look she wanted and the fact that it was hypoallergenic - she sounded like she was describing a soft coated wheaten terrier to me and I said so - she hadn't heard of any other hypoallergenic or partially hypoallergenic breed - only that these crosses were - it made me sad.

Good luck in your quest for information - don't think you are a worrier - its not something anyone should do that doesn't a) worry and b) research a lot.

I would ask yourself exactly why you are interested in using your dog at stud, then consider why the breeder is encouraging you.

How old is Mort?  If your male is of exceptional quality (assessed by results in the show ring or by an experienced judge), contributes something that can't otherwise be accessed (sire deceased, no entire brothers), is of good temperament and has been fully health tested then I can understand why you might think about using him...

I have entire boys and I would have to be 120% convinced I was doing the right thing to even consider them being used, and even then I'm more no than yes!  Have you ever witnessed a mating?

I went with a friend when her bitch was mated and I came away completely convinced that I was never going to do it again, I wouldn't put my beloved dogs through that, and I wanted a bath!!  Despite what nature might have you believe mating your dog is no easy task.  My friends bitch was a complete floozy and certainly very keen - she had been tested so we knew we were there at the right time - but it was still an extraordinarily physical experience with 4 people (yes FOUR) helping to make sure they tied and stayed in place.  I'm telling you it is not for the feint hearted!!  I was up the business end with a torch for ages

This was the bitch's second litter but we needed the stud dog owners help and guidance to get a good mating.  It is NOT for the inexperienced and if I were a bitch owner I wouldn't go to just anyone.  At the very least you'd need to engage the physical help of someone who had done this before and was experienced in all the things that might happen.  Your dog can be bitten, or worse, without such support.

A cautionary note too - a stud fee is as much for YOUR time and experience, as it is for your dog.  It's an extremely disruptive experience for you and your dog and you may suddenly have to take time off work or cancel plans to be available to a visiting bitch and it can take a very long time to get a successful mating.  You will also need to be available to puppy owners who may wish to meet the sire and who might want your support throughout the life of their puppies.  Sadly you might also be expected to assist if any of those puppies were to need medical care (attributed to preventable heritable conditions) or may need rehoming.

On a personal level I'm not sure that the stud fee is actually worth the hassle and responsibility - it isn't easy money by any means - and doesn't really compensate you for the ongoing commitment to each litter OR the risk that your dog's lovely temperament might change.  It can also affect the hierarchy between dogs that live together.   I may one day be persuaded but that time isn't now and probably not with my current dogs (despite their good results in the show ring).

Good luck in your decision making

Thanks everyone! Answers to some of your questions currently he is 18 months old.I have booked Mort into vets for hip/elbow scores and advised as parents clear re eyes he should genetically be too? Looking for local shows we are West Midlands based.
We are also thinking if not using as stud we definitely wish a second Cocker Spaniel puppy(should have brought two together to complete family!) and I have been given a name I recognised from here ****** by a breeders advert on KC site.

> We are also thinking if not using as stud we definitely wish a second Cocker Spaniel puppy(should have brought two together to complete family!)

So glad you did not buy 2 puppies. Two pups together can be a nightmare for a number of reasons, they can be harder to house train, they bond with each other more than with you the owner, it can be impossible to teach them simple things such as walking nicely on the lead, they can be best friends with each other for life or they can develop a deep hatred for each other to the point that they will fight very seriously. Enjoy your puppy, enter some shows, see if he does well and wins, get him health tested and then and only then think if he is good enough to use as stud.

Not much to add to Dogs a Babes excellent post..other than to reiterate...WHY do you want to have him at stud?

Fun?.....it's not! It's time consuming, very frustrating when people have travelled a long way on the SPECIFIC day for their bitch and the pressure is on.

Experience?.... Well you'll certainly get that. People paying good money will expect you to know what you're doing so as not to damage their precious bitch and to facilitate a successful mating. You will need to learn all about that.

Money?.....you won't get many studs from people within the breed as he will be an 'unknown' so it will be mainly pet and one off breeders...YOU will have to be your own moral compass on that one I'm afraid.
(I had a rather well know champion dog which I used 5 times and regretted 3 of those matings in some ways.)

To get one of his offspring?..... Better to get another of the same breeding or very similar from his breeder. Any mating your dog has with a total outcross bitch is likely to produce something quite different.
If his breeder thinks he is a useful addition to the gene pool, is considered reputable ( not just profit driven) and willing to help you to avoid these pitfalls..I wish you luck.

Tools firstly thank you for your reply. I am aware of the pitfalls thank you and also very aware of the way forums can have members who encourage and give support  without the need to be patronising, bitter or having to use caps to "shout" their opinions across. Yes I could take a gamble and buy a puppy and it won't be the same as my boy-however puppies like humans are individual characters and not sheep! I would have to feel the breeder feels right, initial enquiries often indicate to me the personality the breeder has, the Dam and how she is with puppies and the home environment, the whole package has to feel right, then it's the gamble on the pups nature! So far out of 4 dogs of my own and two police puppies I puppy walked two in a year, hard work! I have not encountered a badly behaved or natured puppy.

I like to think I am always approachable, friendly and not rude in any way. My Nan always advised If you can't say anything nice then don't speak at all. As I said on my original post I was a little hesitant re posting due to any negative comments,
Thank you for all the positive support and yes also advising of the possible problems. Feeling a little bit got at Tools.

I think that even though he's PRA clear by parentage he also needs the KC/BVA eye scheme eye test, which is an annual test (I could be wrong, this isn't my breed!). The breed health council seem to also recommend testing for FN. Join your breed club if you haven't already, they have a wealth of experience and information!

Here's a link to help you find tests: http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/14688/dnatestsworldwide.pdf

Good luck

Thanks Tectonic!  I did email my local club twice yet no reply? I've spoken to my vet and have all the necessary information re tests! Appointment made re test. I'm searching for local shows to first take in experience of a show or two.
I stayed in touch with two breeders when searching for Mort, their puppies went before we could travel. They stayed in touch while we searched and have been an excellent source of information and support!

I will apologise in advance as I do not believe that what I am about to post you will view as nice, but when you ask a question you have to accept that some of the responses will not be the positive or supportive.

I consider myself a reputable breeder of the same breed as yourself. I would not consider using your dog at stud. When looking for a stud dog I am looking for the whole package; a dog that has proved himself in the show ring, has excellent confirmation and type, is recognised for the qualities and attributes he brings to the breed, has an excellent pedigree where the lines are known inside out by the breeder, has a super personality and is handled expertly by his owner.

I am not questioning the quality of your dog, he may come from fantastic lines, but that is not enough for a reputable breeder where there is an amazing choice of stud dogs already available.

I genuinely believe that reputable breeders will not use your dog, even with health tests in place; therefore your boy will be servicing other pet owners and backyard breeders, who in the main have no idea how to whelp and raise a beautiful litter of pups.

The correct testing for cockers are as follows
DNA test for PRA
DNA test for FN
Both above tests are blood test/mouth swabs, taken by a vet (dog has to be micro chipped/tattooed to ensure correcd ID. The samples than have to be sent to Antigen in France and Optigen in America for testing. Results take anything up to a month and the cost is well over £100. Not sure now as it is 5 years since mine were tested.
BVA eye test (annually)
Hip scores

No one should even think of breeding until all these tests are done. The future of the cocker spaniel is dependent on reputable breeders breeding health tested dogs that conform to the breed standard.

Please can we keep this thread friendly and constructive - I don't feel the OP has been rude saying that some members can come across as "harsh and a little judgmental" as there have been replies on some threads like that but that is the difficulty with forums - the written word can come across as harsh when this was not intended

Saxonjus, I have your breed too and can only echo what others have said - stud work is not for the faint hearted and if you want to do it as part of developing a deeper interest in your breed, then you'll find plenty of advice and support but you do have to expect that the negatives will be pointed out to you so you are fully prepared on what to expect. Your vet is unlikely to have any experience of stud work or behavioural issues that may be seen (unless they breed themselves as some do) so you are best off talking to reputable and experienced owners/breeders. We have owned a number of boys who have been used at stud over the years but currently don't have any at stud and am quite relieved about that to be honest and it's not something that we will probably want to do again - it's hard work that's for sure. You also don't mention FN testing (included in the list Lynne posted above) - this is a fatal disease and it's very important that if you do intend offering your boy at stud that he is either tested clear or hereditarily clear. I'm sorry you haven't had a reply from your local breed club but you could also take a look at the national breed club here where you'll find health advice etc: www.thecockerspanielclub.co.uk

I have taken on board comments made . I read many threads on here before plucking courage to post as yes a few heated debates.I will always have my boys interest at heart.  I never questioned why do you breed? What does your dog/bitch offer?  or are your boys or girls pets first? No I asked random questions and I'm not rude or hostile at all. I will stand up for myself and my beautiful boy with passion and honesty.

Any one making money without a thought for their pets welfare is abhorrent to me. I cannot understand some breeders who's dogs never see a wood/park or inside a home all they see are shows, grooming parlours, onesies (Seen the pictures from outside crufts) and outside kennels. I would never buy a puppy from here only one from a family environment.  I'm as entitled to my opinion as everyone on here is as well.

New members want to ask questions to join in and feel a community spirit not feel ostracised for making a simple post.

> Any one making money without a thought for their pets welfare is abhorrent to me. I cannot understand some breeders who's dogs never see a wood/park or inside a home all they see are shows, grooming parlours, onesies (Seen the pictures from outside crufts) and outside kennels.

It's a tricky one  - the out and out puppy farms are much easier to spot nowadays - it's the middle ground that can be quite deceptive.  There are some adored pets being used, with and without health tests, and the owners are very convincing.  They pretend they aren't breeders because they are doing it only once;  or they own dam and sire and tell you that's normal; they tell you that KC registration is unnecessary; or perhaps they say they don't go to Crufts - as if that somehow makes them better than those that do...  The list of these myths and 'fakes' go on and sometimes these are the people doing the most harm.

Try and make every decision with 4 objectives in mind: protect your dog, protect your reputation, protect the resulting puppies and protect the breed (don't breed poor examples).  They is no absolute right answer just as there is no absolute wrong one but if you keep these objectives in mind you stand a pretty good chance of making a good decision.

On another note dog showing is a funny old business and it doesn't suit everyone - or indeed every dog - but it is an excellent way to get to know your own dog and your breed in general.  You won't like everything you see or hear but it's a hugely valuable learning experience that cannot be replicated in any other way.  The dog suits that some breeds wear might look weird but it's only for the walk from car to show ring and then only when it's wet, muddy or windy.  Those same dogs (and owners) will likely be knee deep in mud, and loving it, the very next day!!  Those same owners, who are sometimes condemned by others, will tell you that there is no difference between a pet and a show dog.  Going to a show is something they do for a few hours a few days a month, it's not a full time job and no more onerous for the dog than a trip to a training class.  In fact most dogs treat it as a special outing for which they get very nice treats, a bit of training and some 1:1 time - lovely.

>Feeling a little bit got at Tools.......

Really?
Certainly not meant to, just a frank and honest reply from someone with lots of experience in dogs.

I cannot understand some breeders who's dogs never see a wood/park or inside a home all they see are shows, grooming parlours, onesies (Seen the pictures from outside crufts) and outside kennels.

There no doubt are some people like that, but generally speaking, a dog living in a kennel, not used to going for walks etc, is very unlikely to be ABLE to be shown as they simply would not cope with the environment. I have a dog that was treated like this before I got her, and she would freeze in new situations. She could never, ever have been a showdog as a show dog has to be happy and confident. Show dogs have to get used to a lot more than most pet dogs, and have more confidence. That doesn't happen by staying at home in a kennel.

Hi, firstly I agree that everyone has to start somewhere. I'd like to bring in a different angle to consider. My boy is used at stud, he has puppies both here and in Finland. I bought him originally as my first show dog and he has done very well. It was through his show career that I was approached by others in my breed to use him.
I had never seen dogs mating before we had our first bitch visit. Naively I thought it would be a case of putting them in the garden, let nature take over and hand her back. I learnt very quickly this was not the reality. As the owner of a stud dog it is normally a messy, hands on job. You need to get your boy used to you handling him ( use your imagination) and also take into consideration that your family probably won't be as keen on the idea as you are. There's many a time my teenage boys have expressed their disgust if they walk in on a mating! It really does take up a lot of your time if you are offering a proper service. I also know where all my boy's offspring are and are friends with many of the owners.
Did you buy your boy with the idea of him being a stud dog? If yes that's fine, but I think you will learn far more from a knowledgeable mentor in your breed that is happy to either be on the end of the phone or actually be at any mating than reading books and going on forums.

Yes I understand re the coats now. I know a lot of hard work goes on getting ready for a show.

Written over 10 years ago, but still good advice

http://forum.champdogs.co.uk/topic_show.pl?tid=55104

Ironically yes we did! We did have in mind to buy a girl however when we got to our breeder only boys left. We were totally smitten with our boy love at first sight. We have always had girls so this is our first boy! After discussions with our breeder we decided to research well before we took any decision to go ahead. On our purchase agreement we have permission to breed from the breeder. I know a lot can have exclusions/limitations regarding breeding/taking abroad etc.
One of the reasons I joined champdogs because I wanted to be part of a community with the same objectives a happy/healthy dog not on the streets and free from lots of traits from in breeding. I guess I could be classed as naive to wish every puppy had a good start in life and a permanent happy home.
Matings I've seen one yes and it was longer than I expected and also more "hands on!" so I came to ask to find out more. I may have taken a step to register my boy however I'm still debating and will not go ahead until I/we are ready and happy to do so.
By the way Hello Jane thank you for your response

I did read your thread earlier a lovely member gave me the link.

Hi saxonjus.  Unlike many on here, I don't show (although do work and compete with my dogs).  I am also not against pet breeding if it is done well, however, I do think having a pet stud dog is different from breeding from a pet bitch.  Two dogs that I meet locally are a good illustration of this.  Since being mated they have become a right royal PITA around other dogs.  Their owners are pretty blind to it and see no problems, and there have been no actual fights, but I now avoid them like the plague.  Having what was once a lovely pet turn into a dog that starts to throw it's weight about amongst other 'pets' on walks and in public begs the question - is it really worth it?  I think it's worth remembering that working/show dogs that are used at stud lead busy lives and have other things to occupy themselves with, so don't tend to show these traits so much, but to a pet dog, who tends to live in and go out for daily walks, it takes on a huge significance that seems to lead it to being a PITA to other pet dogs.  Just worth thinking about because once it's done there's no going back.

Before you spend money on health testing, this item may be of interest.  It has been used for many years to show puppy buyers how to spot a responsible breeder when looking for a pet puppy.

http://www.dogplay.com/GettingDog/breedercomparison.htm

I guess I could be classed as naive to wish every puppy had a good start in life and a permanent happy home.

How do you think you can influence that by offering your boy as a stud?

And I would also suggest you may be detrimental to the ideals that you hold. By visiting or taking part in shows, (whilst draping my dogs in a onesie), I am able to "window shop". I am able to not only vet the suitability of the stud I am interested in, but also over time build a relationship with the stud dog owner. We can compare our attitudes and ethics; we can discuss our pedigrees and what we hope to achieve from the potential mating. From these discussions the Stud dog owner and the Bitch owner can be confident that any puppies created have the very best start in life, with careful vetting of all potential parents seen as the norm.

How will you build that type of relationship? How will you ensure that the owner who brings her bitch to use your service will give the puppies a good start in life and how will you ensure that the bitch owner seeks a permanent happy home for all of them?

As I believe that the only people that will look at your boy are backyard breeders and pet owners you will be helping to create puppies that, in the majority of cases, are bred by people who have very little knowledge of the breed and believe that raising a litter of puppies is easy and a quick way to make money. As most of them are purely concerned by the profit they will make, they tend to sell their pups irresponsibly and do not look for a permanent happy home, just a home that happens to have a bit of money to buy a pup.

I would also like to point out the following so that you can gain more knowledge about the lifestyle my Show cockers have:

My girls have full show coats that are immaculate, yet they have never set foot in a grooming parlour. I know enough about my breed to maintain their coats without external support.

All of my girls have a home for life.

My girls sleep next to me every night, and have full access to the home at all times.

They have never seen the inside of a kennel, never mind about setting foot in one.

My girls have all passed KC Gold award

Two of my girls are active Pets at Therapy dogs.

My girls are walked three times daily and are regularly taken to the common, national parks, beach and forests.

They all come on holiday with us several times per year, they are never left alone.

Just because I have a hobby that I love which involves my dogs, you should not assume the quality of the life they lead is not as rich and rewarding as the life your boy experiences.

All of my puppies are expertly and carefully raised in the heart of the home and you will find this is the case with most reputable breeders. The person you describe as being the type of breeder you would not purchase a puppy from is exactly the type of breeder that would want to use your stud dog service.

Thank you for the link West Coast . We all have different opinions about the list and any subject we all would differ. I feel we all can agree thou I feel, we want the best for any animal, cat, dog, rabbit, chinchilla, snake or spiders and a warm, Happy, fulfilling home, life and family.
So big thanks I've listened, read and taken on board lots of views.

There is little on that list that responsible breeders would disagree with, which is why it has been used for many years.  :)

Do you as a breeder visit the potential puppy owners home?
Do safety checks around the home/Garden?
Do a police check on potential owners?
Check their work to see if they really are home with the puppy?
Give the new owners classes on grooming (not needed by police/guide dogs to show standard)

All these are done if you wish to puppy walk for the Police/Guide Dogs which I successfully passed and had the delight of two puppies, training,being visited and assessed, following set training guidelines, walking and finding out they had successfully progressed into a working life. It seems no one bothered to ask when I mentioned puppy walking to see what experience or commitment I have.
Instead of seeing negative in me or my boy why not have got to know me? Why assume I'd be a back street breeder?

I'm not here to create a negative post purely to obtain knowledge, friendship and support.
My apologies to Mark the admin for trying to start a new post by a newbie,

Instead of seeing negative in me or my boy why not have got to know me? Why assume I'd be a back street breeder?


I don't think anyone is saying this, indeed most of us are very happy that you are doing your research and taking everything seriously. The point being made is that without your dog being out and about being seen doing well at shows, the BITCH owners you are likely to be approached by will be the bad breeders. Simply because the responsible owners have the very best dogs , worldwide even (we think nothing of travelling across this country OR abroad for a mating), to choose from, and therefore would not consider an unknown dog that's not proven himself as a good example of his breed. We can pick and choose the very best, and we often spot dogs at shows, follow their career, and make plans to use them, years in advance. That doesn't mean your dog isn't good, not at all, it just means he won't be considered by the right type of breeder.

Instead of seeing negative in me or my boy why not have got to know me? Why assume I'd be a back street breeder?

I do not assume that at all. If that were the case you would already be using him at stud, without any health tests being completed and without any thought to the repercussion of your actions. I am however trying to highlight that as a Stud dog owner you have no control over the puppies born, therefore you have to have complete trust in the owner of the bitch to safeguard your dogs offspring.

You are hoping that reputable breeders will use your boy, but as I have already pointed out this will not be the case. He may be stunning in confirmation, temperament and type with great health results with an amazing pedigree, but with so many other proven studs available that offer all of that with excellent show results they will ultimately be a reputable breeders first choice.

My biggest fear is that your boy will be highly desirable to the type of breeder that you would be directly trying to avoid, and they hide their cloth very carefully.

In response to the questions you asked, not sure if they were directed toward me specifically, but:

Do you as a breeder visit the potential puppy owners home? - yes if local, but sometimes I have to rely on google earth to initially check that the house they describe is "as pictured", but tell all potential owners I may home visit.

Do safety checks around the home/Garden? - I ask all potential families to bring pictures of their home and garden during their initial visit so that we can discuss, together, any potential health or safety concerns either I or they have.

Do a police check on potential owners? No, but I wish I could. However I provide, on request, a copy of an enhanced CRB check of myself.

Check their work to see if they really are home with the puppy? Yes, I will not reserve a puppy without a landline present and will randomly call this number at various times of the day to confirm the working arrangements I have been told

Give the new owners classes on grooming? Yes, every time. I actively encourage hand stripping, therefore I have to be able to competently demonstrate and teach this.

But also please remember that most of my potential parents have been on a waiting list with me for several months, so we have had ample opportunity to build a relationship of trust and friendship before puppies are even expected. This is the case for most reputable breeders.

It seems your boy is adored and I applaud the obvious love and passion you have for him. It is because of this I am taking the time to respond; if I believed for one second that you did not have your boys best interests at heart I would not invest any time in a response. I genuinely wish you the very best, and I hope that the opinions and information you receive via this forum will help you to make a decision that is right for you and your boy.

Thanks Darwinawards for your reply and I really feel the love, devotion you have for your girls and their offspring. I know if I use my boy as a Stud dog I could have little say in the matter regarding placing his offspring. I had nurtured the idea of a joint venture with the Dam owner, getting to know each other and working together to find/interview possible new owners. When looking for my puppy I did fill in a few questionnaires before the litter was due and visited one breeder - I did not feel a connection when visiting prior to the pups arrival, the whole set up just felt not right for us.a
At the time we had wished a girl and 3 boys 1 girl arrived however the girl already spoken for. It is a two way connection both breeder and prospective puppy owner should feel? Or am I incorrect?
I'm home I don't work now due to personal reasons. I had the time, love, and energy to give a puppy and yes my boy gives me so many happy days and every wag of his tail gives me a buzz. Yes I'm nuts about him.

It's through showing my dogs that I have acquired a circle of very good friends, days out at Open and Championship shows are as much a social event as well as competing in the show ring and I think you'll find that most who do some form of activity with their dogs, be it showing, agility, flyball etc are the same. If you aren't interested in showing your boy have you thought of looking at other dog related activities where you could meet like minded people.

I don't know you but reading some of your replies I'm concerned that you are running before you can walk. Have his health tests done, get the results, discuss them with his breeder and take their advice. You obviously felt you had a connection before you bought your pup home, build on that.

On our purchase agreement we have permission to breed from the breeder. I know a lot can have exclusions/limitations regarding breeding/taking abroad etc.

Do you mean that no endorsements were placed on your puppy Saxonjus, or that his breeder promised to lift his endorsements subject to health tests being carried out and with acceptable results?

The only endorsement was not to take my boy abroad.

> I don't know you but reading some of your replies I'm concerned that you are running before you can walk

You can say that again, the dog is already being advertised on Champdogs for stud.

I'm afraid quite a few of the responsible and knowledgeable on this forum would see that as a bit of a red flag. We often even endorse those puppies we keep ourselves until all health tests are done with satisfactory results.  None of us have a crystal ball after all

It would seem Saxonjus' breeder didn't do a very good job of explaining the export endorsement!

> Before all newbies are hung, drawn and quartered by a small section of users maybe you should think before sending that private message.

Members are not cross with you because you are NEW they are cross because they feel let down by your actions.  You stated quite clearly that you were open to advice and looking for guidance.  Some of our members have clearly given up a lot of time to write some very constructive responses to you.  Creating a stud page, complete with a price for stud fees, BEFORE you've even had the necessary health tests suggests that you aren't listening to the advice you have been given and that perhaps, just perhaps, your post was nothing more than another way of advertising your dog.

Please reconsider x

You aren't being bullied, you may feel that people aren't in agreement with you and for good reason. You said you were open to all advice re breeding and grooming yet you've totally ignored this from your advert you've put on this site.
Because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you are being bullied, differences of opinions will be seen on any forum and as for breeding you will find the majority on here have the same/similar viewpoints which are to protect the breeds, all breeds and do it all correctly and ethically.
To note being new hasn't anything to do with it, it's your actions which have which have actually upset some posters because they've tried to help you and you've essentially thrown it back into their faces.  Were you honestly on here to learn?

>So I'm still researching, still learning and evaluating pros and cons!

Honestly?

If people give advice that's counter to what you want to hear, it's not bullying. To advertise a dog at stud before the breed relevant health tests have been successfully taken is highly irresponsible, I'm afraid.

There are a few problems here. If I have the right dog... 18 month old untested dog called Mort, I like my odds!

He's been advertised at stud for at least a month in many areas on another website, and now on here.

He is advertised as FDR clear- what is that? I have never heard of this and the parents don't have any health tests associated with these letters. Your dog doesn't seem to be genetically clear of anything according to the Kennel Club.

prcd-PRA and FN are autosomal recessive conditions. According to the data the Kennel Club holds your dog could be a carrier for both.

His mother has no health tests at all. There are no health tests on her side back at least 3 generations. She has the kennel club affix too which to me doesn't usually scream quality or care and attention.

His father only has hereditary clear on a couple of DNA tests, no hips or eye test. There is some sporadic DNA testing in the line but no other health tests for at least 3 generations.

Not a whiff of a hip score anywhere.

I'm no cocker spaniel expert, but he doesn't look like the dogs you see in the show ring or in the field, he looks like your average pet bred cocker and his pedigree seems to agree (sorry, I'm sure you love him etc).

I personally would just enjoy him for what he is..... a lovely pet. Sorry :-/ You won't attract the bitch owners you want with him.
And yeah a bit confused you've posted this after advertising at stud anyway.....

I'm so disappointed. It was so lovely to feel we had somebody being responsible and genuinely wanting advice, then that turns out not to be the case at all. Now this is not my breed at all (although I have owned dog of the breed in the past) but as somebody active in the dog fancy, showing, reading the dog papers etc, even I can tell  both by photos and pedigree that this is a pure pet bred dog, not from a show breeder, not even resembling what you see in the show ring -and lacking vital health tests. ENJOY him as a pet, have a go at some training , he could be a great dog for obedience or rally or flyball or agility!, but forget about breeding.Not all dogs are good enough to breed from, and I myself certainly have several that aren't good enough for showing and therefore not for breeding. These are still much loved pets (and yes I AM a reasonably successful exhibitor), and they are NEUTERED.