Are many of the perceived problems with dog breeding and ownership due to the lack of grey ?

We have got threads currently running where people are being pigeon holed into being either good or bad breeders, good or bad owners, with right or wrong ways of doing things.

How about we just accept there are some reasonably ok owners and some reasonably ok breeders and some so so ways of doing things.

Is the insistence of seeing everything in black and white giving the perception that there are more problems than actually really exist ?

No I would have to disagree.  I feel I have learnt that there are certain non- negotiables. People have parameters or ways in doing certain things and are very tolerant that what works for one may not be your way but does not mean it is wrong. For example when to socialise - before or after vaccination. There are many other examples feeding, insurance etc etc

> How about we just accept there are some reasonably ok owners and some reasonably ok breeders

Yes - although (as a non-breeder and hopefully looking for a puppy in a few years) all should strive for the best :) No-one is perfect !! However, some 'good' breeders would put me off completely and I'd run for the hills even if it meant not getting a puppy !!

Daisy, I would be interested to know what would put you off good breeders

> I would be interested to know what would put you off good breeders

It's 'some' - not the fact that they are 'good' :) I wouldn't go to someone who didn't health test, vet owners properly etc etc. It works both ways with buying a puppy doesn't it - not just that the prospective owner is 'approved' by the breeder, but vice versa. Prospective owners also have their own criteria - equally valid if they are to share their life with the puppy and it's breeder for 15 years or so:) :)

IMO they are not "good" breeders if they do not health test or vet potential puppy buyers so don't see what the problem is. When buying a puppy, it is advisable to find a "good" breeder and then wait for a puppy IMO.

> they are not "good" breeders if they do not health test or vet potential puppy buyers so don't see what the problem is. When buying a puppy, it >is advisable to find a "good" breeder and then wait for a puppy IMO

That's not what I said :)

Unfortunately we have this "want it now" mind set. People decide they want a puppy and are not prepared to wait for a litter from a "good" breeder. I have so many enquiries from people who "want a puppy for Xmas"..no way. "Want one for my child's birthday"...no way. Puppies are not and should not be, a commodity than you can buy from the nearest shop. Sorry, rant over

some 'good' breeders would put me off completely and I'd run for the hills even if it meant not getting a puppy !!

Sorry Daisy you did say that.

I think there needs to be an acceptable shade of grey to be able to give somebody a thumbs up. The problem is what I think  is acceptable criteria may not be others ,I suppose it all depends on personal standards and what levels of risk you are willing to take . I think however but without a guide / benchmarks for the uneducated prospective buyer it must seem very daunting .

> Are many of the perceived problems with dog breeding and ownership due to lack the lack of grey ?

No, that's far too simplistic and implies that you think the 'problem' is a lack of understanding or tolerance.

No, the key is in the word perception - you may perceive a problem where I do not, and vice versa.  Our opinions are formed by education and it's fairly true that the more informed you are the better decision you will make - for yourself, for your family and for your dogs.  One persons 'good' is another persons 'OK'.  One persons 'tolerable' might be a 'no go' for someone else.  Example:  If Joe gets a problem puppy from a certain 'type' of breeder it's easy to understand why Joe would label all such breeders as bad.  The more research Joe does as to what can be done to improve the statistical likelihood of producing a healthy puppy, for instance, the more likely he is to form clear opinions about what constitutes a 'good' or 'bad' breeder.   Now having experienced such a problem Joe may become very vocal in his condemnation of such and quite vehement in his desire to educate and inform others.  This could be quite breed specific and may require a rethink if his circumstances or breed requirements change, and of course it may well not be relevant to all of his audience.  If I'm to learn from Joe's experience I simply have to filter his judgements and emotions and concentrate on the facts - bit like normal life really - and I think we all do this all the time on a forum such as this.  We cherry pick information from a variety of sources and apply our own filters to find relevance :)

> How about we just accept there are some reasonably ok owners and some reasonably ok breeders and some so so ways of doing things.

Yes there are, and I think we accept that is the reality.  However, we do not (and should not) AIM to be mediocre.  There is a time for 'good enough' and for 'compromising' but it isn't when setting objectives.  I want the 'best' breeder for my puppy and have an exacting set of criteria I'm looking for.  If I'm ever going to commit myself to the written word, in answer to a forum question about breeding for instance, I'll explain exactly what I'm looking for and what I would disregard.  It's not for me to use terms such as good and bad but you might interpret it as such.  I presume the same to true of those setting out to breed.  I'm sure no one actually wants to breed a reasonably OK puppy - surely they have a long list of adjectives that better describe their ideal...

Forums such as this invite discussion and debate.  I would hope that most of us are concerned about dogs in general but we all have slightly different ways of going about things and very different (sometimes quite rigid) views.  What is wrong with that?  From a learning perspective I've had my views challenged, my perspective altered and my suspicions confirmed on numerous occasions.  I've been informed on a number of topics I previously had little interest in or knowledge of and I've had my mind changed by many a convincing argument.  It is in our nature to form opinion, be judgmental and 'pigeon-hole' or label people - it's in our need to rationalise, explain and find pattern in a chaotic life.  In fact our urge to identify 'bad breeders' is, within the outspoken members of Champdogs a 'norm' that unites us!!

>some 'good' breeders would put me off completely and I'd run for the hills even if it meant not getting a puppy
> Sorry Daisy you did say that

Yes - I said that. I can't relate it to your reply tho' !

> It is in our nature to form opinion, be judgmental and 'pigeon-hole' or label people - it's in our need to rationalise, explain and find pattern in a >chaotic life.  In fact our urge to identify 'bad breeders' is, within the outspoken members of Champdogs a 'norm' that unites us!!

Very well said :) What I tried to say, but don't have your eloquence, is that being a 'good' breeder isn't just ticking all the defined boxes of health testing etc. When you buy a puppy you have got to form a bond with the breeder - it's a two-way thing and not, as sometimes comes across here , as 'God' condescending to let you have a puppy !! Yes - you have got to fulfil the breeder's requirements as an ideal owner, but they have also got to meet the buyer's requirements too. After all, the owner is the customer and I don't think it is unrealistic to expect that respect works both ways. It's no wonder that some people go to BYB's if they are treated in the way that sometimes happens on this forum. In reality, face-to-face, it might not be as bad as it comes across here ....... I do hope so :) :) :)

I think that there will always be grey. From a breeders perspective, we all on here hopefully class ourselves as "good" breeders, but it is definitive of good which requires the "fifty shades of grey".

I have chatted with and visited some "good" breeders, but have chosen not to go forward with my initial interest in their litter. And as I know I will probably be asked why????:

* I did not like the way one lady constantly dismissed her dogs from the room whilst I was visiting, although they were causing no bother or upset.
* I did not agree with one gent in his approach to socialisation.
* I was not happy with the conditions the puppy were going to be raised in
* I could not purchase a puppy that spent most of its time in a puppy pen, however amazing its pedigree.
* I was not happy with the diet the puppy would be fed on or the process followed for weaning.

Did this make them "bad" breeders? No, not at all, they just did not match my requirements.

I could go on, but I am just trying to highlight that what we look for when searching for our "perfect pup" or "perfect breeder" or "perfect owner" will always be different as we will each have our own perspective. Only through constantly educating ourselves and others can we hope to find the right fit. I  do not look for the perfect owners as I am not a perfect breeder, but I do look for families that are happy to learn and grow at the same rate that their puppy and I do. I look for people that I trust will always have the dogs best interests at heart, even when they get it very wrong. Just as I do.

It's no wonder that some people go to BYB's if they are treated in the way that sometimes happens on this forum. In reality, face-to-face, it might not be as bad as it comes across here ....... I do hope so :) :) :)

Sometimes, just sometimes, you can't win whatever you do, so all ANYONE can do as a breeder is be themselves from day one.

I had a puppy buyer once who I really liked, I was impressed with how she looked after and trained her puppy and always kept in touch with me, and I said so. Many times. I told her she was my ideal puppy buyer, I was so happy with all she did. The dog was returned to me aged 2, the reasons were fine and are irrelevant to the story. It was neither dog's nor owner's fault, it was a change of circumstances. But at the same time I was told I had been putting too much pressure on the owner! All I had ever done was be encouraging and complimentary, I never pushed for anything, never said a bad word, I answered every e-mail but never demanded more than what was offered.

> All I had ever done was be encouraging and complimentary, I never pushed for anything, never said a bad word, I answered every e-mail but > >never demanded more than what was offered

Sounds a very moderate relationship to me :) Perhaps she was just saying it to justify to herself that she couldn't cope ?? You sound what I would want in a breeder - someone who is there if you need them. Everyone is different - some people need a minute-by-minute hand holding person and others just someone in the background :)

Thanks Daisy.

> Sounds a very moderate relationship to me :)

Agreed. I don't think Marianne would have pushed too far, either :)

Good post DAB.  Very thought provoking response from someone who does not breed.

Is the insistence of seeing everything in black and white giving the perception that there are more problems than actually really exist ?

Well......... let's look at it this way, we have some very good breeders/owners on this website who have spent so many years giving advice and help to people both breeding and owning dogs...gosh we never seem to stop do we? ......we are constantly, every day in fact, helping people.......so the 'grey' may not start out as much, and may seem to be acceptable......but it spirals and is a very, very, very, large area of the dog world, constantly needing help and advice, due to the lacking in knowledge from both breeder and dog owner.

For me, if you walk away from your dogs breeder feeling happy, important to them, content and feeling not only as if you have the best pup in the world for you, but, you're not alone.......that the breeder is there for you, isn't that exactly how it should feel?

How many people actually feel like that? The breeders in the 'grey' often leave questions about health, rearing, training, behaviour, how often do people walk away feeling they'll do better by the pup than where they came from? I've met quite a few of those. That they will learn how to care for a dog from a forum such as this one?

Lacking from a breeder.......in any and sometimes all respects does cause problems.

As for being a dog owner........ well........I sometimes feel so sad for dogs, sometimes it breaks my heart, from seeing dogs shivering who need coats, to seeing them not getting enough exercise or mental stimulation, watching dogs quite clearly showing in their body language what they do, don't want or need, of course we all try to help, but everyone thinks they know best or a dog is just a dog. But I also see wonderful owners and very happy dogs.

The truth is a dog would like to be healthy (if possible) loved, cared for, stimulated, I guess it doesn't care what it looks like (that's more a human thing) but would like to have body and limbs to support it properly, and be able to live a good happy life, it may well get by in the 'grey' a lot of dogs do, but it would rather start off with a 'good' breeder and go to a 'good' owner..........

........so I guess the 'grey' kind of isn't a good thing for me, I'd rather give a dog everthing - 100% if possible......but that's just me.

> ........so I guess the 'grey' kind of isn't a good thing for me, I'd rather give a dog everthing - 100% if possible......but that's just me.,

Include me,  joined this forum with a rant about breeders, few replies if I remember correctly, just wish I'd found CD earlier. Not many BH people around but I've had more support from members than from our hounds breeder & learnt so much. So having learnt the hard way, never want Grey again.

Great post Carrington.

Carrington that's how I felt after my initial visit with my breeder and the next two meetings before I brought my boy home. We have regular contact and updates. She was brilliant and never made me feel as if I wasn't worthy of having one of her pups, unlike another breeder I went to see.
There is grey in any area of our lives and it's how we choose to deal with this counts. We will all never agree on everything as we are all individuals not sheep.