> You'd still need to answer the question in your own mind of why your particular dog, out of all the others of its breed, should be bred from.

From my earlier responses in this thread, my brother likes my dog and wants one and I believe this litter will be better than the many puppy farmed litters in this breed.

And now a new reason, I would like the pleasure of rearing a litter just like Brainless.

That made me think a bit. Is it not because there arnt enough decent responsible breeders around for certain breeds that the BYB get hold of a pair and go crazy trying to exploit the demand?

If maybe there was more encouragement for those that wanted to breed - even be it one off (providing all required tests were done to benefit the breeding), there wouldn't be the demand that the BYB are currently fulfilling.

Its like Morrisons couldn't feed everyone - so Tesco has filled the gap by putting shops every where.

>And now a new reason, I would like the pleasure of rearing a litter just like Brainless.

The two stillbirths, one fading puppy and one overlain puppy in my last litter took away a lot of the pleasure. A client at work has recently had a litter; the family watched excitedly from a distance as the first puppy was born - and then in horror and tears as the bitch crunched it up and ate it when it squeaked. Having a litter is unlikely to be unadulterated joy. But yes, the children have certainly learned about life and death.

The very fact that you've thought about your reasons ( and they are not all about your holiday fund) and the future of your litter separates you from a huge number of breeders.

But in choosing a specific breed of dog the buyer will expect it to resemble that breed, be the right size, coat type and temperament at the very least. If you source your stud dog from the local pet population because your brother likes him too....you could be on your way to creating a new look or type.
Ok if your family likes your Tripehounds to be short legged, sharp and bald but your buyers in the future...assuming you get 'into' this breeding lark....may feel cheated. The Tripehounds of their childhood look nothing like your new shaped ones bred by your family members. Your dogs won't be included into the gene pool because they are too off kilter to be seen as representatives of their breed. So you keep breeding and before you know it you will have a group of Tripehounds which are no longer Tripehounds they are AdminHounds.
I knew of someone who did just that....ended up selling Yorkshire terriers the size of Cockers and of a very strange ginger colour.
Customers weren't happy...a bit like selling Tamworth piglets as Kune Kunes....ok for the first few months while they are cute.

Never owned a KC dog & by type I mean a dog that looks like the breed it is meant to be & is of the correct character. So many pet breeders know nothing about the correct character(including temperament & tractability/biddability(sp) ) of the breed.

If your dog is a "working"breed do you mean working as in the working group or of the working type of the breed ? If it is the latter & you intend to breed "pet" version then the litter you breed will not improve the breed as you are not breeding for the correct purpose of the breed. If it is of the first type then again the "show/pet" type should be the be the same & your replies indicate that you are aiming to produce puppies solely for pets regardless of type.

As for HD/ED not being a precise science at the moment, it has been proven that some dogs are known hip improvers(i.e. Produce better hips in their offspring than the dams they are bred to & if they do not have 0 hips themselves better than themselves) The University of Pennsylvania have proven the using their hip assessing method selecting dogs with the best hips HAS improved the hip status of offspring. Would you breed from a dog/bitch who did not score 0 for elbows ?

You did not state BTW that the vet bills were for your other dogs, which was very misleading(probably for effect in this imaginary subject )

Question for you what are you going to do if your bitch has puppies in excess of your needs & you cannot get rid of them by 6 months of age.

Also do you have facilities to take by all/any of your puppies back at any age ? To me this is one of the most important reasons to consider before planning a litter

>my brother likes my dog and wants one and I believe this litter will be better than the many puppy farmed litters in this breed.

In what way 'better'?

And to be honest, if your brother likes your dog he'd be more sensible getting one from the same breeding/breeder, raher than have a whole litter bred specially for him, out of which he only wants one, and which might not be anything like your bitch when it grows up.

my brother likes my dog and wants one and I believe this litter will be better than the many puppy farmed litters in this breed.

This, to me, reads as if you are happy for your brother to settle for 2nd/3rd best instead of THE best.
Lets face it in some breeds almost ANYTHING is better than a puppy-farmed purchase.

No I have never bred and have no intention of ever doing so but I have managed to dissuade 3 or 4  'she needs to have pups, the kids would like it, I want a pup just like her (owner of a crossbreed!' people from going ahead.

> The two stillbirths, one fading puppy and one overlain puppy in my last litter took away a lot of the pleasure. A client at work has recently had a litter; the family watched excitedly from a distance as the first puppy was born - and then in horror and tears as the bitch crunched it up and ate it when it squeaked. Having a litter is unlikely to be unadulterated joy. But yes, the children have certainly learned about life and death.

Along with the fact that your bitch could die I agree this is something a potential breeder needs to be aware of. And depending on your outlook on life I imagine it would be enough to put some people off breeding.

Did anyone come across any figures for mortality rates in canine pregnancies ?

I didn't read the original thread and find myself wondering if anyone suggested contacting one of the relevant breed clubs for advice.  The secretaries usually know all the main active breeders and might well have put the op in touch with someone who would consider mentoring and/or maybe even providing them with a bitch on breeding terms after getting to know them.  At the very least the poster would be given lots of good advice and information.

> If maybe there was more encouragement for those that wanted to breed - even be it one off (providing all required tests were done to benefit the breeding), there wouldn't be the demand that the BYB are currently fulfilling.

As we have covered earlier, being able to find suitable homes for your puppies is a crucial factor in the breeding process. There is no point me breeding this litter if I don't have homes for the puppies lined up. But assuming that I have found places for them, then it would make sense if I place 10 puppies in good homes, there will be 10 fewer potential sales for the commercial breeders.

Multiply me by a hundred and there are now 1000 fewer customers for the commercial breeders and once it is no longer financially viable for them to breed those businesses will disappear. It won't happen overnight, the puppy farmers will still over produce until they realise there is no longer a market for their goods, but it is certainly something which in time could happen.

> The very fact that you've thought about your reasons ( and they are not all about your holiday fund)

I might throw that one in later in the interests of debate

I can see what you are saying regarding changing the look of the breed. This certainly happens with commercial breeders who use their own lines all the time. I have noticed a lot of commercial breeders act in pairs using each others male dogs on their bitches which will reduce the effect but they are still breeding from a pretty narrow gene pool.

However I don't think there is any danger of happening with my litter. I am starting with a good representative of the breed. She was bred by a knowledgeable breeder and I intend to choose an equally good stud dog. Although as I said before I am not active in dog showing or working circles so I may need some help in finding the correct dog to use.

This is only going to be a one off litter and the puppies will be endorsed so even if the resultant puppies are not particularly good examples of the breed the problem will not be perpetuated.

> If your dog is a "working"breed do you mean working as in the working group or of the working type of the breed ?

She is a working strain of Labrador.

> If it is the latter & you intend to breed "pet" version then the litter you breed will not improve the breed as you are not breeding for the correct purpose of the breed.

Would you or anyone else tell me what is the correct purpose of the labrador in today's society please ?
I believe they were originally bred to help retrieve fishing nets , but I don't think there is a huge demand for that anymore.

Health tests have been covered, I will be trying to breed the healthiest dogs possible. No intention to mislead regarding vets bills, just highlighting that money wouldn't be an issue. We have also already noted that it is important to be able to give lifetime support for the puppies and I have stated that I will be able to take any back should the need arise.

> In what way 'better'?

Fully health tested.
Better socialised.
Likely to be a better representative of the breed.
Likely to have a better temperament.
Lifetime support for puppy buyers.
And a pound cheaper

> And to be honest, if your brother likes your dog he'd be more sensible getting one from the same breeding/breeder, raher than have a whole litter bred specially for him, out of which he only wants one, and which might not be anything like your bitch when it grows up.

I refer you to the oft stated "I only breed when I want one for the show ring", there is not a huge difference in the motive for breeding a litter in either of these cases.

> This, to me, reads as if you are happy for your brother to settle for 2nd/3rd best instead of THE best.

What do you mean by "the best" and perhaps more importantly how do you know what is "the best" for my brother ?

>This is only going to be a one off litter and the puppies will be endorsed so even if the resultant puppies are not particularly good examples of the breed the problem will not be perpetuated.

No problem with that, it's your right as much as mine.
You asked advice (a good thing)
You've done what most ethical breeders do ( yet another)
And you will try to find the best homes...all very laudable..... You've contributed nothing to the gene pool good or bad so you've had a neutral effect on the population.

Go for it, I know several Top breeders who routinely have a negative impact (IMO) on their breeds.

> At the very least the poster would be given lots of good advice and information.

Wendy500 thanks for your post and suggestion.

One of the reasons for starting this thread is that the original poster in the other thread came to Champdogs for advice and information and there is as much, if not more,  collective knowledge in this forum as any breed club.

However the problem is often in how that advice is given. All too often the poster will take the responses as a personal criticism and in many cases you couldn't blame them. Nobody likes to be criticised so invariably the poster just leaves never to return and we have collectively lost the opportunity to educate.   

In starting this thread I was hoping to show that if you listen to what people have to say rather then jumping to conclusions about their motives you might be surprised.

I also think this thread has created a wealth of information which hopefully now can be collated and organised to create an article to which we can refer, in a non judgemental way, anyone who arrives at the forum with thoughts of breeding.

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed so far and look forward to continuing the debate.

A response to this post has been spawned into a new thread :

Should we give anyone seeking to breed the 3rd degree ?

What do you mean by "the best" and perhaps more importantly how do you know what is "the best" for my brother ?

You said better in your post.............I was using best as a comparative adjective as in 'good, better, best'

> As we have covered earlier, being able to find suitable homes for your puppies is a crucial factor in the breeding process. There is no point me breeding this litter if I don't have homes for the puppies lined up.

> Multiply me by a hundred and there are now 1000 fewer customers for the commercial breeders and once it is no longer financially viable for them to breed those businesses will disappear.

Unfortunately as is seen by the rescue statistics many of the people who are part of the demand for puppies and most likely customers of BYB's puppy farmers and retail pet outlets are not owners that would show sufficient long term commitment or knowledge to pass vetting by a good breeder.

Sadly my own very numerically small breed has mickey mouse and unregistered litters being sold commercially and bred by BYB's, and so often rescue picks up the pieces when they are advertised on gum tree etc, (breed rescue will not buy them, but will take them if given up) all at the adolescent stage, or sadly when elderly or a baby on the way.

My friend is fostering an 11 month old pup bought from commercial puppy supermarket that had been shut in a shed and hardly fed or watered for two months.  The owner was a very young Mum of two children and thought feeding him a couple of handfuls of wagg a day was enough.  Seems pup was bought fro boyfriend but he left and pup neglected.  he was skin and bone, and now at 16kg is well enough covered but who knows if he will make adult size.

A lady in our breed living in the Falklands was willing to buy him for the £300 asked, as only dogs over 122 months can be imported by sea to Falklands and air shipping would have been several thousands.  She ahs over the last year lost her previous members of the breed at 15+, and only another of the same breed will do.  I do hope she isn't disappointed. 

I do hope the new owner won't be disappointed as he is not typical of what the breed should be as her previous two dogs from a good/respected breeder were.  My poor friend fostering is having to do a lot of rehab work too.

> You said better in your post.............I was using best as a comparative adjective as in 'good, better, best'

I see what you mean. So in answer to your original question yes I am happy for my brother to settle for 2nd/3rd best instead of THE best.

Because he doesn't need the best looking dog in the show ring, he doesn't need a stunning dog that will pass its traits onto its progeny, he doesn't need a dog which can spend all day on a shoot. He just wants a healthy, well mannered dog which he can walk round the park.

In the same way there are far better phones than the one I have but mine does everything I need it to do.

>I refer you to the oft stated "I only breed when I want one for the show ring", there is not a huge difference in the motive for breeding a litter in either of these cases.

If your dog is good enough to breed for 'one for the showring' it's probable that it's good enough for other people to also want one for the showring as well, and will be on your waiting list of interested parties.

>He just wants a healthy, well mannered dog which he can walk round the park.

Plenty of those in general and breed rescues. No need to breed a litter specially.

In an ideal world the only difference beten the 'pet' dogs and the champions (of either show or working) would be their owners' interest in the activity. There should no difference in 'quality'.

Brainless before I reply to your post can I just ask what do you mean by

> sufficient long term commitment or knowledge to pass vetting by a good breeder

I can see an issue with a working strain as they are often high maintenance and need a lot more than a stroll around the local park. That will not suit a lot of families or peoples circumstances.

I am referring to the throw away attitude. 

People not prepared to wait for a well bred puppy because they want one now, seem to easily move onto the next thing, and having not given dog ownership enough thought find they can't or don't want to deal with the reality and long term responsibility.

Have the patience to accept (and enjoy) the trials of puppy hood, which can last for two to three years, and each stage afterward?  Continue to accept responsibility for the dog despite inevitable life changes such as new babies, kids going off to school, moving or returning to work?

Equally some buy the cheaper pup from BYB/Puppy Farm background as they say they can't afford to buy a well bred one but if they are prepared to wait and save they can afford it. 

In most breeds the breeder if they counted their time and effort is already seriously subsiding the buyer re the costs in producing the pup, often outright the pups has cost more to rear than it's selling price depending on what costs were involved in achieving the litter.

> If your dog is good enough to breed for 'one for the showring' it's probable that it's good enough for other people to also want one for the showring as well, and will be on your waiting list of interested parties.

I am already happy that I will have no problem with finding suitable homes. It was one of the first things we discussed in the thread.

> Plenty of those in general and breed rescues. No need to breed a litter specially.

This also came up earlier

"The breed I have chosen is popular and I assume there will be plenty of this breed in rescue centres. However I am not sure why should this prevent me from having a litter if I wish to do so ?"

> In an ideal world the only difference beten the 'pet' dogs and the champions (of either show or working) would be their owners' interest in the activity. There should no difference in 'quality'.

And who is to say there will be with the puppies in my litter. I am taking two good dogs who hopefully will compliment each other so it is conceivable that I may produce a dog capable of being a champion even though wanting to breed a champion is not my reason for having this litter.

> I can see an issue with a working strain as they are often high maintenance and need a lot more than a stroll around the local park. That will not suit a lot of families or peoples circumstances.

That is noted and will obviously be a major consideration in my vetting process.

When I choose the sire of my litter I will also be looking for a more laid back type of dog in order to produce a litter of puppies who are likely to be more suitable to more people.

I should add my bitch is no more high maintenance than my other two dogs, she just walks/runs 5 times as far as the others by the time she has zig zagged all over the place on our walks.

>I am already happy that I will have no problem with finding suitable homes. It was one of the first things we discussed in the thread.

My next door neighbour thought that.    She also thought that her dog was a lovely example of the breed.   She had no idea what the breed should really look like,  since it's as popular as Labrador Retrievers and just as prolifically bred,  but she's only seen pet bred versions having never been near a show hall.

Fast forward 16 weeks after the pups were born and all those who had persuaded her to breed/definitely wanted a pup,  had changed their minds and she had trouble selling the 7 pups.  There was a sign in her front window.   By 16 weeks they also needed vaccinating as no-one wanted an unvaccinated pup of that age.

Because she was not in the showing/agility loop,  she had no one to help with passing on puppy buyers.   With 20 weeks and Christmas fast approaching she even offered me a pup for  free.

I've no idea what happened to the last 4 pups.   I saw them being loaded into a large crate in her car,  then she drove off.   Never saw them again.     I do remember the look on her face when she returned.   It was enough to stop me asking any questions.

As you can see,  being a 'one off breeder'  can bring unexpected problems,  and without the support of the breed club network,  things can go seriously awry.    Leaving you with some hard choices.

So you see a need to add to the approximately 80,000 labradors(approximately split 50/50 between registered & non registered) bred on a yearly basis so you & your brother can have a puppy each ?

It would appear that nothing will stop you breeding from your bitch & of course despite endorsements nothing will stop the new owners also breeding "just one litter" from each of their puppies, so you would be having an impact on the numbers of dogs bred in the long term & there's nothing you can do to stop any of their offspring ending up with a commercial breeder that you so dislike (as most people on here also dislike)

Can you explain how you have vetted your new homes and how you think they are suitable based on the methods you have used.

I am by no means an experienced breeder, but the thing that springs to mind to me is that if you are sure you will have no problems finding good homes then you are either very optimistic, naive or have low standards!! Working labs could easily have a litter of 12. that requires a lot of friends who think your dog is cute :-)
Also, I like working labs, they are very different to the show type labs in a lot of ways (more active mentally and physically) and imo are not suitable for someone who does not realise the difference. I think you will be stuck between the 2, if it is someone who 'just' wants a lab then they should not be taking on a working type. If they are like me and actively prefer a working type then I would not buy from someone like you, I would buy from a breeder who works their dogs, not a pet owner who thought it would be fun.

And yes, if this was a genuine question and not a contrived debate I would probably have worded it a little more carefully!

We have covered vetting earlier in the thread starting here.

I think I have already answered all the questions posed in the last few posts, however if you have read what I already posted and you need further clarification feel free to ask.

Dill thanks for your example. As I have said earlier I have plans to create a reference document and real world examples are always useful to include.

> No problem with that, it's your right as much as mine. You asked advice (a good thing). You've done what most ethical breeders do ( yet another). And you will try to find the best homes...all very laudable..... You've contributed nothing to the gene pool good or bad so you've had a neutral effect on the population. Go for it, I know several Top breeders who routinely have a negative impact (IMO) on their breeds.

Sorry missed this one earlier, too busy defending myself

Thanks very much for your support. I hope you will be around to give me support and advice when I get to the vetting process and with the other issues which are bound to arise.

That post covers how you can advertise and find people but not the actual method of what questions you are asking and what answers you would expect ?

It is so important to get to know the prospective new owners and build a relationship that should last throughout the life expectancy of any puppies and beyond.

And to be honest, if your brother likes your dog he'd be more sensible getting one from the same breeding/breeder, raher than have a whole litter bred specially for him, out of which he only wants one, and which might not be anything like your bitch when it grows up.

Such a sensible, and accurate answer.   Totally agree that this is not reason enough to be producing a litter.

> That post covers how you can advertise and find people but not the actual method of what questions you are asking and what answers you would expect ?

Read further down

"Being new to this I know I won't necessarily know everything to watch out for but I am sure I can draw on the assistance of forum members to help me choose the best homes (but that can wait for another thread)."

"I have common sense, I can read people pretty well and I am sure there plenty of capable forum members who can advise of the things to look out for (think of yourselves as a collective mentor)."

I have never said I have the all the right answers, just the right intentions. I am here to learn.

> Totally agree that this is not reason enough to be producing a litter.

If you read the whole thread you will see it is not the only reason.

> So you see a need to add to the approximately 80,000 labradors(approximately split 50/50 between registered & non registered) bred on a yearly basis so you & your brother can have a puppy each ?

If I don't breed the dog for my brother, then someone else will have to (putting aside the topic of him taking an older dog from a rescue which is yet another whole topic for discussion).

> It would appear that nothing will stop you breeding from your bitch

I have taken on board everything said so far in this thread and you are right I have heard nothing as of yet that has dissuaded me from continuing. Why do you seem so keen on preventing me from having this litter ?

> despite endorsements nothing will stop the new owners also breeding

Agreed, but that is true of any endorsed dog placed in any home by any breeder. I will also be carefully vetting and choosing the new owners, so I am hopeful they will at least come back to me for advice if they do consider breeding.

>If I don't breed the dog for my brother, then someone else will have to

Someone already has, and in a breed like labradors there will certainly be one available when he wants one.

> Someone already has, and in a breed like labradors there will certainly be one available when he wants one.

I don't deny that. But why should that preclude me from breeding my litter ? Or alternatively who would you allow to breed a litter of labradors and why them and not me ?

> It depends on how big a picture you want to see. Everyone can form their own opinion of whether they believe it's the right thing to do, but that's a different matter.

Indeed and I think I would be right in saying that in terms of the big picture you are being quite narrow minded. Choosing to ignore the positive aspects of this proposed litter and just focusing on one thing that you consider negative.

The demand for "perfection" in your eyes, for me to do just as you would, means you are blinkering yourself to the bigger picture.

I would also suggest that is one reason you have this seemingly huge divide in dog breeding and all the associated problems that come with it. The self-appointed "reputable" breeders on one side and the BYB and puppy farmers on the other, with not a lot in between.

The more I think about it the more I am actually staggered that the main reason you won't endorse this litter is because it is being bred to provide a puppy for my brother rather than one for the show ring or the field.

Now I know I don't actually need your endorsement in order to breed this litter, however if I want to gain from the experience of the members of this forum I at least need the backing of a few.

And if I can't get that collective backing because I am not doing it exactly as they would, you are right, I will go off in a strop and breed anyway. And as a consequence I then won't be able to start that discussion about how to vet potential purchasers. Mistakes will be made and you can then add me to that list, in your eyes, of bad breeders and the gap between "good" and "bad" grows ever wider.

I suppose those who would respond would hypothetically ask themselves am I promoting responsible breeding here and that may be where the difference of opinion comes in. You believe as you have found owners, will take any back if necessary, will health test, vet owners and be there for owners in years to come that is responsible. Others believe you should breed to improve the breed or for their own lines in the working showing arena.

I can understand that if you have a great dog and others also think so you would like to replicate that however that is where my knowledge ends as then we start looking at the chances of that happening and to what extent if you breed and I suppose they would say why not return to your breeder who will more than likely have pups or a waiting list. You then say but I want to breed and can afford to so once again it is the dichotomy of is this responsible when there are already so many of your breed available. 

I do think that it is a very valid point that by educating people we may well improve things and lessen irresponsible and risky breeding and at the very least stop people going to BYBs

I had a close call on my first visit to champdogs and was told this really sounds like a BYB. / farm so I can say they definitely educated me that morning. I have to also say had I not been told so frankly I may well have ended up going.

> Others believe you should breed to improve the breed or for their own lines in the working showing arena.

And this perhaps is the point I am challenging the most here. It is fine for those who are breeding for their own lines to produce Labrador litters despite there already being a surplus of puppies, yet I would be deemed to be irresponsible by some if I were to do the same.

There will be plenty of people sat around show rings who like to kid themselves that they are "improving the breed" with the litters they produce. However I am sure their primary reason for breeding is in pursuit of their hobby of trying to win a rosette and make up a Champion.

And as I said before if the dogs I produce are "better" (what ever that means) than 51% of the Labrador population then I will actually have improved the breed.

A lady who lives near me has been breeding Labradors for over 40 years, she was amongst the first to do health testing when the KC came on board the then ISDS/BVA eye scheme & then the BVA original hip assessment scheme(which was instigated by the GSD League & Club of GB) & now the hip & elbow scoring & DNA testing. Her dogs over the years have done well in the show ring & also act as shooting dogs as well as the vast majority being much loved pets.
Her dogs now are the same as when I first met her all those years ago & her careful breeding program has kept her "type"of dog the same with improved health status. Their temperaments are superb, not overly enthusiastic, calm & steady & very biddable.
She only breeds once a year at the most & doesn't breed from all her champions,  some retire to pet homes with previous puppy buyers to live on forever homes(after being neutered)rather continuing to be a kennel dog. All her puppies are reared in her home & she always has a couple of oldies living in.
She does not have the modern show type nor the working type, hers are dual purpose as all such dogs should be.
You are looking for a more laid back stud ? Why isn't your bitch calm & steady ? You should really be looking for a dog that produces calm & steady puppies to any type of bitch, but really shouldn't your bitch have a correct breed temperament as she will have a much greater influence over the character of her puppies than the stud dog.

So we are now getting to what breeders should deem responsible in terms of CD. That's good at least they know what the mission statement actually dictates. As we all know everyones views on responsible can be different.

(I still think breeders should be able to post their own opinions / views)

I think it good that each response really challenged your reasons behind wanting to breed. However, if there is a guide written on this I would also include that you should be seeking a mentor to guide you through this in conjunction with the advice on the forum; and as I have heard so many times on the forum, recommend you approach your breeder for this and for assistance in choosing the stud, whelping and vetting any owners.

>Indeed and I think I would be right in saying that in terms of the big picture you are being quite narrow minded. Choosing to ignore the positive aspects of this proposed litter and just focusing on one thing that you consider negative.

Which one thing have you decided that I consider to be negative? The fact that a hugely over-populated breed with a large number of rescue organisations is going to have another one-off litter because it'd be a nice thing to do makes me narrow-minded? I see.

>There will be plenty of people sat around show rings who like to kid themselves that they are "improving the breed" with the litters they produce.

There will indeed. And there will plenty of people who kid themselves that their one-off litter, from dogs that excel neither in the show-ring nor the field, will be better.

>The demand for "perfection" in your eyes, for me to do just as you would, means you are blinkering yourself to the bigger picture.

The 'perfect' dog will never exist, but I believe all breeders should aim high, not for 'good enough'.

>The more I think about it the more I am actually staggered that the main reason you won't endorse this litter is because it is being bred to provide a puppy for my brother rather than one for the show ring or the field.

That's the main reason you've posted; that your brother likes your bitch so you think it would be nice for you to try to provide one for him. However the person best able to provide one like her is the person who bred her, so I'd suggest that's where he makes his first enquiries.

If you were involved with a minority, vulnerable breed, my response would be different. However the KC had to ask staffie breeders to cut down on breeding because of the vast over-population, at figures less than that of labradors, so it's much harder for people to justify a casual litter of pet puppies.

Do you think if the topic title had been a "Why should I breed a litter of puppies?" instead of the defensively challenging "Why shouldn't I breed a litter of puppies?" the questions asked of you might have been different?

Why do you want to have a litter of pups?

This question was asked right at the top of the thread.  Sadly it got bundled up with another question and didn't really get answered until this:

"I have a few reasons, one of them is that my brother has always liked my dog and he is now in a position to have one of his own. I know he will give it a great home"

Then much much later "And now a new reason, I would like the pleasure of rearing a litter just like Brainless"

Many breeders will breed for themselves, for work or for the show ring as their primary reason.  There are probably many other small reasons, secondary to that, which they use to justify it to themselves, to their friends or to their family but the desire to improve their lines or the breed in general sits first and foremost in their mind.  I'm relatively comfortable with this idea even though I know several breeders who, to my mind, make no improvements to the breed whatsoever but I can recognise that they are trying, and that they make the best decisions they can.

I'm much less comfortable with those who wish to make some money, deny the health risks to their dog, make choices based on convenience rather than common sense or science, or those who just blithely assume mother nature will take care of the messy bits.  I get enormously cross when I read of all the things that have gone wrong because the breeder didn't do his or her homework, or underestimated the amount of work involved, or didn't take any time off work.  I'm sick to the back teeth of reading about the situations  that have arisen due to poor vetting of prospective puppy owners.  And don't get me started on the puppy buyers who blithely buy from any old person without doing their homework.

If just one person a month stops to think about how hard it is to get a successful mating, let alone raise a litter of sometimes up to 15 puppies, and find homes for them: then thank God we have members who are lining up to tell you NOT to do it.

I've said it before and I'll say it again "Why shouldn't I breed a litter of puppies" is the WRONG QUESTION.  Why you shouldn't breed a litter of puppies is completely different to why John, Mabel or Derek shouldn't breed and it will be different for every single one of their 15 dogs!!  Let's please ask a different question and give a checklist of things to consider - something that is relevant to everyone and also refers them to their breed guidelines regarding age, health tests etc as well as talking about the general issues such as taking time off work, equipment needed, reading lists, mentoring etc.  In it's current form I'd guess that more than 75% of our readers will dismiss this thread as being irrelevant to them

>Do you think if the topic title had been a "Why should I breed a litter of puppies?" instead of the defensively challenging "Why shouldn't I breed a litter of puppies?" the questions asked of you might have been different?

Further to this: when you specifically ask for a list of reasons why you shouldn't breed a litter of puppies it's a bit unreasonable to then castigate people who give you a list of the negatives you've asked for! If you want a list of supportive, positive reasons why you should breed a litter of puppies then perhaps that's the question you should have asked ...

> She does not have the modern show type nor the working type, hers are dual purpose as all such dogs should be.

So in order to "improve the breed" should I be aiming to breed this dual purpose type of Labrador ?

> Why isn't your bitch calm & steady ?

Although you can read that question one of two ways I think that you are assuming my bitch isn't calm and steady rather than asking me if she is calm and steady. Please correct me if I am wrong ?

> but really shouldn't your bitch have a correct breed temperament

Again you could be asking a question, but I think you are assuming there is something is incorrect with her temperament. Is that what you think based on the fact I said I was looking for a "more laid back stud" ?

If so then that is a pretty big leap and quite a negative assumption to make.

> as she will have a much greater influence over the character of her puppies than the stud dog.

I wasn't aware of that, and I am slightly surprised as I thought both parents would have an equal influence. So assuming it is correct (and I am sure someone will point out if it is not) thank you I have learnt something. Which in the end is what I am here to do.