Hello all,

I have had my inspection by an assessor for my Assured breeder scheme membership. They are very happy with everything except the fact that up until now I have not had a vet check on puppies before they leave (this is due to my worry about picking up infection during visit not cost) and also that my litter are not microchipped before leaving. I have never had my pups microchipped before leaving at such a young age...I do feel uncomfortable doing so when even the vets advise waiting until second jab.

Can I ask what you ladies do? If you do go along with the KC requirements and microchip your pups before they leave how do you ID each pup to microchip? ( I have a same colour breed that all look very similar....I can tell them apart at 8 weeks but would hate to have a mix up and I really do not like collars on pups for ID. Am thinking of taking a course to microchip myself so I can do each puppy as they leave......

> Can I ask what you ladies do?

I left the scheme.

Too much one size fits all approach now that UKAS accreditation has been added.  I don't believe you can standardise so many things without interfering in a breeders choices of how they keep their dogs and rear their litters.  For example you don't like ID collars, I do, but use coloured wool tied round their necks from birth.

Vet checking puppies.  the practicalities.

What format should such checks take, should there be a separate report on each individual, what aspects are expected to be covered?

I am sure I could design a form for my vet to use and give copies to owners.

The deal breaker for me is when should this vetting be done. 

If done on all the litter at one time, then some pups may not go to new homes for several weeks after the vetting, so the report becomes irrelevant.

It will need to be in the short time between the permanent identification (oh yeah I too don't chip but do tattoo), and first pups leaving. 

Oh yes I won't happily take pups to the vet surgery other than for their vaccinations, and as I don't like to start mine until 10 weeks, that normally would be for the new owners to undertake..

Mine have to be microchipped for identification before they have their hearing tests at 6 weeks, so it's not an issue.

Is that a new requirement,(I assume it's permanent ID, so tattoos acceptable?) as a friend used to get her collies hearing tested but they were never tattooed until later.

All our pups are vet checked and microchipped before leaving for new homes, its a personal choice as I also get the vet to take time to listen to the heart for any detectable murmurs.

Yes that's my issue with the ABS removing so much personal choice and requiring so much extra red tape telling you what kind of records you should keep for your own dogs, yet they don't keep them.

So much paperwork is required to be produced, I'd like to know how those who don't use computers or don't have printers are supposed to manage, or is dog breeding now only for the computer savvy??

I found it took ages to produce all the advice notes, and so often the printer would start o play up with blobs or gaps grr!!!

So much of the info not breed specific, could be more easily covered in a book list, and all the leaflets available at vets food suppliers etc.

From next year all pups have to be chipped by 8 weeks anyway, before being sold, by law, and from 1st of March this year in Wales (I assume the Welsh law will include pups as well but haven't checked). I have always chipped mine before they are sold, I took the course to be able to do it myself and buy cheap chips (no pun intended) -well worth it. (I have done pups already at 3-4 weeks old, toy pups, and it is no problem at all. They object MUCH more to being vaccinated as the vaccine stings.) Even if you do not though, you can get a new scanner for around £50 now and easily check all chips. I always scan pups before they go to show the buyer the number matches that on the paperwork.

With my toybreed they are always fully vaccinated before they go so they automatically see the vet, but I will have to start taking my large breed to the vet which yes will be more awkward. I am considering either asking the vet to check the pups in our van or come to the house.

As my puppies can be born with any length of tail, they have to be seen by a vet before they are 3 days old. My last litter went with their mum straight after birth as she had retained placentas. I use id collars on them from an early age and my friend comes to my house at 7 weeks old to microchip them. I take puppies to my vet the day before they are going to their new homes to be vet-checked and letters issued, including tail status to prove the bob tails were born that way. This can mean 3-4 trips to the vets but I always negotiate a price per puppy with the practice owner before I visit.

Thanks for all replies.....can I ask those that microchip before pups leave...how does it work paperwork wise? Do the pups get registered on petlog in the breeders name and address and then have to be changed by new owner?  or does the breeder hold back paperwork to pass on to puppy owners?

I microchip my own puppies before they leave so register them with new owners details.  Although, I think I read somewhere that this will not be acceptable.

The breeder I bought my pup from a year and a half ago, had all the pups microchipped at 7.5 weeks in their name. I then had to send off a piece of paper to Petlog to change it to my name. I think there was a small charge, can't quite remember.

I had a litter chipped at the end of 2014 and was able to register them directly in the new owners' names. However, from 2016, when the new microchipping law comes in, all puppies will have to be chipped before they leave the breeder and be registered in the breeder's name. It's a shame that Petlog don't allow online transfers, as that would have meant the breeder would be able to do the transfer as each pup is collected, in much the same way we do with the free insurance.

Mine Was the same as Jodi but I believe I did both KC and pet log on line. You also need to bring the paperwork to the vet to evidence you are the new owner when you take your pup in the 1st week.

Reading that you can't do it on line left me thinking I hadn't updated it. I have looked back and although I can't see that I did it on line I definitely have a couple of emails from tracer/pet log one includes confirmation and my cert.

My pups are well ready to go to their new homes at 8 weeks. A Terrier breed by that time there is in fighting which in my opinion is no longer good for the pups development.

My vet will chip the puppy I am keeping at 8 weeks but I was really surprised in my last litter of 10 that mine was the only one done at that age because the new owners vet would not do it that early. One was quoted that the vet did not believe it was a good thing that the pups first visit to them  included  micro chipping as they would get upset. I found that bizarre as mine do not bat an eyelid when it is done by my vet. If my bitch has taken I think this time I will get them all chipped before they leave as will have to get used to that idea sometime anyway.

Last time I also took them all for a vet check. Something I had never done before. My vet gave a scribbled note to say he had checked hearts, eyes etc on that day but would not say much more than that. It did not seem to be something her was used to doing and I have been with him for years.

So does anyone know how it works if they have to be registered in the breeders name.......surely paperwork is not back by the time pups leave ( I wouldn't want to chip before 6 to 7 weeks) ....so you wouldn't have documents back by the time pups leave?

It's like a carbon form with stickers with the chip / bar code on it. The breeder keeps one and the new owner the other. I don't know if I sent mine but I have emails confirming my details are now on the database and a cert. to that effect.

Have you looked on the website it might give you a guide?

>So does anyone know how it works if they have to be registered in the breeders name....

I registered mine directly into the new owners' name when the pup was collected.

This is the reply I got when i raised the question with Petlog.

As a registered Chipper and breeder i normally chip my pups the day they leave at 7-8 weeks and register them directly to the new owners. Under the new registration does this mean, i now have to chip them, in my name weeks before they leave to ensure the paperwork is here. Thus enabling me to transfer the pups into the new owners name and address at point of sale.

Pet Log Reply

Thank you for your enquiry.

Whilst we are progressing with a lot of work in the background in preparation for 2016 we are not in a position to sign off all our new processes. We are making final adjustments and once complete we will communicate to all our customers.

You raise very key issues so I have forwarded these to our Business Management team so we can ensure these are answered clearly .

Please bear with us and we will have a Q and A that we can communicate to all. In the meantime please refer to the Q&As on our Website as some of these may answer some of your questions.

I need to microchip my pups for their legal paperwork for docking. I have collars on each pup and they are identified by colour / numbers. The vet comes to my home to microchip at 6 weeks ( too young to chip when docking takes place ), each puppy has a folder for documentation and this document is coded to puppies colour/ number. My vet does a health check done and vet signs the form I have printed out and notes if any defects or concerns identified. Microchip paperwork completed in name of new owner. 
I then go on MYKC and add the microchip number to the puppies registration so that when the new owner does transfer the microchip number is included on registration papers

If you register your chips online it's cheaper so there is no paperwork to pass on.  I will continue to chip my pups and put them in new owners name when they leave me

Ells-Bells I think once the new law is in force you will have to reg them to your name first as it is expected that by chipping all pups before they leave will identify the breeder for life.
I wonder how many BYB pups will be chipped ? I am sure they would rather not be identifyable !!
Aileen

This thread is about the ABS requirements but it's possible Petlog have interpreted Keesy's question as being about the 2016 legislation being brought in.

The KC ABS Rule 4.4 now reads "Assured Breeders must permanently identify breeding stock owned or offered at stud by microchip, tattoo or a DNA profile. This is checked automatically when litters are registered. Puppies must also be permanently identified prior to sale unless otherwise advised in writing by a vet. The permanent identification of dogs must be carried out by a trained operator. Where dogs or puppies are microchipped or tattooed, the relevant number must be registered on a national database."

Breeders who are registered implanters would be chipping their puppies within this rule as they are all trained before registration.

The difficult part comes with  "Where dogs or puppies are microchipped or tattooed, the relevant number must be registered on a national database.”  I see Keesy's point here as the ABS require "Puppies must also be permanently identified prior to sale"  It's not reasonable to expect breeders who are not Implanters to achieve this if the documentation is to be available at the point of sale. Puppies would have to be taken to a Veterinary Surgery before weaning for micro chipping. Not many breeders know the new owners of their puppies at five to six weeks old in order to transfer microchip details at that age. However if a puppy left the breeder with the micro chip documentation not transferred into the purchasers ownership there is no guarantee they would do so. Then the details would remain in the breeders name which defies the reason for micro chipping.

I chip my puppies and transfer them to their new owners by the same method as Ells-Bells and I believe the full Implanter details are recorded as well as the new owner. So it would be easy for the database owners to include a box to tick to make it mandatory to declare if the Implanter was also the Breeder.

I registered mine directly into the new owners' name when the pup was collected.

That's what I do too, but as others have said, from next year this will no longer be legal -the pups must be registered in your name first. The KC have issued a press release about how it will affect breeders:
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/press-releases/2014/november/petlog-and-kennel-club-highlight-breeders%E2%80%99-responsibilities-following-new-microchip-regulations/

> wonder how many BYB pups will be chipped ? I am sure they would rather not be identifyable !!

Absolutely zero, in my estimation... I wonder how this is going to be enforced? 
I'm sure the Govt has no idea just how many puppies are being bred for fun or money in homes across the country.

Edit to add: Which microchipping course is recommended? High time I learned how to chip.

The government have confirmed they  are not pushing enforcement at all, have advised a soft approach. 

Experience in Northern Ireland where it has been mandatory since 2012 and licensed since 1983 shows poor compliance.

.

MsT I went to Pet Detect when I learnt to chip. It's quite a few years ago though.

This is a very interesting subject...  I'm a trainer and run puppy classes and also occasionally breed a litter - which I would love to be able to chip before they leave me. 

I bought a puppy last year, and she was chipped by her breeder and registered in the breeder's name, and I could then go online to edit the details and add mine in - the breeder left it to me to do that.  The breeder had put her details in the 'extra contacts' or something (can't quite remember) box, and the idea was she wanted new owners to leave her details there so she would always be traceable for the dog, but to add mine in the owner's box.  Now, this was all fine and good - except it was possible to edit hers out.  Once you own the dog, you own access to the chip and what is recorded against it and can edit it and remove the breeder's details if you want to.  So it is by no means a permanent way of attaching dog to breeder, but is definitely better than nothing.

I hope to breed a litter next year, and would very much like to be able to chip them myself and decide what info to put on the chip and make sure my own details are on there.

I have looked at a few courses, but they all seemed to be working to different chip protocols or something and I got scared and decided not to go ahead in case I did the wrong one - is there a course which is so mainstream it would be a safe bet, in that way?

Secondly, whenever I looked at the courses, you had to come to the course with 2 animals you could chip.  All my dogs are already chipped.  I don't want to use clients' dogs or puppies because we all know these will be the first animals I'll have chipped and I don't want them to think I'm experimenting on their dogs!! 

This has been a big problem and prevented me from being able to do a course in the past!!!  It got to the point where I wondered about buying 2 rabbits from a pet shop, chipping them and returning them to the pet shop afterwards LOL!!!!!  I am still really stuck on this one.  Are there any courses which either don't have this requirement or where the organisers can provide animals for you to chip??  Thanks.

I had my last litter chipped by a DEFRA registered chipper. He came to the house and chipped 8 puppies for £60. He left me a copy of the registration document with a bar code on for each puppy. And also some spare peal off barcodes for the new owners.  We put their litter name on each form, and I had a folder ready for each puppy. He also kept a copy of each form and bar code.
As each puppy left for their new home I emailed him the new owners details and contact information and he registered them online. My details were on as a contact.
All worked out well, as each puppy was registered to the new owner and none had to pay to transfer the details.

> The breeder had put her details in the 'extra contacts' or something (can't quite remember) box, and the idea was she wanted new owners to leave her details there so she would always be traceable for the dog, but to add mine in the owner's box.  Now, this was all fine and good - except it was possible to edit hers out.  Once you own the dog, you own access to the chip and what is recorded against it and can edit it and remove the breeder's details if you want to.  So it is by no means a permanent way of attaching dog to breeder, but is definitely better than nothing.<br />

Exactly, which is why I have always ear tattooed my litters, and do object to being told they mulct now be chipped (so I'll have to do both).  In the past I have always suggested the new owners get the dog chipped in addition to the tattoo.

but next year that won't be allowed they will first have to be registered to you and then transferred to new ownership

Rabid...I have the same concern. The only way would be for me to take the course at home when I have a litter and chip my own litter as part of the course. I am just not comfortable 'practising' for the first time on my 6 to 7 week old pups! But all my other dogs and friends dogs are already chipped.

It just seems such an odd requirement from the ABS scheme when many vets advise waiting until second jab, hence older pup before chipping. I've usually waited until my youngsters have pretty much finished growing until I chip them just before health testing for ID and the idea of chipping pups before 7 weeks doesn't sit well with me at all.

> I have looked at a few courses, but they all seemed to be working to different chip protocols or something and I got scared and decided not to go ahead in case I did the wrong one - is there a course which is so mainstream it would be a safe bet, in that way?

Been looking into this today. Things are changing, or in fact, have just changed. To microchip dogs, you must now have do course that is LANTRA certificated and I *think* also pay an annual fee as a certified registered dog chipper. This is because of the new laws coming in next year. I can understand why - it is of course to prevent any Tom, Dick or Harry buying the equipment online, chipping their puppies and perhaps falsifying paperwork etc.

Those who were trained to chip before this year will still be permitted to microchip dogs under a "grandfather law".

So it will cost me a great deal more to train to chip now, than it would have done a year ago!

However I could do a non-LANTRA course and still chip cats, rabbits and ferrets, as the LANTRA certificate does not extend to those.

It just seems such an odd requirement from the ABS scheme when many vets advise waiting until second jab, hence older pup before chipping

Those vets are really very ill advised, or have never even tried chipping earlier. There really IS no problem, and from next year it won't be legal to wait, anyway. It's far more upsetting for pups to be vaccinated, yet most of us don't think twice about getting that done. To me, this "wait until pup is older before chipping" is as old fashioned advice as "Puppies should not be trained until 6 months old."

Those who were trained to chip before this year will still be permitted to microchip dogs under a "grandfather law".

So it will cost me a great deal more to train to chip now, than it would have done a year ago!

Interesting, I had no idea of this. Shame it wasn't publicised so that those wanting to take the course could do it before it changed.

I started a new job yesterday in a local vets, asked today how this would be enforced and they don't know. So a dog is scanned, no chip, then what, they can't force the owner to get their dog chipped so who do they report it to? How is that enforced? So many unanswered questions which leads me to believe that many people will quite possibly carry on doing what they are.
Can't understand why you wouldn't chip your pet and this is regular people who love and adore them, not talking those who see their dogs as status animals.

Four years ago my vet would microchip at the first visit, puppy 8 weeks old, now they won't do it until the second visit at 10 weeks.

Seems to me it's "fashionable" at the minute to wait......I hope they change their protocol for when the law changes and don't expect breeders to keep puppies those extra two weeks....

I  plan to have my puppies chipped either by my own hand if my training is completed by then or by my vet. I will have them registered to my name and let the new owners change the details themselves as well as arrange for vaccinations to be carried out as I believe that the new owners should take some responsibility themselves.
I will also have them vet checked at around 2 weeks old and to avoid any risk of infection, well, as best I can, I shall take the very first appointment of the day.

I joined ABS before I even had my first litter as I wanted to "do it right" from the off, but just as I was about to register my puppies, they changed the rules and upped the prices to what I considered to be an unacceptable charge of £30 per year....meaning they had upped it by 300% and the only difference was that the inspections were planned instead of "spot checks", which to my mind gives people a chance to "stage" conditions.  Also, as I won't be breeding very often, its hardly worth me joining for £30....I didn't mind £10, but I'm not paying £30 for effectively nothing.

Any breeder worth their salt has all the relevant paperwork and advice sheets etc anyway without the KC forcing them to do it, so it's a pointless exercise.

Actually £30 is the first increase I believe it will go up by stages to £60

inspections were planned instead of "spot checks", which to my mind gives people a chance to "stage" conditions.

There are most certainly things you cannot "stage" -such as dogs' general condition, temperament, your fencing etc.

Seems to me it's "fashionable" at the minute to wait......I hope they change their protocol for when the law changes and don't expect breeders to keep puppies those extra two weeks....

Indeed. I accidentally jabbed myself with a microchip needle twice again yesterday.  Must be because my eye sight is getting worse. I was chipping some dogs for a friend and I didn't have my glasses on, it's only close up I can't see well, and twice when putting the cap back onto the used needle before disposing of it I jabbed myself by accident. Again I did not feel a thing, it wasn't until I noticed my fingers felt sticky I realised I was bleeding. The needle is so incredibly sharp.  I was chipping adult dogs that didn't really know me and I'd done them before their owner even noticed I was doing it (she was filling the paperwork in), the dogs didn't seem to notice either. Pups are no different.

Fencing? Well that would be me counted out the as we have none. 5 gardens of neighbours all have open gardens. our dogs only use one patch to go on but out territory technically has no boundary

Fencing? Well that would be me counted out the as we have none. 5 gardens of neighbours all have open gardens. our dogs only use one patch to go on but out territory technically has no boundary

You can't seriously consider that to be responsible? It's a joke, right?

It seemed fair enough that it was one of the things the inspector wanted to know about. That our garden was secure.

They checked my fencing too, and took photos......she commented that it was nice and secure so there wouldn't be any issues with it.

No I was being serious? 5 gardens are side by side with a boundary around the whole lot (so dogs can't escape onto a road) but there is no fencing between each garden so technically, it would be possible for my dogs to use all 5 gardens However they don't,  but purely because they have seen an imaginary boundary. If that makes sense. It's safe as in they can't escape, but technically my garden is not entirely enclosed. I suppose if they (the kc assessors) view it as a shared garden then it is totally enclosed. However, it's not technically a shared gardenot as we all have our own patch. It's also not permanent as we are in the process of buying (after money from a divorce comes through) but if they came to assess us at this address, I would imagine we would fail.

Just out of interest, how do the Accredited Breeder Scheme (or Assured or whatever they are now) assess breeders who are geographically in remote places?  Say you live on a Scottish island or something?

They say they want to check all breeders now before listing litters - if you join, can they really arrange an assessment in a remote location at short notice?!

One of my clients (behavioural case) chose an Assured Breeder because they thought this meant they would be guaranteed the breeder was 'good'.  It was a Weimaraner breeder... living in a tower block in central London!!!!???  No garden?!? 

The whole thing seems bonkers to me, so I think I'm with Brainless on this one - but ID-ing pups before they leave seems a good idea, nevertheless.

One of my clients (behavioural case) chose an Assured Breeder because they thought this meant they would be guaranteed the breeder was 'good'.  It was a Weimaraner breeder... living in a tower block in central London!!!!???  No garden?!? 

Are you certain this was a KC Assured Breeder that had been inspected? (The Mickey Mouse registry has their own "scheme" to make it sound good.) I cannot for my life see somebody in a tower block being accepted. They could have got away with it before last year when it became compulsory to have passed an assessment before you are able to register puppies -now they cannot.