Well it begins again! My elderly couple have bought another puppy. They have had him 11 days now. She kept very quiet about him as she had told me the last time that she was having a puppy delivered and showed me the advert. Of course the first thing I did when I left was phone them and tell them not to come or I would be reporting them to DWP and Inland Revenue. So the crafty madam kept quiet about this one. I walked in 11 days ago to be greeted by this puppy and the words "I've bought you something else to love and worry about" He's a Jack Russel type and appears to be fairly healthy apart from an ear infection which Mike my vet discovered when he came to the house to vaccinate him. Mary had asked him to phone me as she did not think she would be able to administer the drops herself!. So I had to go and get them from the surgery. I've given his ears a good clean and his ears are looking better. He's into everything as a normal puppy should be lol. Despite my telling myself that I will not get attached to him I know that one day he will end up coming home with me. Housetraining is yet again hopeless and he "goes" wherever he happens to be. She even said yesterday that she should not have had him! Little Charlie spoilt her, he peed and pooped all over the place but he was not on the  same level of mischeif as this one lol.He is eating proper food and she says she is not feeding him anything else. Oh well "Watch this space" as they say.

Oh dear!!!!!

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Oh dear!!!!!

That's putting it mildly lol. After the almighty row I had with her a few weeks ago when she said she could look after a puppy as well as looking after hubby, I am being tough with her. She has not made breakfast for them in weeks but when this puppy turned up she began making the breakfasts again (to prove the point that she could cope). Well I am letting her do it even though I know she would dearly love me to tell her to sit down and I will do it lol. I refuse to clear up after puppy, not even the paper tissues that he finds and rips to shreds. It's the only way to deal with her. 11 days and already she is finding it hard going. Over the next few months he is going to be doing a lot of damage. Then she may realise that she really cannot have a young energetic puppy.

Oh no. :( Couldn't she at least have gone for an adult dog.......

To be honest a puppy was the best option for her as any adult that she may have had could have had all sorts of problems. It could be a biter or destuctive, any number of things really. These people will lie about why they have to part with their "loving pet" just to be rid of it, and a decent rescue would refuse to give her a dog because of her health. She really is not up to looking after a dog. Plus she knows that I could not bring an adult into my home, my lot are good with puppies but one of my boys would not take kindly to a strange adult swearing at him in his own home and to be frank I have enough with 2 of my boys hating each other to even think of adding more fuel to the fire.

Plus she knows that I could not bring an adult into my home,

Ah but might it not have helped to change her mind to not get a dog at all had she known she would NOT have you to fall back on?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Ah but might it not have helped to change her mind to not get a dog at all had she known she would NOT have you to fall back on?

Oh how I wish lol. It's one of the reasons she wanted a puppy as in the big row we had a few weeks ago I pointed out the problems she may face with an adult and she was adamant that she wanted a puppy.. She can be very childlike in her rationalising. A petulent child describes her very well. Her nephews wife and her own sister call her a spoilt brat! Apparently she has always been the same, she wants something and keep on till she gets her own way. 

Hang in there! It sounds like you have the measure of her. I can't believe you are going through this again so soon.

Why oh why if they must have a pet don't they get a cat. 

At least a cat doesn't need training or walking.  Training to use a litter box and feeding would be so much easier than everything involved with a pup.

Got there this morning to find Toby had chewed through the husbands night bag, luckily it was in a bowl so damage was limited. Oh and Mary had put the pups ear drops in husbands ears!!. My son says he now knows why I have grey hairs lol. The next few weeks are going to be interesting!

And the pity of it is, she might be ok with an elderly dog that just wants to snooze quietly and be a companion on the sofa!

Where is she getting them from?? I did the same as you for a very dear elderly friend who'd been in my breed for years. She acquired 2 vallhunds during one of her "good" spells which I ended up having at home with my pack on a regular basis when she couldn't cope with them. My reasoning was if they gave her a meaning to live I was happy to help out. Unfortunately she ended up in a nursing home and the dogs went to live with a daughter who eventually had to hold up her hands and say she couldn't cope, she worked full time and they were a real handful.
Within a day of asking for help we, as a vallhund community, had found them a wonderful home together, where they are now. Yes, she probably shouldn't have had them but I could see, as a long time dog owner, why she did.
Well done for your continuing support of this lady (even though I'm sure you feel like pulling out your hair!!)

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Where is she getting them from??

Adverts in the local evening paper. The decent rescues will not give her a dog, which although I understand why, if they had an oldie who just needed to have a cosy home for it's last couple of yrs then she would be ideal, especially as I am there 6 days a week to keep an eye on things. But no she wants puppies and will not accept that a young energetic puppy is too much for her. And a lot of these adverts are from people who are only in it for the money. No breeder that cares about their puppies would ever sell her one. So I will do what I can to make sure he is looked after properly till the day comes when I end up with him lol.  And yes I could pull my hair out lol!!

> Where is she getting them from??

Anyone can get hold of pretty much whatever they want at the drop of a hat.  Freeads, (online or paper versions), puppy selling sites, Facebook... I'm on a couple of FB animal groups atm and on one of them right now, you can take your pick of three or four different litters of AMBs, a newborn litter of staffies, 'maltalier' pups, and two litters of huskies.  And a few older dogs needing homes.  Then there are quite a few rabbits, a hamster, reptiles... the list goes on.  All you have to do is send a message to the sellers and hand your money over.

I just wanted to send you a (((hug))) because you are a superstar with the patience of a saint.

As I have been ill over New Yr I have only just returned to work and my couple with Toby were pleased to see me. Toby has grown and is still not house trained. What I am worried about is his behaviour. He is used to getting his own way and doing as he pleases but this morning I had to take something off him and he became quite nasty! He threw a proper temper tantrum basically.  Now I don't know if I handled it the right way  (I acted very quick ) but I grabbed the little monster by his scruff and shook him! That took the wind out of his sails and he went back to being a sweetie. Thing is I can see this getting out of hand and he will bite one of them badly in the near future. So any ideas how I can get this nipped in the bud before it gets out of control? He is a terrier so could this be breed related?

Swapsies.  Always, always offer something better (to his mind) than what he's got.  Set up situations if you can - entice him with something interesting, play with it a bit then swap it for something better.  Repeat ad nauseum.

If he's nicking stuff a lot and guarding atm I would guide them to peaceful retrievals of the stolen items - throw something super tasty nearby, near enough that he'll see/smell it and go to get it, but far enough that he has to move away from what's he stolen so they can calmly and quietly take it back.  Calmer the better - if they make a fuss he'll think that what he's stolen is more valuable and he'll try harder to keep it.  If they offer him something better a lot, he should start to bring things to them for his treat or at the least, drop it and forget about it.  NEVER chase a dog in this situation - it is oh so easy to turn it into a game and create a master thief and getaway dog because being chased is great fun :-P  I have that with clients with a wocker, at 4 months old he is already loving the chasing game and nicking everything he can get!

Also, while I understand why you did what you did today, I wouldn't do it again!  Any punishment is only going to add stress which, when he's already guarding, will most likely show itself as an intensification of that behaviour (path of least resistance kind of thing, he's already guarding so it's the quickest place for stress to go).

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Also, while I understand why you did what you did today, I wouldn't do it again!

Ha ha, yes I know what you are saying. I reacted to him instantly, there was no forethought involved. As soon as he was snapping at me I was grabbing him. I don't know what is happening with him when I am not there but I think it highly likely that he does exactly what he wants when he wants. There is so much that he can pinch and run off with in that house. He is a smart little lad and is learning that he can run rings round them. This morning I tried getting him to play with his favourite toy as a swap but he knew what he had  had a high value. He also really wanted me to play "catch me if you can" but I'm not that daft lol. I can see this escalating into a major problem.

Definitely.  Terriers can be hard work anyway for a lot of people but untrained and already creating havoc?  Eeek!

I'd be inclined to try and work out what his favourite foods are and have a stash handy for swaps.  Worked for mine, Linc was a sod of a thief when I got him but now he'll even bring me food rubbish (packets etc) he's found rather than run off with it :-P

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> Terriers can be hard work anyway for a lot of people but untrained and already creating havoc?  Eeek!<br />

Exactly! Well I have had a good talk with my lady this morning and explained what needs to happen with Toby as of right now and she agrees that she needs to work with me on his behaviour or he is going to just get worse. I have been sorting out some really good treats this afternoon so training begins tomorrow in earnest. She did tell me this morning that she has not reacted to him last night when he pinched things so perhaps she will listen and learn and with my help will nip this in the bud.

Based on a recent experience, I would strongly recommend getting this under control ASAP. I've been dog sitting for some friends whose actions throughout the day are basically controlled by the dog. If the dog decides she doesn't want you to go in a room, she will bark and nip your heels until you leave. She barks incessantly if you don't feed her when she wants to be fed, chews things up when left alone or you do something she doesn't like, etc. I told her off for eating something she shouldn't, so she flattened to the floor as if I'd beat her then decided to carry on trying to eat it while having a poo, presumably because she knew I wouldn't tell her off while she was doing her business for fear she would then do it in the house. In short, it's a nightmare and can get out of control surprisingly quickly if the dog is allowed to do what it wants instead of being given some structure and an outlet for pent-up energy.

Until now I never realised how lucky I was that my Scottie was raised with two older Goldens who have no time for her nonsense and will give her a good telling off if she gets too full of herself and starts acting like she runs the place.

If the dog decides she doesn't want you to go in a room, she will bark and nip your heels until you leave. She barks incessantly if you don't feed her when she wants to be fed, chews things up when left alone or you do something she doesn't like, etc. I told her off for eating something she shouldn't, so she flattened to the floor as if I'd beat her then decided to carry on trying to eat it while having a poo, presumably because she knew I wouldn't tell her off while she was doing her business for fear she would then do it in the house.

I think you're reading that dog wrong and/or putting human emotions onto her. Sounds like a very fearful dog (with separation anxiety) that is being told off and therefore gets even more scared.

I'm not sure how you can say that without having seen the dog or knowing anything about my ability to read dogs? If anything she tends more towards possessive and bored.

Because this is what you wrote:

I told her off for eating something she shouldn't, so she flattened to the floor as if I'd beat her then decided to carry on trying to eat it while having a poo, presumably because she knew I wouldn't tell her off while she was doing her business for fear she would then do it in the house.

Dogs do not reason like that, they are not humans. Flattening to the floor and pooing is done in fear/submission, not by some sort of elaborate plan carefully thought out.

This was a very brief explanation of one dog's actions, with the intention of showing the sort of behaviour that can come a dog being provided with minimal structure and mental stimulation. It is not enough information for a 3rd party to accurately analyse the dog's behaviour and any issues the dog may or may not have.

In dogs, structure and training = security, trust and confidence in the people it lives with.

In a dog which hasn't been trained and has no structure, this may not mean no telling off   In fact, a dog that has no training is more likely to be shouted at, told off, chased and even smacked, but has no idea why.   So in this case, the dog's reaction becomes entirely reasonable when being shouted at.

He was scared and reacted accordingly.

Most terriers are very boisterous, and seem willful and challenging.  Especially if they haven't been trained.   But they are often quite sensitive too, especially if they have been handled inconsistently.  Shouting at a terrier by a person the dog doesn't know well and have confidence in, may well lead to just such a reaction.

If I shouted at my Bedlingtons for any reason, their reaction would lead you to believe they were beaten daily with a large stick!  but you couldn't be further from the truth   Bedlingtons aren't the usual terrier though and need very sensitive handling.

Things are going from bad to worse. I got there this morning to find Toby had bitten my lady on the leg in the night when she woke to go to the loo. She said she was half asleep and as she swung her legs out of bed Toby must have been guarding something and as she got out of bed he bit her. He broke the skin and she has a nasty bruise and swelling. It bled quite a bit (not too concerned as the elderly do tend to bleed a lot even from a simple scratch) I have told her that as of now he must stay downstairs at night but I am at a loss as to how to sort this out. I have already given her a huge bag of high value treats to try getting him to give things up without war breaking out but frankly I don't think it's going to work with him as sadly they are not consistent enough. If I bought him home with me then I could get him sorted but then as soon as he went back we would be back to square one I'm not sure I want to go down that road. Sounds awful I know but my lady has to now realise that she can't cope with any puppy. If she gives him up then I will get him on the right track but not if I have to return him to them.

They simply should not have a dog.  Somehow they need to accept this.  What about a cat, at least that can get out of their way and not need walking or training.

> They simply should not have a dog

I agree with you there. I tried every argument in the book but to no avail. She was determined to have a puppy. I told her this morning that if he keeps on biting he is going to end up being put to sleep. She or her husband are going to end up in hospital because of Toby. It's not his fault, (apart from being a feisty terrier) he is a sweetie that has been allowed to do as he pleases.

How old is he?   It's possible that he was just trying to incite a game :-(

Terriers play ROUGH,  it's not that they are nasty,  but they are simply very rough players and play biting is very much a Terrier thing ;-)

With mine,  I teach them bite inhibition and as they go through their first year,  they learn to bite more and more gently,  then not at all.   .   I prefer it if they don't learn this quickly,  as they then get more time to practise it.   Leading to a very strong bite inhibition as an adult.

But,  this takes time and persistence

Something your OAPs don't seem to have.  Especially if they are not as sharp as they could be :-(

It really does sound as if they need to accept that a puppy is not for them sadly,  but how to get that accross so that it will stay with them,  I've no idea :-(

Would it not be possible for them to adopt a quiet older dog?   One that needs the love they can give,  but not be a challenge for them.

I realise that realistically,  they are barely able to cope with a stuffed toy,  but how to get them to see it?

Would you be able to take one of your dogs to visit instead of them having a dog full time

> How old is he?

He's approx. 15-16 weeks old.

> Terriers play ROUGH,  it's not that they are nasty,  but they are simply very rough players and play biting is very much a Terrier thing ;-) <br />

Yes I would agree with that except I have witnessed him first hand and he was very nasty. And this last bite drew blood and caused swelling and bruising.

> With mine,  I teach them bite inhibition and as they go through their first year,  they learn to bite more and more gently,  then not at all.   .   I prefer it if they don't learn this quickly,  as they then get more time to practise it.   Leading to a very strong bite inhibition as an adult.<br />

Again I agree with you, and he is learning to not bite me as hard as he was.

> But,  this takes time and persistence

My couple really don't have the ability to deal with him consistently. They have made no real attempt to even house train him. He pees and poos in the house as norm.

> It really does sound as if they need to accept that a puppy is not for them sadly,  but how to get that accross so that it will stay with them,  I've no idea :-(<br />

If anyone knows the answer to that please let me know

> Would it not be possible for them to adopt a quiet older dog?   One that needs the love they can give,  but not be a challenge for them.<br />

None of the good rescues will let them have a dog due to their ages and health. They would be ideal for an old dog who just needed a comfy bed for it's last few yrs.

> Would you be able to take one of your dogs to visit instead of them having a dog full time

My lot are huge and would probably terrify them by sheer size! And it would not help, my lady wanted a dog full stop and would not be satisfied with anything less. Trust me I tried everything I could think of and then some. I even refused to go in if they had a dog and all that did was make my gentleman cry and make me feel awful.

A stern word from the RSPCA, what ever their needs those of the dog are not being met.

> A stern word from the RSPCA, what ever their needs those of the dog are not being met.

I can try them but as long as he is looking fit and well, has food and water and is not locked outside I doubt they will do anything.

I doubt they will do anything.

What are the dog wardens in your area like, from what you say about the couple it may be that a stern word from anybody in official uniform may help to get the message through.
Our local D/W would probably help but I know some areas they are a waste of space.

Dog wardens I'm guessing would be your best bet. Sounds awful but on a visit if the dog bit them they might end up seizing it. Depends on how they evaluated it because he's a puppy and still a young one...
Is he ever taken out for a short walk or socialisation?

Your situation is making me want to bang my head against the wall (or perhaps your couple's heads!), I don't know how you are managing not to go insane. I have no advice, but huge amounts of respect for the effort you are putting in! x

Roscoebabe.,

It's an impossible situation :-(

I really feel for you.

Perhaps the dog warden,  if they are any good in your area,  would be able to get through to them,  as others have suggested.

Know how you feel,  currently trying to persuade an exhausted dear friend to get her daughter's adolescent cocker to training.   He's already pulled her over on a few occasions,  broken his lead and ran off on the road   broken his collar,  pulls so hard that her shoulder is really painful now.   He's starting to feel his feet now too and quite frankly she seems afraid of him.   With good reason,  he's quite the bully.   My own dogs steer clear of him as he has a go at them if they look as if they might even look at her.

She can't see that this could become a massive problem :-(

It's like banging your head against a brick wall.

LucyDogs
I agree with your post. 

roscoebabe deserves a medal the size of a dinner plate.  I don't know how she has the patience and dedication with this couple.

Just tagging on to the end.
Difficult situation indeed. I think I would be VERY wary though of involving either the RSPCA or dog warden -we all know stories of how a bite not meant as a bite has labelled a dog as "has bitten" and meant it was put down as a dog that has bitten cannot be rehomed by them.

I got REALLY angry at my own mum over Christmas. When she visited me during the summer my half grown puppy jumped up at her to say hello, being perfectly friendly.  Well my mum has thin skin and somehow a claw must have caught her hand, and she ended up with an injury serious enough to need the doctor, urgently -with several bandage changes over the next few weeks, and a permanent scar. This was a TOTAL accident, and would not have happened had the person being jumped on NOT been elderly with paper thin skin. I KNOW this as I was two feet away and saw it happen.

At Christmas, my mum asked what dog it was that she currently was stroking -dog sat calmly next to her. She can't tell them apart. I told her and she pulled her hand away and replied "Oh that's the one that bit me last time I was here." I pointed out that no, she most certainly had NOT bitten anyone, she had jumped up and done nothing wrong. (We encourage our dogs to jump up but that's another story.) My mum's reply? "Well I say she bit me when I tell people". I went mad and told her that in THIS country, if she goes around telling people one of my dogs has BITTEN her badly enough to require medical attention, it could be put down and I could face court or even prison. Her reply? "Well the other pup DID definitely bite me the other day." She was talking about my 4 month old who had gently mouthed in play without even breaking her sensitive skin...

So if you can't even trust your own family to not exaggerate, I don't think you can trust anyone. :(

Somehow this lady needs to be convinced to give the pup up to YOU to do whatever you feel is best. I just don't know how but I agree, you have the patience of a saint indeed.

> What are the dog wardens in your area like

Pretty much non existent.

> Your situation is making me want to bang my head against the wall (or perhaps your couple's heads!), I don't know how you are managing not to go insane. I have no advice, but huge amounts of respect for the effort you are putting in! x

Ha ha  thank you. Think they are trying to put me in an early grave

> Difficult situation indeed. I think I would be VERY wary though of involving either the RSPCA or dog warden -we all know stories of how a bite not meant as a bite has labelled a dog as "has bitten" and meant it was put down as a dog that has bitten cannot be rehomed by them. <br />

Yes it's very tricky, too many of these "experts" are not dog savvy and just see a dog that bites as a dog that must be PTS.

> Somehow this lady needs to be convinced to give the pup up to YOU to do whatever you feel is best. I just don't know how but I agree, you have the patience of a saint indeed.

I have made comments to Toby about coming home with me within earshot of my lady but she so far is ignoring me!

> roscoebabe deserves a medal the size of a dinner plate.  I don't know how she has the patience and dedication with this couple

Thank you, a lot of carers would  (and do) just do the basics and ignore anything else. I can't not try to do my utmost to help both my couple and Toby.

Oh dear!! The situation with Toby is getting really bad now. I got there this morning to find my lady with bites to both her arms. After he had bitten her leg in the night I had told her he had to stay downstairs at night. Well it was hit and miss, sometimes he would be downstairs other times not. This morning when I arrived he was upstairs and I learnt that he had been downstairs but she got up this morning and let him upstairs after opening the curtains. She had gone back to bed but there was clothing on the floor and while I could not get to the bottom of what happened, the end result was he bit her repeatedly on both arms creating bruising and bleeding. She still will not allow me to take him. I just don't know what else to do.

I think you need to be quite forceful and say some home truths to her. The longer he is there the worse it will get any any rehabilitation afters will prove even harder and may it be successful. Good luck x

I rang her this afternoon and told her she needs to decide what she is going to do. She is still saying she wants to keep him. Have told her she has till Monday to let me know what she wants to do. I  have told her I am not sure if I can turn him around if I do not take him soon and even then I am not sure if I can sort him out. I'm not sure if castration would help or hinder. My vet is away this weekend so I can't discuss it with him till Monday.

His issues are not sexual so will not be affected by castration.

I agree with LJS think it's time to sit them down and frankly tell them they are in over there heads and its not fair on them or the dog.
If he bites a visitor they could be done under the dda, so may be worth explaining that risk to them it may help convince them to either stick to a propped training plan or let you rehome him.

If you can convince them to let him go maby look out for someone looking for a home for an older dog that they could manage.

> His issues are not sexual so will not be affected by castration.

No , just a very dominant dog. He is already cocking his leg and I have noticed that when I tell him no in a stern voice he does that scraping with his back feet thing. Was wondering if he is having a surge of hormone. I am not working tomorrow but have told her I will phone her to make sure they are ok. I have already told her that this cannot continue, that sooner or later Toby is going to do her a lot of damage which will result in her ending up in hospital and he will be put to sleep. Even with him biting her she still says she loves him and wants to keep him. I just don't know how to make her see sense.

> I agree with LJS think it's time to sit them down and frankly tell them they are in over there heads and its not fair on them or the dog. <br />If he bites a visitor they could be done under the dda, so may be worth explaining that risk to them it may help convince them to either stick to a propped training plan or let you rehome him.<br /><br />If you can convince them to let him go maby look out for someone looking for a home for an older dog that they could manage.

They will not manage him properly. The husband does not do much with Toby and his English is not so good so getting him to listen and understand complex instruction is difficult and Mary bless her will listen and agree to what I tell her must happen with him and then not do anything once I have gone! I cannot be there 24hrs. I did think there was a chance she would let me take him this morning but then she came out with the "but I love him" line and I knew I would not walk out with him this morning. I will just have to keep trying to get her to let me take him.