Hi, hoping someone could assist and offer advice.

My partner and I have a 4year old bitch we would like to breed from, we were very nieve when we purchased her , recently we noticed an endorsement on her registration certificate, we did not pay any attention to this when we received the papers as this was new to us, and we did not understand what it meant. We now know this needs to be lifted for us to register puppies.
However I can not get hold of the breeder, a letter has been sent recorded deliver to the address we had for them , we have not had any reply, the contact telephone number we were given is no longer available along with their email.
We have tracked them down on Facebook and private messaged them, we can tell our message was read but no reply.

The endorsements were never disclosed to us by the breeder and we never signed a contract , it's only been recently that we realised that there was an endorsement and the restrictions .The endorsement was never drawn to our notice as the new owners , and there was no acknowledgement in writing of the endorsement.

We want to breed from our bitch we are in the process of getting the relevant tests, we want to be good responsible breeders, and register the puppies

It used to be the case that the endorsements would be lifted by the KC if it couldn't be proven that you were aware of them at the time of purchase (if there was no contract signed stating the terms of endorsements etc)

Hi, ok that would be great if that's the case,if I write to KC hopefully they might lift them, otherwise I have no idea what I will do

4 years old is rather older than most breeders would consider for a first litter.    Unless there is a particular reason for not breeding earlier.

Personally,  I wouldn't consider breeding later than 3 years for a maiden bitch.   Old enough to have had all the breed specific health tests done.   And old enough to have proved herself in the show ring.  

Did you not keep in touch with the breeder in the time since buying the bitch?   Unless you are an experienced breeder,  it's better to have someone who is experienced with whelping and rearing on hand to advise.   This is often the bitches breeder for first time breeders :-)

Hi thanks for you reply,

We all have to start somewhere, no the breeder never kept in touch , many reasons why we have left it to 4 due to not being ready or able to fully commit , we have sought advice and spoken to an experienced breeder, and there is no issue with breeding her first litter at 4

My question was more aimed at the endorsements

So a recent decision and only noticed at the same time. I presume no health tests done then? The breeder would have had good reason to endorse and if were me you contacting me when she was 4 for them to be lifted without staying in touch it would be a no. Takes 2 to stay in contact. Why are you wanting to breed?

You may very well be in the right of it, and be entitled to have the endorsements lifted, but I would think about it.

Breeding requires knowledge, and as you say we all have to start somewhere and at the start we rely on the knowledge of others, especially the breeder of our foundation bitch, and the owner of her sire. 

They are the ones who should know why they combined those bloodlines and what god and bad things the line has to offer to help you with the direction to take yourself.

The fact the breeder bothered to put endorsements in place was a good thing as it showed that at the time they did at least care to protect the pups and breeds best interests.

The fact that they now do not seem to want contact (did you make it clear who you are or just ask to friend them, they may like me not like to friend people unless close to them), may mean they were not that interested in continuing their interest in the breed beyond that one litter, not the best basis for you to breed on.

What steps have you taken to educate yourself about yoru bitches bloodlines?  Are you in contact with breeders of dogs in her pedigree as mentors?  Do you belong to the breed club, have attended educational events about the breed and shown and/or worked your bitch.

As others have said your leaving things somewhat late.  It is generally advised in medium to large breeds that a bitch has her first litter before 5 years of age.

Think seriously, if you have not down the serious groundwork learning about the breed and bloodlines you may be better off  doing this now, showing your bitch etc, and then look around for a breeder whose stock you admire make friends within the breed and buy in a potential foundation bitch.  This will be a better start and may lead to success sooner than trying to breed up from a very average bitch over several generations.

I started off with a bitch of excellent bloodlines, with a champion litter brother, and it took me three generations to get a top class bitch to keep, though a RCC winner from second homebred generation.  Generally the better you start with the sooner you will have success as a breeder yourself.

We all have to start somewhere,

Yes, and for the bitch's and puppies sake, the way to start is to first get a genuine knowledge of dogs and your breed and the lines of your bitch, showing, in the case of your breed also trimming (as you will want to be able to teach your puppy buyers), genetics etc etc - this all takes years. Go out and buy a bitch pup from a really good breeder that can introduce you to the breed properly; shows, breed clubs, other breeders etc, somebody who can be your mentor, and then if all works out with health tests, looks and temperament of the bitch, her breeder can then help you to find the most suitable stud dog for her. Keep the first bitch as a much loved pet, the one who got you interested in the breed. :)

Good breeders all endorse their pups and as you cannot get hold of the breeder of your bitch you will never know if she or he had reasons other than the obvious ones for endorsing (i.e. health tests to be carried out first, bitch being shown and proven to be a good example of the breed etc) -there could be potential problems in the line. I myself bred one litter where several pups ended up with both mental and physical problems and even though several of the littermates turned out just fine, I would never consider lifting their endorsements as I would not want problems to potentially be passed on.

It's very important when breeding to have first hand knowledge of as many dogs in the pedigrees of both bitch and dog as possible, not just know names and show wins, but have met them and know about health, temperaments, how long did they live? etc. That's what responsible breeding is all about.

You say you have spoken to an experienced breeder who says there is no issue with breeding her first litter at 4 - but have you carried out hip/elbow scoring?   Eye testing?   Other tests required by your breed society?    Would this "experienced breeder" advise you upon the best lines that you should be looking for when choosing a stud - or is it that she just happens to have a stud dog of the same breed?

Please read the responses here without getting angry and defensive - of course all breeders have to start somewhere - and good breeders (remember this is called Champdogs Forum) research their breed very carefully, find a mentor who can give sound advice before starting to breed.

Good luck

We all have to start somewhere

Do we really?   Is it really necessary to start with a 4yo bitch whose breeder you have, lost touch with?

Did you buy the bitch with the clear intention of breeding?   Did the breeder know this?   If they had,  they would have explained the reason for the endorsements and the conditions to be met before they'd be lifted.   If they felt the bitch was suitable for breeding.

As it stands,  you have no idea of the reason for the endorsements.   It may be there is a health problem in the line which prevents the bitch from being a breeding prospect.   If you want to be responsible breeders,  then this knowledge is paramount.

As for having to start somewhere,  if you really want to be responsible breeders, how about attending some shows,  getting to know the breed and the breeders.   Find a breeder whose dogs you admire,  and start with a young bitch  and the knowledge and help of a breeder who will support you.

4 years old is rather older than most breeders would consider for a first litter.    Unless there is a particular reason for not breeding earlier.

Personally,  I wouldn't consider breeding later than 3 years for a maiden bitch.   Old enough to have had all the breed specific health tests done.   And old enough to have proved herself in the show ring.  

I'd have to agree with this comment.   We did take litters from bitches of 4+ but NOT a first litter.   This may be a 'breed specific' thing however.

These people should have made you aware of the endorsement situation - 4 years ago I think the KC was already requiring this be done.   

I'd phone the KC and ask what your options are since the breeder isn't communicating with you.   Yes, at some point the KC would lift endorsements but that irritated me (to say the least) because as a breeder, ALL my immature stock was sold with endorsements (much as I made a HUGE mistake in not endorsing two I sold to a fellow-breeder and that all went pear-shaped which could have been avoided had endorsements been in place, including 'not for export'!!) and having them removed by the KC wasn't what I'd have expected to be done, or appreciated!!

It's unfortunate if you can't get the help from her breeder who could prove invaluable in holding your hand through the mating, pregnancy and whelping.   And to advise you re where to look for a suitable stud, for her.

On balance, I might be tempted to keep this bitch as a pet, and look for an experienced breeder for a new top quality bitch to breed from, letting them know your aims.