Has anyone had the experience of temperament problems towards the end of a dog's life, or the PTS decision being questionable?

My 11 year old collie, who has a brain tumour, has always been bossy with the rest of the dogs but lately it's just getting out of hand. I have to watch her constantly because if she walks into one of them and doesn't notice they're there she'll fly at them once they go to move, she is very aggressive around food (steroids have some influence here I'm sure), I'm now caging her for meal prep times and feeding. I can't trust her with the young bitch or ruining her temperament so they're always opposite sides of baby gates. She sometimes flies at them just for being near her, like when we get back to the van after a walk when they all come up to the back to get back in.

Fortunately the other dogs know to just get out of her way so I don't have fights breaking out (she has always been 'top bitch'). I am able to intercept her/distract her most of the time. She's growling and snapping a few times rather than really piling into them biting etc, but she did corner my boy the other day and go for him (there was food around) and he couldn't get away though he tried. It only lasted a second and I was able to get her away, my boy was fine but she was quite shook up and wobbly. After about a minute it was like nothing happened though.

I am finding it stressful because in every other way she is really quite well at the moment, and I'm worried that it will get to the point that I need to consider euthanasia purely because the management of her temperament is too difficult :( I know it's because of her tumour so it's a symptom of a disease still, but it doesn't sit well with me that I could be potentially putting down an otherwise well dog. She is so happy and playful when she's out, and is pretty relaxed at home too except for these incidents. She has none of her original symptoms of the tumour at all.

I, of course, don't want her to get to the point where she isn't happy and is snapping at them all the time. I think I just didn't expect the end to be like this :( I expected her to get some of the original symptoms, I expected fitting, bad coordination etc. I expected a weak dog.

Does anyone have an experience of 'The Decision' not being clear cut? Everyone tells me I'll know when it's time (she's my first dog), and right now I don't feel it is at all, but I wonder if I ever will whilst she's otherwise so well- and I'm worried it will either impact on my other dogs or that she is feeling worse than she shows and I'll leave it too long. I want to do right by her.

I probably should add- this isn't a constant thing, not sure if I made her out to be a vicious frothing at the mouth wild dog! But her tolerance is much lower and the outbursts are unprovoked. Some days she'll just have a growl once, others she might snap a few times through the day.

> or that she is feeling worse than she shows and I'll leave it too long. I want to do right by her

I'm sure that you will know. We had to make that decision in June when Bramble wasn't well. His kidneys had been failing for a while and gradually he had come to the point of not eating at all :( On the day the vet told us the kidneys had completely failed, Bramble was still wagging his tail, his eyes looked bright and he had walked into the vets as normal. But we knew that we couldn't let him deteriorate and suffer, so we made the decision. An easy decision when it had to be made, but so, so hard :(

You have to ask yourself is she getting pleasure from life. 

She will feel the tension you and the other dogs have and that will not make her happy either.

There are worse things than a peaceful death.

You must take into account what is best for her, yourself and the other dogs too.

> There are worse things than a peaceful death

So true :(

Ah daisy, so sorry about Bramble :( I am really dreading the time, I only hope you're right and I'll know.

Brainless, thank you. I do ask myself often if she's happy enough, and I do believe at the moment she gets enough pleasure from life. I just don't like that I'm having to weigh up the pros and cons in what feels like a cold, logical way, and I just don't have that gut feeling that I feel I should have. My other dogs are no different with her than they've ever been, as I say she's always been a grump, the occurrences are just more regular now.

I have had the 'time's up' feeling once before but she was ill and then perked up after. So I think I'm capable of feeling it but am worried I'll miss the right time because it doesn't seem as clear cut with this aggression problem as it does when she feels lousy.

Oh that's so sad and I know you dread the thought of making such a hard decision, but consider this, how would you feel if one day an isolated outburst of aggression from your collie was not ignored by another of your dogs who maybe decided, as is natures way, that your collie was no longer able or strong enough to be top dog. The fight for supremacy would be dreadful and you would be heart broken as would your collie if she lost. As another reply said, better a peaceful passing than one that is tainted by violence and possible nasty consequences   

Ah I know you are right, I would feel terrible :( it's just so, so hard when she is bouncing around with her tail in the air and ball in her mouth the rest of the time, bright as a button. How do you take that happy, bright dog into the vets that last time? So torn. It would be a little premature right now, but I fear it is approaching. They are all so precious to me I want to get it right.

>How do you take that happy, bright dog into the vets that last time?

Better than a sore hurt bleeding traumatised dog because she had picked one fight too many. :( I am not saying you should take her now at all. I have  a 14 yo dog now and I  know I will soon have to face the same decisions that you are facing now as his quality of life deteriorates and I am dreading it.

Can you alter your management of the dogs to avoid some of the triggers? can you keep her separate a bit from the others? give her more time with you rather than as part of the pack. One of mine has had a bad leg recently and has been very sensitive to being knocked as it hurts. I have been keeping her separate from the youngsters by allowing her upstairs where the youngsters dont usually get to go. She likes the peace and quiet as she knows no-one will knock into her leg. I think she also likes to be somewhere special lying on my bed. You should aim to make the time your girl has left as stress free as you can and if that means shutting the younger dogs away from her more than you would usually, then so be it. You can make it up to them once she has gone.

Also as someone recently told me make sure you have  time with just her. Although the worst is coming at least you know so you can make some special memories and enjoy the time you have left. An unexpected loss hurts because you have no time to get used to the idea and you are left thinking of the things you would like to have done if you had known how short the time was.

I don't think there can be any one of us who, faced with this terrible decision, isn't left afterwards with just a wee bit of 'did I get it right'!!!    You may be saying your dog is 'otherwise healthy' but fact is if she has a brain tumour this is only going to get worse and for me, I'd have to talk to my vet who will, if there's anything at all left to offer your bitch, do just that, to hopefully give her that little bit of extra time.   However, if she's fighting and causing tension, she will know this.   And as has been pointed out, if a fight happens when you are not there (although I guess you could separate her from the others?), you could come home to a disaster.

As has always been the case with mine, it's when the down days outnumber the up days, that I KNOW I have to help   I've not had to deal with a brain tumour in mine, but we have had cancers of varying sorts (too many, but always in old age).   I just know if I started getting aggression caused by a brain tumour, I'd not keep one of mine going for very long if there's nothing to be done for the condition.

We have never done 'lingering' apart from one, my so-precious Canadian-bred UK Champion (who was precious without her success I hasten to add).   I know I kept her going for longer than I should have and wouldn't ever do that again!!   So darned hard with cancer when so often there isn't always a 'cure'.   I've had vets weeping over not being able to do anything other than give a dignified end to suffering.

How do you take that happy, bright dog into the vets that last time? So torn.

I won't go into the entire story now (have mentioned it in the past -I had one litter of pups that simply were not NORMAL as far as temperament went) -but a puppy buyer of mine had to do just this last week. For 6 years she coped with having a dog that would sometimes try to bite (and on a couple of occasions, succeeded) her husband. Then this year the dog bit another relative. She had done EVERYTHING to rehabilitate this dog, you name it, she'd done it. She loved him so much and she tried so hard to simply manage him, as with her, he was happy and loving and was getting great at obedience (although of course, she could not compete as he could not be around strangers). Then one day he went for and injured a stranger. The decision was then taken out of her hands as she now had the choice of having the dog put to sleep, or having him seized as a dangerous dog, with a court case she could not possibly win. She chose to have the vet come to her house and put the dog to sleep. An incredibly sad day, but it had to be done.

I am not saying that your dog would ever attack a human, but with a brain tumour the temperament will most likely get more and more unpredictable. So what I am saying is, there are occasions when you have to take a happy dog to the vet for the last time. You know there is a problem and you know what it is, and I would guess that chances are that the behaviour will get unmanageable before the general health will. An awful situation for you to be in and I really feel for you, but I think you need to prepare yourself for the fact that you may well have to take a happy dog for the last journey, sadly. Maybe not this week or this month, but you have to watch carefully and remember that a dog lashing out is not a happy dog. You have to think of not just this dog, but the others as well.

It is really hard to get across our arrangement, routine, the dogs' personalities and relationships etc, so I know you are all only getting a very fuzzy picture of it all, but I do appreciate the comments. I do think this is going to be the reason for her being put to sleep rather than any of her other 'easier' symptoms I've dealt with over the last year.

I think I definitely could manage the situation better than I am. She isn't left alone with them ever, she's crated separately in the van, she will happily chill with them at home for the sleepy moments and is fine all night. But during the busier points of the day I'm going to have to think of ways to keep them safe. She doesn't actively seek them out or go at them from across a room, so I'm sure if I was clever with it I could arrange something to give the youngsters and her some space. I will have a think. I wouldn't be in two minds if she wasn't looking so happy and vibrant otherwise. I don't know if this aggression will get worse or not, perhaps if she has more space from the others and more time with me it would work better. It could, after all, be because she has a terrible headache and doesn't want to be touched, or anything like that. Of course if she ends up having to be isolated that is no life at all and I would not put her in that position. But right now maybe my management can ease things a little.

I just feel cheated because I don't feel like I put so much into her to lose her this way.

Mamabas, it's reassuring to hear that sometimes people question their decision. I've got in touch with my holistic vet again to see if we can tweak her meds again, traditional medicine can't do any more for her, she has beat the prognosis by almost a year, unfortunate term, but this girl has a lot of fight in her! 11 is no age for a border collie and I don't think it would be such a tough decision if she had been a little older and looked uncomfortable- but I do appreciate that she won't beat this cancer so she never will get that look about her.

Thank you guys, guess I'd better just accept that it won't be the end I had in mind.

Thank you, Marianne, that's a really helpful post. So sad for your puppy buyer, but very brave of them, and I really appreciate you sharing.
Your post is really quite true and gives me a lot to think about. Thank you.

Just to add, when we decided to move across country (E.Anglia to Devon) to be closer to relatives following my husband's stroke, for back-up, I had an ageing hound who I really didn't think would be able to cope with the move and new surroundings very well.  I agonised over what to do but in the event (and this wasn't a cancer situation), she had what we/and vet felt was a heart attack, just weeks before the scheduled move.   In that case, as my vet said, she made the decision for us!

I'm just telling you this because at the end of the day, you could well find your stricken girl makes this decision for you too.   To say I hope so isn't quite right, but I hope you understand what I mean!!

I'm sorry your Collie is unwell. That 'time' is difficult to judge when, for the most part, they are eating and playing.
I had a dog diagnosed with cancer. I'd bred her and she came back to me and she hated my other dogs! We were due to go away and I had her pts the day before as it wouldn't have been fair on the dog sitter or the other dogs. I guess she could've gone on for a bit longer but not much. I agonised about 'when' and it made me feel quite sick but for her it was the right decision.
I'm sure your girl would feel happier separated and getting more one on one time with you in the remaining time she has left. I'm doing exactly that with my GSD who's on borrowed time. It's a massive juggling act when you've got other dogs/mothers/OHs with varying needs and ailments.

a number of years ago I had a dog with a brain tumour, vets had done all they could. She too would have times of being happy and bouncy but when I looked into her eyes the sparkle had gone - I think she kept bouncing for us so that she didn't let us down. A couple of times she snapped at the other dog, which was totally out of character, and because she was a giant breed we felt that we couldn't risk her going for a child or a smaller dog. We set a date a week away, arranged for the vet to come to the house, and she was pts. When the vet arrived my dog greeted her then lay down and put per paw on the vet's lap ready for the injection, then she licked my hand and was gone very very quickly - she was ready to go and although my heart broke I know it was the right thing to do. You will know from the look in your dogs eyes when she has fought long enough, good luck with your decision.

Thank you guys for your posts. It's given me some comfort to know others have been in similar situations and been able to do the right thing.
She has made the decision for me-for now, for some reason she has been miss happy and chilled the past few days. I have made a few changes but I think it's more the yoyo nature of the tumour and I'm sure it'll come back. This disease is so unpredictable and frustrating. After reading these posts I'm a bit more positive about the decision I'll have to make. She gave my boy a big lick on the nose last night. I think I know what they were saying to each other.

I have to agree with Goldmali. I often think that I may have let my dog go on too long. ( hindsight is a wonderful thing) the vet never suggested That I should consider euthanasia but it was an awful illness to witness (tracheal collapse was one of the symptoms). My brother dropped half his clients as we couldn't be sure if she was left alone that she would still be there when we got in. We were resuscitating her daily almost. I think she was terrified of being left alone so we made sure she wasn't. It was chronic for quite a few months before she passed and I am not sure we did the right thing by her. However when you are in the midst of it it's such a tough call. I hope this gives you the other perspective.

I truly feel for you.

Oh Tish that sounds so difficult :( so sorry you and your girl had to go through that. Thank you for sharing though, it does help to hear your experiences.

I know others on here have gone through a lot worse and on more than one occasion but at  the time it was fine I didn't want to let go. however what Goldmali said resonated. There are worse things and maybe you only realise that afterwards. I think what I have learnt here is that sometimes you have to really ask yourself who you are doing it for. Had I really done the comparison of how much she had declined I should have taken her but I was too locked in to saving her.

Saying that it's easy to be objective after. Just don't beat yourself up. Whatever you do you are doing through love x

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2Fnews%2Fuknews%2Flaw-and-order%2F11270101%2FBarrister-cleared-after-her-dog-attacked-a-police-horse.html&ei=LBCGVP3ENYGvU6CXgNgP&usg=AFQjCNE3TDXzXFUWYpf2ZUmS62At3o2i6w&bvm=bv.80642063,d.d24&cad=rja
Any comments on this court case? Personally I would be devastated if my dog injured a horse - surely she could have put the dog back on the lead before it took off?

It would be ghastly for you to feel you had to bring the decision forward because of her erratic temperament.  It does sound as if you need to do what ever you can to help her to manage her spaces a bit better.

Can you borrow baby gates, give her safe places, time alone with you, separate toileting areas or time outside without the others barging around?  As you say, it isn't all the time BUT it would be nice if you could relax again and not worry about her with the other dogs.  Separation, segregation, and door and food management techniques may well be the key to a happier home life.  If she were an only dog you wouldn't know about this aspect of her condition so it would be nice if you could give her that sense of safety for as long as she has left.

Such a hard time for you all, you have my sympathies.

There is an article in your dog Jan edition about this Tectona. Almost identical to your situation it may give you some comfort.

>Any comments on this court case?

This should really be on it's own thread Ida, but a staffy that had previously been trained to fight, rescued and rehomed then off lead in the park, lets hope it's not something more vulnerable than a horse next time.

Point taken - how do I move this to a new thread now?

Just post a new thread with it in Ida :)

Is that magazine out now, Tish? I'll have to have a look- thank you.

Thanks dogs a babe. I think we have cracked it for now- she has had some of her 'normal' grumps but I haven't had any irrational aggression for maybe about a week. She's had more one on one attention, I'm still crating her whilst I make their food and she eats in the crate, the other dogs are doing a stay whilst I put her in the van first, little things like that. I will never trust her around the bitch pup as she isn't mine and it's just not worth the risk of ruining her temperament- but that's been the case for some time and is very easy to manage.

So I think for now management is helping. Her lovely holistic vet is sending some chill pills out for her with her usual medication so that might help her too. We'll see :) you've all really helped to reassure me so I appreciate all the comments.

This is the smiley face you're all helping me with: http://oi57.tinypic.com/x2m9zm.jpg

Thanks all :)

I had to make the same decision last September, my 14 year old Springer Spaniel had a inoperable tumour in her mouth, as well as a few other age related conditions. She had good days and some not so good, she also became increasingly grumpy. She had previously always had a lovely temperament and had never even growled at another dog or human.
As things progressed it was really difficult to decide when was the right time, she had a really bad night one night and I took her to the vets fully expecting not to be leaving with her, but the vet upped her medications and she had a couple of more months.
My view is that her grumping and growling were more of a warning to the other dogs, as she was probably quite tender in some places and didn't want them to knock her.
We both have the same large breed and mine were very tolerant of her grumps, looked at her as if to say '' What's up with you '' and just walked away and ignored her.
From my experience over a lot of years, and having to say goodbye to a number of old friends, it is never easy. I agree with the other posters, in that you have to weigh up all aspects of the situation.
When I did finally make the decision to let her go, it was heart-breaking but afterwards I did feel like a big weight had been lifted. Cried buckets, but I know she had had a very good life, and went with dignity. Leaving behind many happy memories.

She is stunning ! Beautiful, vibrant and so happy!

It's in the jan edition, not a huge article but I hope it helps you.

Ah so sorry to hear of your tough time dorcas. It's so tough when there is nothing more that can be done. Do appreciate you sharing, thank you.

I picked up the magazine today Tish, but haven't had a chance to read it yet- thanks for pointing it out.

Chili is quite pretty, yes, but the poster girl for badly bred, unregistered dogs as far as poor temperament and health go. If I knew 12 years ago what I know now.... Still, I love her to bits, and the difficult ones teach you an awful lot- don't they?

Oh I love the photo.  Such a pretty face.  Sending you strength for when you need it.

Really apt name !

I've been following the is thread closely. My thoughts are with you and your girl - her smile is infectious :)

How are you both?

I let her go today :( the unreasonable aggression was gone but she couldn't settle the past few days, day and night. She looked in pain and her sparkle was gone.

We enjoyed a walk on the moor with her adoptive brothers and sister, and a rainbow appeared, I had to take a snap, I'll try to post it later. I let her have some awful things she would never in a million years be allowed like chocolate spread, and took her to the vets armed with garlic sausage and liver sausage- her favourites.

I'm totally heartbroken, and miss her so much already. But in the end she did tell me when it was time and my mind was made up.

Thank you all so much for your support. Chili 01.03.03-19.12.14. Too soon. A brave fight well fought my princess.

Jess

So sorry, but I'm glad you were able to decide when the time was right rather then having to take drastic action.

It's never easy to let them go is it, but now she is out of pain and you won't have to worry about her now.

Run free Chili

So sorry :(

Oh Tectona I am so sad for you. Big hugs. How poignant to see a Rainbow. I am at a loss of what to say to you. I have been thinking of you

Xx

So sorry Jess, it sounds like her quality of life was gone & so you made the only decision for her XXXX

http://s30.postimg.org/x1jyqrk41/image.jpg

Hope that link works. It's from our lovely walk this morning. I couldn't believe it.

Thank you all. No more restless nights for my sweet Chilichops, though it hurts me an awful lot. It is so strange at home as most of my life has been arranged around her needs for the past year. I'm sure it'll get easier with time though I wish so badly she was still here.

I'm so sorry. :-( You gave her every opportunity to fight his but some battles cannot be won; then it's time to retire the field with dignity intact - and that's exacly what you helped her to do. Sleep well Chili. And what a beautiful photo to cherish.

Tectona that is beautiful what a lovely memory to have - bless her.

so sorry to hear your sad news, but you are to be congratulated for being able to do the right thing. I know how hard it is to part with them, but time really is the greatest healer.

Oh, bless her dear heart - and yours too.

So sorry for your sadness, but you have done the right thing by your lovely girl and I hope in time you will find comfort in knowing that you made the right decision at exactly the right time for her.

They just don't live long enough, do they ...

I wish you strength at this difficult time - and again, well done for doing the right thing.

Blay  XX

So sorry x

I share your pain - it's heartbreaking, but you have set her free - and how wonderful that you saw the rainbow today.    The ache will always be there - but the happy memories will, eventually, overcome the sadness xx

So sorry. What a lovely photo, hopefully it will remind you of the good times.

So sorry to read this, beautiful photo to cherish.

I'm really sorry. You did everything right. What an amazing photo, to get the rainbow in the background like that -and what a beautiful girl.

I've been thinking of you.  When I first saw her photo I was amazed how much like my boy she was.  Except he's a darker red, but has those typical amber eyes of the working lines.

I am so very sorry because I know your pain, and each one of us that has to make this decision knows the heartache.  I do feel that seeing the rainbow was a beautiful sign in some way.

RIP Chili and run free at the bridge with no more pain and worry.  xx

Jean

Thank you for all of your messages. I have never known sadness like it, though I have of course experienced loss before. I miss her so much. I am still getting used to the little things, an empty bed in the morning (she was the only one who slept on the bed), forgetting and taking out three food bowls etc. At the moment I can't help but think of everything I could have done differently. But I'm sure in time that will change. I am getting Christmas cards with her name in, I have sent Christmas cards I wrote before Friday with her name in. Just very sad all the time.

My goldie doesn't seem to notice, but my boy misses her now and then, he started wagging his tail and bouncing around when I opened her cage in the van to take a bed out for him to lay on, then got confused that she hadn't jumped out, and examined the bed wagging his tail softly.

Chili was so badly bred. I wanted a red and white BC, and saw an advert. Not knowing what I do now I visited them in a barn at 2 weeks old, then every fortnight til I chose her and brought her home. No pedigree, no health tests, just thought seeing the mother and father was good and hey, collies are farm dogs, why not raise them in a barn. Her shocking temperament didn't take long to emerge, though she was fine at home I couldn't trust her with any other dogs, and our obedience career was cut very short as she couldn't cope with the environment without completely freaking. She used to run out of the room if the Simpsons theme tune came on, the alarm sound in QI, the 'kerching' sound of a cash register, go ballistic whenever someone shouted DOWN on a sendaway at a show, used to run back to the van if there was any shooting on the moor. She developed joint issues at around 2 years old and subsequently was diagnosed with her meningioma brain tumour at 10. Because of her temperament I decided against radiation therapy, and they 'couldn't find a surgeon brave enough' to operate. So on paper, though brain tumours are a bit of a mystery in humans let alone dogs, all of the research pointed to a prognosis of 2-3 months. Our only conventional treatment option was prednisone to suppress the swelling. I decided to take her to see the amazing holistic vet Nick Thompson, who put her on CV247, reishi and apocaps and we had an extra 14 happy and special months, including a Christmas and another birthday I didn't think we would see.

I have since met probably 20-30 dogs from the same 'breeder', and issues have ranged from aggression towards dogs/people/their owner, other behavioural issues, neurological issues (and I don't just mean Chili), hip dysplasia, non existent hips, osteoarthritis from a young age (again, more than one dog), I really could go on and on, it is criminal. There is not one sound dog amongst them. When the breeder knew about the hip problems she said she would buy new stock and hip score them. I cannot face the woman, but I do have an address to write to when I feel up to it.

Of course, I absolutely adore Chili, but it has been a harsh lesson in learning how not to buy a dog. At least I know what is behind my current dogs. Nature sometimes throws us surprises but I am able to make a more informed decision. And if I ever want another badly bred dog, there are a lot of them rotting away in rescues, there is just no need to line the pockets of thoughtless breeders.

Anyway, sorry that was a bit of an essay, just wanted to get it off my chest. You have all been a great support.

And Tish- I didn't read the article until yesterday, but it helped x

Jess