So my girl has finished her first season and started a phantom. We were at the vets on Monday (for a skin issue) he said he recommended a spay sooner rather than later. We are thinking when she is 1. Goldmali is that too young for a small breed?

You may recall I changed vets due to pressure to spay her early. Don't want to breed or show from her. Just make sure she has full benefit of the hormones. I have been looking into ovary sparing spay but don't think it is for her. If i should get her done earlier than I anticipated I don't see the benefit.

She wil still bleed and be attractive to males have phantom pregs. (Please dispute if I am wrong but is my interpretation).  So was opting for full spay after 12 months. Vet is great very open to all your reasons why we shouldn't (I think he is enjoying the debate which is refreshing)

Would appreciate your input

Tish

She won't be able to bleed if her ovaries are spared, because her uterus has been removed - which is where the blood comes from.

She will still be attractive to males and may still allow mating.

There is research which says that females live longer if their ovaries remain inside them until 6-7 years, so I would definitely want to keep a female intact until that age - unless the phantoms got really bad. 

ANd when I did spay, I'd want to do a lap spay, which is keyhole surgery and much less invasive than a traditional spay.

Personally I have no problem with spaying a small bitch aged around one -you need it done 3 months after a season. I would always wait until 2 for a larger breed but there is such a big difference between little and large in how fast they mature etc.

Bitches who have false, or phantom pregnancies usually continue to have them after each season, until spayed and this may well pull her down.   As far as I'm aware, it's usually the bigger breeds who shouldn't be spayed early, giving their bones time to develop (growth plate closure) first.   So if your bitch is a small breed and is suffering with a false pregnancy after her first season, I'd plan to get her spayed in another couple of months.    And I'd go for a complete spay.

I took my Whippet in to be spayed when just over 6 months but not having had this breed before, I was not expecting him not to want to do it.   I had no intention to breed from her and had an elderly (ill) entire male Basset at the time who didn't want to be anywhere near a bitch in season which he'd know about, even if she wasn't anywhere near where he was!!   He suggested the potential for bone growth problems, and spay incontinence although I'm now not too sure he was right, having since moved away from the practice, for various reasons.   I waited, making arrangements for her to go to a local kennel if she did come into season.   By 10 - 11 months she'd still not come in so I took her back and asked him to go ahead, which he did and at 6 now, she's fine - perhaps a bit taller than she should be, but that could be genetic!!

I don't do castration unless medically necessary, but I will always spay, depending on my intentions for the bitch in question.   If only not to have to confine them twice a year!!   And Basset bitches do tend to run into false pregnancies.

ps   You can still show a spayed bitch, with KC 'approval'.


There is research which says that females live longer if their ovaries remain inside them until 6-7 years, so I would definitely want to keep a female intact until that age - unless the phantoms got really bad. 

There is also 'research' to suggest the more seasons a bitch is allowed to have, the greater the risk of her developing mammary, ovarian or uterine cancers later on.   Our bitches were usually spayed on retirement, at around 6 years and we did have one who developed mammary cancer - not something I'd wish on my worst enemy.   She was just one of a significant number of bitches we had in our small show/breeding kennel however.   But the risk is there.

Thank you all

She is a small breed

I clearly didn't think about the technicalities I must have misunderstood what a div!  What I Liked about this vet was his willingness to have a debate about the pros and cons.

I would definitely go for the less invasive procedure. I need to take notes on Monday as I know he said there was another reason to have the ovaries removed but I cannot recall what it was.

She is not a happy little dog at the moment it is clearly her hormones she just wants to cuddle up and isn't really interested in playing or going for walks.

The change is horrible

If your bitch is at the soft undercarriage/milk stage of a phantom, it shouldnt be done until she has been cleared of milk. As others have said it should be 3 months from season but longer if there is 'udder'.

She is 9 months on the 20/12/14 - the vet is checking her again in Monday and we were thinking after she is a year in March. So this ties in well with the 3 month & age recommended on here. He will also be able to do her eyes then if they still need it.  They have improved slightly.

I would say its a bit soon for a phantom if she has only just finished her season.

In our experience, phantoms have only started to occur at around 4+ weeks after the season has finished which would be the 5.5/6+ weeks, if the bitch had been mated. Some are nearer the imaginary due date (approx 7.5 weeks after season stopped).

Thank you, she is definitely slightly developed around her teats. It feels like she has about inch or so diameter of swelling around the teat which wasn't there during her season. 

Mamabas, the research which says a bitch is more likely to get mammary cancer (no other cancers) if left intact is only relevant if they have a single season.  After one season, the risk is almost as high as if they had had many seasons and been left intact for years.  After two seasons, it IS as high as it always will be - it doesn't increase after that, it is what it will be.  So if you wanted to prevent mammary cancer, you would spay before any seasons at all. 

After that point, you may as well leave intact - because the bitch will benefit from ovary exposure over their lifetime.

It never ceases to amaze me that there are still people who think spaying and neutering for your average dog is a good idea - for bitches below age 6/7.  (And I exclude phantoms, since they may indeed be a reason to spay - and other problems too.)  The research is extremely clearcut and the facts are out there.  Problem is, people rarely read it all - they read garbled 2nd hand accounts of it, and don't read the papers themselves....

Are there any studies done on Bitches who have had puppies and their mammary cancer risk?  As opposed to entire bitches who haven't had pups/fed their pups?

I ask because Cancer Research UK have this ontheir web page

"Breastfeeding

Statistics show that if you breastfeed you are less at risk of developing breast cancer, particularly if you have your children when you are younger. We don't know exactly why this is. It may be because your ovaries don't produce eggs so often when you are breastfeeding. Or it may be because breastfeeding changes the cells in the breast and may make them more resistant to the changes that lead to cancer."

And it's reasonable to question whether it's possible that a similar effect happens in bitches.

The study which Brainless posted the link for didn't actually say if the bitches had, had a litter. Just the pros and cons of spaying and neutering. Posted on 19/07/14

Well if my own bitches are anything to go by 9 bitches that are over 2 years of age and of those 8 have had litters.

My very first one had a small mammary tumour, and none of the others as yet, including the other deceased ones.

Currently alive and tumour free are Jozi at 15, Lexi 11, Myka 8, Inka 6, Safi nearly 4 and Peni 2 1/2.

It may be line/breed specific as anecdotally few bitches in my breed develop mammary tumours.

I had a friend in a Spaniel breed who expected al her bitches to develop tumours and they nearly all had mammary strips, all lived long lives.

Did I tell you when I told my current vet about the study He freely admitted quote" we are in our infancy with veterinary medicine" even though he is in his 50's /60's ! I was impressed by his interest.  Would it be good to have a vet on champdogs if I could convince him?

As long as he doesn't think pedigree dog breeders and showers are the spawn of the devil he'll be very welcome I'm sure! :-D

Tee hee quite the opposite. He is refreshingly open minded. He actually asked me if I was breeding her and only when I said no did he suggest spaying her when she reaches a year.

The other practise made me feel I was signing her death certificate if I didn't have her done at 6 months.

She was back at the vets last night he has refunded 35.00 for the steroid cream which I didn't have to use as the cocoanut oil did the job. We have looked at her teats again still swelling so preliminary spay for April but if we can extend it longer we will, he can't do the lap but says the wound will be very small if and when she goes ahead

Love this vet - walked out without paying !

Didn't realise until this morning and when I rang they were very cool about it - that was when I found out about the refund!

hey ! where did you find him ? can you send him over please lol. As much as I love my vets they are rather mainstream and  very new to to business other than the partner who is much respected in her specialism  been in practice 30 years or more but again very mainstream. As I am not mainstream conversation can sometimes be tricky as things like homeopathy are a complete un known to them  although they do not push me over neutering vaccinations etc
Rabid good points raised