Sorry if I have posted this in the wrong place, but my question has to do ultimately with breeding rights so hoping I've come to the right place!

I am committed to keeping a bitch puppy back from our litter to establish our line and can't keep a dog as well as I already have 3 boys--but there is a little star in the litter that I don't want to let go of. Would you mind sharing your experiences of co-ownership, thinking about costs (his co-owner will keep and show him), future stud rights assuming his health and other prospects bear out (I can't use him on any of my bitches, but would want to retain control over where he is used) and what constitutes the basis of a fair agreement? What are/were your non-negotiables, and what are/were your issues that you were prepared to vary? I am assuming that he will go free of charge.

Also, am I right in thinking that he will need to be registered in my name/affix only and then transferred to co-ownership--he has not been registered yet.

Many thanks for any advice!

I co-own a dog that does not live with me. I paid for half his purchase price/import costs, and I paid a one off sum towards this and that (such as hip scoring etc), but otherwise the person he lives with pays food, vet bills, show entries etc. She also gets to keep any stud fees generated, I get to use him on any of my bitches for free of course, and when somebody asks to use him, we discuss it together and make a decision together. We have both accepted and rejected bitches doing it this way. Thankfully this is my best friend and we've had no issues and always agree.

I then co-own a bitch with somebody else and have co-owned others, and I am not sure I'd do it again as it limits you so much. Again I pay all upkeep as she lives here, show entries etc, but litters are shared, stud dogs decided on in turn, first pick of litter taken in turn, and I will never have full say of what I do with my own bitch and her pups. Again not been a problem  but I have decided I don't like not having full control of what happens to my pups etc so will avoid this situation in future.

I have co owned a dog and would NEVER do it again. It cost me a fortune and almost a friendship. It was coerced on me and I paid ALL THE COSTS. Purchase, travel costs, health tests, upkeep and when my co owner realised he was not what we thought, he pulled out.

that's terrible Lynneb! That isn't the case here. I wouldn't let him go if I had  a choice, but I know I can't stretch to another dog at the moment on top of the bitch I am keeping and do justice to both. I am thinking of offering the dog free of charge, I will either pay for entirely or share all health tests costs, the co-owner will be responsible for upkeep, and I would like to be able to borrow him for up to 4 weeks a year (show/stud duties if he bears out our hopes for him in terms of health, temperament and achievement in the ring). Stud fees for the co-owner will be nominal, all external matings to be approved by both of us and we will share any future fees, split to be determined on co-owner input. And I will take him bnack if and when the co-owner is no longer able or willing to have him. Is this more reasonable?

I have only ever co-owned one, a male I had to home after intending to keep him.   By almost 2 he started challenging his uncle for top dog and having tried to get him to settle down, he didn't so for the sake of peace in my small pack, he had to go.   As I didn't know the girl who had him, I decided not to sell him outright, but to co-own him with her, at least until I saw what was what.    The dog was already registered in my name, so the transfer was done in the usual way, putting both our names as the new owners.  For sure all the things to do with his care went in writing - from what happened with any stud fees he might receive, to who paid the vet bills, showing entry fees and so on.  In effect anything I felt could be a problem later on went down in writing!!!    As it happened, his home was an excellent one and eventually, after about a year, I signed the paperwork for him to be transferred into his by then owner's sole name.

As a general rule however, I don't do co-ownership.    I did have a stud agreement (one free stud) on a puppy I sold because I felt of the two males I had in the litter, he was probably going to be better for one of my bitches later on, than the male I'd kept myself.   Pointless as it happened because I'd sold him to a fellow breeder (stupidly without ANY endorsements because I trusted the woman) who eventually sold him overseas, before I was ready to use him.  So I used his brother on my bitch (and only had one singleton bitch puppy .... who didn't come up to scratch either).

These 'agreements' don't always work out, so for me, I make the decision about what puppies I wanted to keep, if any, from my litters and let the others go to hopefully good permanent pet homes.   And I didn't ever again sell to a fellow breeder!!!    If any of the puppies was good enough, later on, to show, I'd encourage the new owners to get into showing and ditto with if I wanted to use a dog I'd sold at stud - not that that ever happened either!!!

You are right - your pup would be registered in your name, using your affix.   And he'd then need to be transferred into joint names.  Unless the other party co-owns your affix.

I co owned a dog I bred and I would never do it again. There was a contract in place and all was well for a few years. As the dog became more and more succesful the "other" owner decided she wanted to ditch me. It led to many, many formal complaints to the KC, solictors letters on her part and an eventual solution when the "other" owner consented to buy the dog from me.
NEVER AGAIN as what I thought was going to be a postive and enjoybale experince with a friend turned out to be just the opposire.
Diane

I co-owned a dog with someone abroad that I trusted at the time, and would NEVER do it again.    To cut a long story short - it ended up with a court case in a different country that I lost on a legal technicality as the agreement wasn't witnessed in the different country.

Minefield

Jo

>I am thinking of offering the dog free of charge

Two of mine are in co-ownership, I wouldn't have expected either for free though.

One was born in the UK, I got a £200 discount (25% off), the co-owner/breeder has a say on who he would be used on but other than that he's entirely mine, so all bills are mine.

The other was an import, I paid half the normal purchase price (450e) and half his passport fee, co owner was really just helping me out, she doesn't want a say in anything but I will consult her on all important matters, he's my dog in everything else.

I did make clear at the start though that I couldn't part with any of my dogs even for a day, so if one of the boys breeders wants to use him they have to come here and they are not able to show either boy. In fact both boys are so strongly bonded to me neither would show for their breeder now :-)

That's good to know, chaumsong--obviously I don't want to place any demands on the co-owner that are onerous, but just thinking of the dog's show potential it would be good if we could get him to shows further south (the co-owner is about 250 miles north of me and I am in the north west).

So it seems experience ranges from out and out disaster to a laid back "silent partner" type agreement...lots of food for thought here! Thank you all for your input,most appreciated. It makes me determined to be a good co-owner!

>thinking of the dog's show potential it would be good if we could get him to shows further south

I suppose it depends on the temperament of the dog, and/or how the co-owner brings him up. I don't know what I do to my dogs, although they are well socialised and happy to go anywhere it has to be with me, the hounds all (and every hound I've ever owned) refuse to go with anyone else and get very upset if taken away from me. I work so they are happy being left, but they won't leave the house with anyone else or go away from me at a show or on a walk with anyone else.

The collies I've owned have been the opposite, love Mummy but happy to go with anyone who will throw a ball for them, depends how your breed are whether it would be possible to show him once he lives elsewhere.

Maybe the perfect solution would be to find a co-owner who wants to show :-)

Jay15, are you putting endorsements on this pup? If you are going into co-ownership you'd need to have this covered i.e the cut off point where you would/wouldn't lift if things didn't go to plan health wise and how much say the co-owner would have.

This co-owner does show, but she is a long way from almost all of the champ show venues. My thinking was that between us we could cover a lot more of the UK shows if he comes to me for a short holiday "down south" each year, especially if/while we campaign him.

All these puppies will be endorsed, including the one I keep :-)