Im asking this question for my friend who is getting very worried because she recently had her dog mated,the stud in question belongs to a friend and an agreement was made the stud fee( which was unusually high) could be paid once pups were sold,the agreement was by email so she still has evidence of this.Her girl missed though and a scan this week proved there were no puppies but her friend is still requesting that she still pays her the stud fee.She has offered to pay the petrol cos because they took the stud to her but surely she doesnt have to still pay the fee when there are no pups? The fee is double what others are but because she doesnt drive and this boy is very nice and they offered to come to her plus they are friends she went with this stud.What are her legal rights regarding this matter?

I don't know much about the stud fee system but I know that others will post shortly with all you need to know. However, I believe she has to pay.

I thought it was standard practice that a stud fee is set at around the price of a puppy - which would depend on the pedigree of the stud and as far as I know all stud fee arrangements would have to be set out at the beginning. Do you know what was actually agreed at the time of the mating? Some breeders mention what happens if the bitch misses with some offering a second attempt at the next heat for no further cost. Has she thought about negotiating with them and discussing a second attempt?

But apart from that I think she has to pay whatever the fee was she agreed to whether the bitch missed or not - otherwise a stud could be used many times to a bitch that would not conceive and the stud owner wouldn't be getting paid even though there was no fault at their end - so I think she has to pay the stud fee no matter what - but it is still important she remembers what was agreed and that she doesn't pay more than was initially agreed.  I know they said they would wait for the stud fee to come after the selling of the puppies but that seems to me to be just a way of being nice and giving her time to pay - not a way of saying that she doesn't have to pay it if there wasn't a litter.

I've never used a stud that didn't offer a free return if the bitch misses, however I'm assuming the stud is proven? Normally if a studs not proven the fee would be considerably lower/only payable on producing a litter.

If the agreement was that the stud fee would be payable on the sale of the puppies and there are no puppies to be sold then they may find it difficult to enforce payment, however morally if she agreed to pay then she should pay. Very difficult situation, I've only ever paid up front with a free return agreement or as pick of litter (with a no litter no fee agreement)

It all depends on what the email actually said?

It said to be paid after the sale of the pups.They are friends and she knew my friend was struggling  and the fee was high.In the past when ive had a fail i have been given a free go next time.

It said to be paid after the sale of the pups.They are friends and she knew my friend was struggling  and the fee was high.In the past when ive had a fail i have been given a free go next time.

It would depend on what was agreed in the email. If it was just a straightforward fee for the stud then yes she will have to pay. It may be they will allow a free return at her next season ? It is just as important to set out terms with friends as with those  you do not know. The pitfalls of breeding are many and diverse. There are no "Laws" to cover this and no right or wrong. The terms are what the 2 parties agreed. If they said she could pay once the pups were sold I suppose it could be argued that as there are no pups then no fee is due, but it would be expensive and longwinded to chase it through the courts. This will obviously see an end to the friendship. A warning for anyone thinking of doing the same. GET A CONTRACT setting out exact terms and make sure all parties sign it.
I have just had a litter and the dogs owners expressed a wish for a pup. The stud contract was to be paid at the safe arrival of pups and that was done, they have now paid me the exact same amount for the pup ! We all knew what the deal was well in advance. No problems and a great friendship protected.

Yes it was definately from the sale of the pups and there are no pups.My friend has offered to take her girl to her next season and also cover the petrol cost too,she wants to do the right thing and is geting so upset over the matter

If the stud dogs owner is insisting they pay there is not much they can do. They could refuse and call the bluff. It will ruin any friendship though. If they agree to pay and have a free return then they need to get it in writing. Its a hard way to learn.
Aileen

Yes it was definately from the sale of the pups and there are no pups.

Just an observation -this have so many loopholes. What if there had been just one pup, which they decided to keep? What if there were two and they decided to keep both? What if a large litter had been born and all pups died?  In all these cases there would have been pups but no sales.

Everything like this really needs to be worked out properly in advance.

I know she defintely had no plans to keep one cos we were discussing that a few weeks ago.I have no doubt if only one had survived she wouldve had to pay the stud owner and i have absolutely no doubt she wouldve,she is a lovely lady which is probably why she is stressing so much cos she the plan was to pay when the  pups sold.She was just telling me she wished she had put more thought in to a type of contract but didnt feel the need to at the time cos she felt she had it all sorted,avery hard lesson to learn i think

Is there any sort of contract at all? And is the dog proven?

I agree with others that there should have been a contract in place and yes, it is a hard way to learn

Using a dog at stud is not without risk, your friend is not only paying for 'potential pups' she is paying for the stud dog owners time, their expertise, their commitment to the future litter, and their support and advice throughout the life of the puppies.  In this case she is also paying for the extra time and inconvenience for the owners to drive the dog to the bitch.  I appreciate that there were no puppies this time but the stud dog owner may still consider that he has done what they were being paid for. 

This of course is exactly why a detailed contract needs to be in place. If the stud dog owners terms were unacceptable then your friend could have looked elsewhere.  Exploring the 'what if' scenarios is important for both parties and I do think your friend has been a bit naive.  Has she been taken advantage of?  Possibly - it depends upon whether the stud dog owner is experienced. If so then they really should have taken the time to explain.  If not then they are both equally to blame BUT I think your friend is the one who will pay the price.  She ought to negotiate a free return if possible but I do think she is obligated to pay.  I feel sorry for her as it's an expensive mistake to make and one with potential to ruin a friendship.  Such a shame

Yes a very hard lesson to learn.The stud in question has only sired one litter as far as im aware and it was with her.I have t say that had this just been a business like deal with someone who wasnt her friend it wouldnt be so bad but i personally would not ask for the fee from a friend if there were no pups because the agreement was only if there were pups,thats why she waited for the fee and now there are no pups the agreement seems to have changed.I did try to contact my friend just now to get an update but no answer but will update tommorrow once i talk to her.. but yes i do feel very sorry for her too because she is struggling a bit just now,all her money goes on her dogs,they are her life.

Was there any talk about what would happen if the bitch didn't get pregnant?
I've reasontly come back from a stud with mine, in the terms the stud owner emailed me they said that that I had to pay a non refundable maiting fee (a small portion of the stud fee) at time of mating then the rest of the stud fee after the pups are born but before 6 weeks. I contacted them to double check about the rest of the stud fee if my girl didn't get pregnant and was told in that event I wouldn't pay the rest.
Allthough I guess if I had not asked them about it they could then demand I pay it, as realy when you pay a stud fee your paying for the male to mate your female.

Allthough if I had a stud I would feel right about having a whole fee if the girls owner didn't get a puppy out if it. That's why I like the way it's been done with the stud I used but most I know think that was is strange as they all have known it to be done by paying the full stud fee at time of maiting with a free return if no litter.

> as realy when you pay a stud fee your paying for the male to mate your female.

At last!  Yes this is true.  The fee isn't for puppies, it is for the male doing his job.  As a stud dog owner, and with a breed where the bitch messes around for ages, I really do my work.  I'm down on the floor with the dogs and I take responsibility for the bitch.  I've never yet had anyone say that they want to see to their own bitch.  To be fair, I do know what I'm doing, and I am very good with maidens.  So is my boy.  Yes, I offer a free return.  This is a courtesy, not a god given right.

I have a breed that doesn't have large litters.  1-3 pups being the norm.  So I only charge £200 stud fee, and not the price of a pup.  Seems a bit unfair to charge the price of a pup when there is only one pup, and a C-section costs around £1,000 so I consider it to be different rules to the breeds that have 'normal' sized litters.

I've had one owner whose bitch had one pup but it died. Now it wasn't compulsory to offer a mating FOC next season but I did.  And I didn't charge for crawling round the floor a second time!

It isn't easy to give definitive rules that cover all breeds IMHO.  (If I know the bitch owner really well I don't actually charge a stud fee.)

I suppose it also depends on how important your friend feels about her reputation within her breed. As you say there isn't anything written down about this particular situation she could just dig her heels in and say shove off!! Problem is if something like this happened in my breed we'd all hear about it and make our own judgments.

Jean,this stud owner just dropped the dog off and picked him  up a week later,she was not down on her hands and knees doing anything,my friend was and he didnt do his job,there were no pups and you are forgetting they are friends,what friends demands a stud fee double the price from a  friend in the first place( my friends fault for agreeing,if id known in wouldve talked her out of it cos the price asked is rediculous) and it was agreed only once the pups arrived and of course they didnt.I know most people here are talking on a professional level but this stud is not available to the public,he isnt being advertised and has only ever been used on my friends dog( stud fee was £200 cheaper last time).Its now been agreed my friend will travel down on girls next season which she is happy about although studs owner had added on another £200 for next time which my friend did not agree to so its back to the fee she was meant to recieve,all this has made my friend ill with worry,she says she will never agree to anything like that again so be warned sometimes in the world of breeding friends mean nothing1

>he didnt do his job,there were no pups

Well if the bitch was scanned, he was clearly mated, so yes he did do his job.  The job of the stud dog is to mate the bitch.

As far as I can see, you are paying for the bitch to be mated and for the Stud owner's time.  If that's what you get, then that's what you pay for.

To be charging for pups or per pup is ridiculous.  What happens if the litter dies one by one, as happens in some cases?   It then becomes a minefield.

As for raising the fee incrementally when nothing about the dog has changed (diamond encrusted sperm?), that would be a signal to me to go elsewhere.  I would take it that they were trying to discourage me from using their dog, but as friends, didn't like to come out and say it, in case of causing offense.

>I know most people here are talking on a professional level but this stud is not available to the public

You seem to mis-understand something here,  most stud dogs are not available to the public, they are available to selected and approved bitches only.    'At public stud' implies anyone can bring along their bitch and get a mating for a fee, but that smacks more of money making than a public service.    It's very rare that there is a need for a stud dog to be at public stud, and certainly no need in breeds which are not low in numbers.  Those that are low in numbers only benefit if there is a pressing reason for a partuicular dog to be used and this would be determined in collaboration with geneticists from AHT amongst others.

Yes i wish she had waited and gone to someone who wasnt a friend,paid the fee then just had a free return next time.Thats what everyone i know in my breed does but different breed so i cant help her.She had always planned to take her girl back for a repeat mating so her friend would get the money,she is a lovely honest lady  so its very sad it came to this.

Normally it's the Service you pay for when it comes to a stud fee.   However, there is room for individual arrangements.   For instance I'd not charge, or expect to be charged, for using an unproven male.   I also always gave one free repeat (usually to the same bitch from the same male) if there were no puppies, or only up to 2 puppies which I didn't take as constituting 'a litter'.   I had this in my Stud Agreement which both parties signed at the time of the Service.   In my breed, the cost of a stud = the cost of one puppy.   And although I find it 'messy' I know some will agree to a take back puppy rather than bother with money changing hands for the fee.    Personally I've never done with, either way - if I happen to be interested in the bitch's bloodlines, I might go see the litter and if I like, negotiate for a puppy.   Having already been paid for the Service.   Any such arrangement, take back puppy, should be set out in writing (whether it's pick or not, male or female etc.) so there's no misunderstanding.

It's more usual for the bitch to go to the stud dog who may well not perform off his own property.   And it might involve boarding the bitch for a few days, if she's not right on.    We had a friend who was really good at mating my breed (which isn't always easy - I only had one who would do it himself and who resented anybody butting in!!) and in that case, we made an arrangement to meet the owner of the bitch where she lived, taking our male over there.   We paid her a percentage of the stud fee!!!   Far better than messing around and getting nowhere I felt.

ps    I wish there was a TU option on this website - lots of answers that I would totally agree with
Overall GET IT IN WRITING!   And you pay for the Service - regardless of the outcome I'm afraid.  Assuming the male is proven.  As has been said, too many 'what if's' in not paying up front.   Eg - There may be a litter - none of which survives to be sold!!

It's more usual for the bitch to go to the stud dog who may well not perform off his own property.

I think this is another very breed specific thing. I have never taken a Papillon bitch to stud, the dog always comes here, and my mentor says that she has never had a bitch get pregnant if taken TO the stud so she would never again try the other way around. But in Malinois nobody would dream of the dog coming to the bitch.

I agree with the above, I broke my ankle just before my bitch came in this time and the planned mating was too far for me to travel to, the stud came here and we had no interest from him whatsoever, my girl was ready and eager, he just wasn't! So my girl went home with him and within 5 mins of getting to his house they were tied. I've always traveled to the stud before...dogs are sometimes fussy!!

he didnt do his job
So did he not mate your friends girl?
Providing the male has viable sperm he can do no more then mate the female, it's then down to her if she gets pregnant and carries to term.

has only ever been used on my friends dog( stud fee was £200 cheaper last time)
Some people will charge less for an unproven stud which would explain why it was cheaper the last time he was used.

Yes they mated but she missed,he was unproven the first time she used him and the stud fee was still higher than average,this time it was even higher.As far as im aware they have come to a decision to try again next season so the stud owner will still get the fee  and my friend has offered to cover petrol costs too,in my opinion i think this is very fair,they are friends after all

Yes they mated but she missed,he was unproven the first time she used him and the stud fee was still higher than average,this time it was even higher.As far as im aware they have come to a decision to try again next season so the stud owner will still get the fee  and my friend has offered to cover petrol costs too,in my opinion i think this is very fair,they are friends after all

>Yes they mated but she missed,

That's not his fault, is it? Has he sired any puppies at all in the past? A free return in the case of no puppies is conventional.

Then the stud did his job if they mated.
As I said people often charge less for unproven dogs then once proven the fee goes up the the full price they want. So if this stud owner wanted a very high price for his use the reduced price for being unproven would still be high priced but just not as high as the full price they wanted.

Sounds like your friend has sorted it all out which is good.

The agreement is whatever you agree to.

It very much depends on the breed, what is considered the 'norm'.  Also depends on how high fees are relative to price of pups.  Some breeds have low fees and you'd expect to pay whatever the outcome.  Even some breeds with high fees expect payment regardless.

I am very thankful that in my breed no stud dog owner has ever expected a fee when there have been no puppies, (especially as my last two attempts have had no result, and had bitches miss in the past) even when they have had the bitch to stay, though in those circumstances out of pocket expenses would be a moral obligation.

I have had friends in my breed put up my bitches for weeks (one time with a split season for a month) meet me half way and refuse petrol when and no fee because the bitch missed.

I certainly would not expect a friend to double the fee because of offering to travel, I'd expect to reimburse for fuel.

If you have nothing in writing it really is very much whose word a judge would take.  By getting in writing what is usual in your breed may help or hinder your case.  Especially useful would be to find out what the situation was when the dog was used last.

>To be charging for pups or per pup is ridiculous.

Actually that is the method often employed abroad and in some countries actually written into the rules that the Stud fee is a one off price, or a per puppy basis with nominal amount at time of mating.

I was offered this when I went to Finland with my bitch in 2006, but as I was being put up for over a week by the studs owners I felt it only fair to pay a full fee up front no matter the outcome, and they agreed the price we sold our pups, in UK at the time.

In 2010 I flew to USA, was put up by stud owners and her friend for two weeks, and paid price of puppy stud fee.  They then refunded this to me and I sent them one of the pups which they had the expense of shipping..

When I went to Holland I paid a one off handling fee on the day and then a price per pup which was reasonable. I think it is an excellent way to deal with stud fees. It is graduated and suits all parties. It worked out at less than I would have paid in the UK. I paid 200 euro on the day and 150 euro per pup born alive. With 6 healthy live pups I paid a total of 1100 euro which was aprox £950 where the common fee in UK is the price of a pup and that is around the £1300 mark in my breed.
If and when in the future I keep a boy (I will do one day ;-) ) and if he proves worthy....I will follow this as I feel it is fair to everyone.
Aileen

I agree with Barbara and Aileen. I think it's a very fair system to have a mating fee then a price per pup. I think it's fair on both parties. As a stud dog owner I have never taken a fee when no pups have resulted - I won't take a fee until the pups are born or until pups are sold. I recently asked a question on CD as to what people thought was fair if a very small litter was born. In my breed, the stud fee is generally around the price of a pup and an average litter would be around 8 pups. Most said the full fee was payable. I didn't feel right about that and charged only a fraction of the full fee when this happened with one of my boys recently.

From now on I think I will give people a choice of a set fee or a variable fee - their choice to be made at the time of the mating. I'll set it so that the fee for 8 pups is the same as the normal fee.

And I will add that when I have only charged a part fee, people have been grateful but no one has ever offered a larger fee for a big litter lol

Agree it should be easy enough to establish what is the average litter size in the breed.

Based on my own litters it's just under 6 reared live pups.  Most often 4 - 7 in my experience.

When I went to Holland I paid a one off handling fee on the day and then a price per pup which was reasonable. I think it is an excellent way to deal with stud fees. It is graduated and suits all parties. It worked out at less than I would have paid in the UK. I paid 200 euro on the day and 150 euro per pup born alive. With 6 healthy live pups I paid a total of 1100 euro which was aprox £950 where the common fee in UK is the price of a pup and that is around the £1300 mark in my breed.

Heavens, isn't that unnecessarily 'complicated'?    I also wonder if you'd have been so happy if you'd have ended up paying more than the 'price of a puppy' as a stud fee?    Mine can have up to 11 puppies which would represent a huge stud fee ..... the normal puppy price for our breed in the UK these days is £800 and upwards.   They are cheaper via a BYB of course.  If I was still out there, I'd still prefer to take an up front stud fee at the time of service, under a Stud Contract - the cost of one puppy.   And from the owner of the stud's point of view, that scheme (150 euro per live puppy born) surely still relies on the bitch owner being honest!!!   What proof of the number of puppies born would be required?

Heavens, isn't that unnecessarily 'complicated'?    I also wonder if you'd have been so happy if you'd have ended up paying more than the 'price of a puppy' as a stud fee?    Mine can have up to 11 puppies which would represent a huge stud fee ..... the normal puppy price for our breed in the UK these days is £800 and upwards.

I fully agree. The price for my main breed would be around £650-£700 normally and much as they often have litters of 7-8, 10-12 is far from uncommon, so that would make for one hefty stud fee. And to me, paying once pups were born would be the worst possible time -that's when you have all other expenses.

No I don't think its excessive at all. The initial fee for handling is just that, its for the time and trouble the stud dog owner goes to in handling their dog, usually at least twice. If no pups ensue then a free return is usually offered. Its to pay for the expertise they have and  I would expect a stud dog owner to be able to handle the mating's (I do help of course with ensuring my bitch is properly cared for ) If you put your dogs out to stud you should know what you are doing. The price of a pup in my breed at the moment is anything around £1350/ £1500 so the price then paid for a live pup of (With today's exchange rate)150E = £118 That's not a lot off the price of a puppy. Yes we can have big litters though 6 -8 is about average. with lets say 6 pups that works out at £33 for the handling fee and £118 for the pup = £150 aprox per pup off a price tag of £1400ish. Giving a price of £1250 per pup.That lessens a little with a larger litter as the handling fee is split more ways. With 10 pups the stud fee would account for £138 of the price of each pup.
Whay should it be right to change £1400 for a stud fee and expect it paid even if just one or two pups are born ? This was you pay for what you get. It would need to be adjusted to each breed specifically of course as I do know our breed is a high price breed.
Aileen

Obviously if the price of a pup is lower as in Mariannes case the price per pup would be much lower. I would suggest a handling fee nearer £150 and a live pup price of £70, with a litter of 10 that would give a stud fee of aprox £715. About average ?
Aileen

In my experience over the years in my breed a stud fee is normally about half the price of a puppy.

>In my experience over the years in my breed a stud fee is normally about half the price of a puppy.

In my breed it nearly always has been the price of a puppy (even going back through old journals to 1950's)

As a numerically small breed many stud dogs get very little use and the cost of health testing puts off many owners of males, as they have no guarantee after spending out £500+ that anyone will actually use their dog.

Any dog that has had more than half a dozen litters in his life will have a major effect on the gene pool here if even a few of his offspring are bred from.

Most used males may only ever be used once or twice.

I am hoping to use a male, who is a champion, currently this years second top CC winning male, he is 8 years old and only ever sired one litter.

No, its not complicated at all - a lot of people in my breed use this system.  Yes, bitches can have large litters but equally so, they can have small ones.  It is much fairer to pay a handling fee and so much per live puppy.  Yes, if you have a large litter the stud fee may seem excessive, but both bitch and stud have done a good job so I've no quibble over payment.
I have paid a stud fee at time of mating before, even though my bitch had previously had a litter, Idexx tested her & 2 matings she still missed.  Unfortunately the studs owners moved too far away for me to travel to for her next season.  Yes I lost a lot of money - but would I have wanted to go back and use a dog with whom my bitch didn't take - possibly not.
I would now never go back to paying a stud fee up front.  Yes, the system does rely on honesty.  It used to be that papers weren't signed until payment made, but nowadays with online registration this isn't so easy.

If I didn't trust somebody, I wouldn't be letting them use one of my precious boys! Money is only a small part of the "trust" bit involved with allowing people to use my dogs.

And people are mentioning not being happy about paying a large stud fee for a large litter, but surely they'd be happy to only pay a smaller fee if they had a smaller than average litter?

My point exactly, the fee reflects the amount of viable pups born. People are quick to suggest a lower fee if only one or 2 pups result but in a breed with an average of 6 -8 pups they would throw their hands up in horror at being asked to pay a little more if the litter have 10 pups Why ?
Aileen

People are quick to suggest a lower fee if only one or 2 pups result

I definitely prefer one fee whether it is 1 or 12 pups and indeed have paid stud fee for just one live pup. To me it seems almost immoral to charge per pup. After all, numbers is something we can't do a thing about -and number of pups conceived is down to the bitch, not the dog.

I can see some people would quite happily cull pups rather than pay a huge stud fee, and just pretend a smaller number was born. With so many hugely irresponsible stud dog owners in the UK already, this system is the last thing we need.

Marianne,  you just posted what I was going to write

Thank you :-)

I must say I find it very strange that stud owners are paid 'per pup'    as Marianne has pointed out,  the stud dog is responsible for one thing only -  delivering the sperm,  hopefully viable sperm so the bitch will be pregnant.

How many pups is determined by the bitch.   

Isn't it interesting to read this. What one person sees as trying to be fair, another sees as being immoral ....

Culling pups would serve no purpose and cost more than paying a slightly higher fee. If you can sell a pup for £500 why would you cull it to knock £75 off the stud fee ? That's throwing £425 down the drain !!
Its all down to each contract really and if you are not happy with it no one is forcing you to pay it.
For me its fair to all parties.
Aileen

Isn't it interesting to read this. What one person sees as trying to be fair, another sees as being immoral ....

Well said

Just reading out of interest, but what would happen if the puppies were unsold? ie, couldn't find enough homes at puppy age ans had to be homed to the forces or via rescue for no fee, I seem to remember goldmali saying in her main breed they are hard to find good home for and both bitch and stud owner often have to be prepared to keep them? And surely many people keep pups themselves, all of those puppies bring in no income to offset the studd fee.
(BTW, not  arguing one way or the other, I can just see a lot of points that would need to be very clear)

This is why stud terms are so varied in different breeds.

>If I didn't trust somebody, I wouldn't be letting them use one of my precious boys! Money is only a small part of the "trust" bit involved with allowing people to use my dogs

Well said.