Our new dog is much bigger than our existing ones. He's a large gundog breed, currently 54cm at 6 months, so likely to end up around the top of the breed standard, which is 67cm.

He constantly puts his front paws on the kitchen counters. Every time he does, he's told to get off and gently but firmly put back down, and praised for doing so. In a fortnight, it's the one thing he doesn't seem to be even starting to learn. Having come to us at six months totally untrained, he's picking everything else up (except retrieving) incredibly quickly. He is food obsessed. We don't believe in aversive training or in overly food-based rewards (why make it easy, I know). Obviously we could exclude him from the kitchen, but what I want is to train him to behave properly in it. He's not actually causing a problem, because he's not there unsupervised and the counters are already dog proof (the fiendish smallest beagle clearly can't reach, but can climb up there). I can't seem to find anything, though, which is more attractive to him than those counters.

Any thoughts most welcome.

>We don't believe in aversive training or in overly food-based rewards.
>Obviously we could exclude him from the kitchen, but what I want is to train him to behave properly in it.

Unfortunately your beliefs don't affect the laws of learning. If you are unwilling to reward  or use aversives then you will need to just wait until your dog gets fed up of jumping up on the counter and if he likes doing it you could be waiting a long time...

> He is food obsessed.

Even if your counters are clear he will be able to smell that there has been food on them.

> Every time he does, he's told to get off and gently but firmly put back down, and praised for doing so. In a fortnight, it's the one thing he doesn't seem to be even starting to learn.

I think he is learning very well actually. If he wants some attention jumping up on the counters is a sure fire way of getting it. He jumps up you no doubt touch him to get him down and then give him a fuss. And no doubt you totally ignore him when he is in the kitchen and not jumping up at the counters.

If you want to make progress faster than you are doing you will need to use some form of reward and food is the most obvious as it makes it very quick for a dog to understand  what you are trying to get through to him.

I have several ideas that might help but they do involve using food rewards however I dont want to spend the time and effort writing them out if you are just going to ignore them because they use food so if you are willing to try using it let me know and I will write something up. :)

As Smithy asks, how often do you praise him when he's in the kitchen and not jumping up at the counters?

Unfortunately your beliefs don't affect the laws of learning.

How true, smack on, which ever entrepreneur (mugford?) originally thought up this 'modern' training indoctrination technique got the 'human gullibility theory' right, bet his/her bank manager loved them.

Modern training myth
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fSlx6XXWoUg&list=UU2MktiTK0FWV_zmtKYndqphttps
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As Smithy asks, how often do you praise him when he's in the kitchen and not jumping up at the counters?

Another smack on right post, deserves an answer!
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Unfortunately your beliefs don't affect the laws of learning.

Gratuitously patronising remark.

If you are unwilling to reward or use aversives

A stupid remark which assumes that I am stupid. Of course I use rewards. How I else would I train my dogs to the high standard that I do?

This dog lived in a field till nearly six months old, had no contacts with humans, didn't know his name. After ten days here he is toilet trained, has near perfect recall and walks at heel on a loose lead. He is a very trainable dog and I am an experienced trainer.

I didn't say I don't use food treats; I said I don't like to over use treats, which I believe a lot of trainers do.

Yes, I give the dog a lot of praise when he is not doing the thing I don't want, reinforcing the positive behaviour with praise. I am not stupid. How else do you think i train my dogs without relying on food-bribery?

In this case, ignoring isn't effective as he loves the counters. Praising while down isn't effective enough either, because the counters are so attractive. And, as you rightly say, the act of moving him off, even if done sternly (he is very sensitive) is in danger of becoming a game.

Obviously, I could just bribe him down with food treats, which would doubtless have the desired effect over time. What I'm asking, though, is if anybody can see a way to alter this behaviour without resorting to food, or with food as an only occasional reward. He is (as yet, though this will change) uninterested in balls/toys.

smack on

The perfect choice of words for you.

Nobody doubts what your endless videos demonstrate: that it is possible to train a dog effectively using pain and fear, as you have. It is also possible to teach children the same way. That's against the law now, though, because it's uncivilised and unnecessary. Ditto with dogs.

You don't need to brutalise them and you don't need to bribe them with food. It's easier if you do, but it's not necessary. (Ditto with children).

A stupid remark which assumes that I am stupid. Of course I use rewards. How I else would I train my dogs to the high standard that I do?

You probably use 'negative  punishment' as the base of your training, the word 'reward(s)' does not belong to any theory of learning.
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You probably use 'negative  punishment' as the base of your training, the word 'reward(s)' does not belong to any theory of learning.

I was talking about positive reinforcement. And not in the context of an academic discussion, in which academic terms would therefore not be appropriate.

BeagleBaggie post 1
In a fortnight, it's the one thing he doesn't seem to be even starting to learn.

HP
Above is from your first post BB.

BeagleBaggie
I was talking about positive reinforcement.

HP
But according to your first post no 'positive' or 'negative' reinforcement is occurring, which is why you posted, all I did was reply!

BeagleBaggie
And not in the context of an academic discussion, in which academic terms would therefore not be appropriate.

HP
But 'positive reinforcment', which you said/think you used, is a scientific term, the fact is, whatever you are doing neither 'positive' or 'negative' reinforced behaviour is occuring with this particular dog, so the answer to your first post is that you need to look at something you are either doing or not doing.

Hope that helps but if your unclear then this edu vid emphasising 'negative' reinforced behaviour might help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE5HzM6cRX8
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As you are making sure that no food is ever left the behaviour should become unrewarding if no benefit is derived.

You could go to the extra trouble of wiping the counters down frequently with cleaners that are strong/unpleasant to smell or taste (but non toxic of course).

Mine all check the counters out, and I just live with it.  they have unfortunately had their reward from time to time when some folk are less careful about leaving edibles/chewables (tea towels) in reach.

Hope that helps.

Er, no.

I believe you have one dog, to train which you have had to resort to physical abuse, pain and fear.

I have several, all very well trained, using positive methods. I have one tiny issue with one totally untrained six month old dog that ive had had for ten days. I was seeking thoughts from like-minded people, which is why I summarised my basic training beliefs in my initial post.

I have nothing to learn from you.

My Doberman was 5 when I got her and very food obsessed, at her height her nose is level with the counter and as she is a poo eater I just wanted to break the habit of sniffing and licking. I don't like aversive techniques either but hygiene had to come first.
The only thing that worked for me was covering the counter with half a dozen plastic mouse traps and covering them with big sheets of tin foil.  The snapping noise and the pinging of the foil, especially if it caused it to fall from the counter really put her off sniffing up there.

I believe you have one dog, to train which you have had to resort to physical abuse, pain and fear.

Need a LIKE button! :)

BeagleBaggie, if you have only had this dog for ten days, I think personally I would wait it out. If there is no reward in jumping up with the paws on the counters, it will get boring eventually. And if there is nothing he can get hold of and damage, then no drawback to waiting him out. I wipe my counters down every day with antiseptic wipes (several times a day in fact) and I think it does help to some extent. The one thing the dogs are most likely to check out when they first come into the kitchen is the sink, in case there are food traces left inside it after having washed up.

As you are making sure that no food is ever left the behaviour should become unrewarding if no benefit is derived.

You're quite right. There is particularly a separate "dog counter" where their raw food is portioned, and where raw meat is often left covered to defrost (very slowly at this time of year). That's clearly what's (rightly) convinced him that counter tops are where the action is.

It will be inconvenient, but we will have to find a different place to defrost their food.

Not changing things because it's inconvenient to do to so is so often the cause of training problems. Like in this case, sometimes you don't even see obvious things, almost as though your mind quietly overrules them because of the inconvenience.

Once having trained him not to do it in the face of less temptation, hopefully we'll later be able to revert.

Thanks.

The one thing the dogs are most likely to check out when they first come into the kitchen is the sink, in case there are food traces left inside it after having washed up.

This is precisely what he does, and he can get his head right in the sink quite easily. Better sink discipline as well as the above, in which case.

Defrost elsewhere, clean the counters and particularly sink (even) more often, and wait it out.

Sounds like a plan.

Thanks again.

> but we will have to find a different place to defrost their food

I sometimes use the microwave or (unheated) oven (in warm weather to keep the flies off, not the dog :) )

As I see all of this, PROVIDED your counter is clear of food, apart from the hygiene aspect (wipe the counters over with a Dettol - or other brand! - wipe?) I really don't see what the problem is.   Provided he's not getting anything from the counters, I'd imagine that eventually he'll simply give up!!?   You might make sure he can't get into the kitchen/counters unsupervised?

One of our Bassets actually managed to get hold of a whole pork tenderloin, in the packaging too (never underestimate the neck length of the properly bred Basset!) which had been defrosting out on a plate on the counter.   I'd not have thought it possible, but I was up in the bedroom and happened to look out of the window - he was up the top of the garden with some thing blue in his mouth.  Yes, the base the pork was resting in, or had been.   He'd eaten the lot by the time I got to him.   Needless to say he had no more food that day - but he was fine.   More than I was as I had to find an alternative for supper that day.    After that, and there was no point for punishment (he actually knew what he'd done!!) I just had to make absolutely certain there was NOTHING within reach on the counter or drainingboard. 

> and wait it out

Yes :) Bramble was a Battersea stray who stole food from the worktop. What worked was making sure that he was never successful. He then never stole (or tried to steal) anything again :)

> Obviously, I could just bribe him down with food treats, which would doubtless have the desired effect over time. What I'm asking, though, is if anybody can see a way to alter this behaviour without resorting to food, or with food as an only occasional reward. He is (as yet, though this will change) uninterested in balls/toys.

I see three options for this dog (four if you include the 'waiting it out' option).

One - do not allow him any access to the kitchen counter.  Somewhat impractical!
Two - Body-block him every time he goes near it.  No eye contact, no hands so he's not getting the attention as such: just use your body to block him from getting up there.  Doable, but requires a lot of persistence, patience and no access to the counter when you are not right there ready to block him.  With some dogs you also need to be very quick.
Three - food.  You say he is food obsessed - so use it!  If he is that driven by it then you shouldn't need to 'over-use' it, as you say.  Reward him any time he goes near the counter but does not jump up.  If he goes to jump up but stops himself, reward him even more (encourages self-control).

There is a video for this problem from kikopup on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZCIeEUm_n8

The emphasis here is that he gets rewarded for resisting temptation and staying on the floor.

Sorry to gate crash the thread but just wanted to thank Nikita for the link to the counter surfing video.  I LOVE kikopup but I have not seen this one before.  Very useful indeed - I will be trying it with my crew.
B  X

My Doberman was 5 when I got her and very food obsessed, at her height her nose is level with the counter and as she is a poo eater I just wanted to break the habit of sniffing and licking. I don't like aversive techniques either but hygiene had to come first.

Fortunately this one's not a poo eater, and he's not getting to any actual food, so though some may worry about it, i'm not overly concerned about the hygiene. It's not so much that it's a practical problem - except that he gets in the way - as that it just seems a bit unruly. It's the kind of thing that appals non-doggy people, I expect. This thread has made me wonder though if actually i should worry about it less.

I sometimes use the microwave or (unheated) oven (in warm weather to keep the flies off, not the dog :-) )


Handy tip. The microwave is actually right next to the "dog food prep" area. That is exactly what we'll do henceforth: defrost in the micro. He will smell it less and won't see it at all.

Thank you.

> I sometimes use the microwave or (unheated) oven (in warm weather to keep the flies off, not the dog :-)"  )

Some friends always used to refer to their microwave as "the meat safe" since that's all they ever used it for.

Thanks Nikita for the link. I think you're right too about adding occasional food treats to the rest of the mix. That's precisely what I was looking for: a mix of tactics, one of which might be occasional food treats; rather than just 'treat him down'.

Lots of v helpful advice, I feel I have that now. Thank you all.

I sometimes use the microwave or (unheated) oven (in warm weather to keep the flies off, not the dog :-) )

When I defrost meat for my Papillons I normally leave it in the bowls in the kitchen on the counter, but if there are dogs in there I stick them in the microwave, just for safe keeping. Once upon a time, years ago, I used to put the big dogs' bowls of complete food in the normal oven whilst the food soaked, again just for safe keeping -from the cats mainly. A friend who was staying once watched me fill the bowls and put them in the oven, then asked "How long do you cook the dog food for?" :)

I also have to mention Rocco, a Malinois. When I get ready to feed the dogs, I line the bowls up in the kitchen on the counter, then let the dogs in. More often than not, Rocco will quick as a flash jump up and steal food from his OWN bowl. Never anyone else's, always his own. Sometimes just one piece of meat, sometimes most of it. It takes seconds -he does it while I close the door. So I simply give him his bowl with what is left in it and he looks SO upset when he spots how little food there is inside it! Yet HE was the one who already ate it. :)

Also have a look for lidded buckets to defrost food in.  I defrost my raw food in what I think are probably nappy bins - like this.  As we live in a rural area we have problems with flies in the summer and I don't like the smell of my dogs lovely raw green tripe so a lid is a great option for me.

If you find one with a fairly flat lid you can always stick a weight on it to ensure it can't be knocked off too easily either.

Good luck with the continued training - I like a clicker for these type of situations as you can mark the desired behaviours (all 4 paws on floor) so fast.

">A friend who was staying once watched me fill the bowls and put them in the oven, then asked "How long do you cook the dog food for?" <

That made me laugh, unfortunately one of mine can open the oven!

You know - the first few answers to this request for advice made me realise exactly why members of the public in the past got intimidated or uncomfortable with this forum and exactly why it no longer surprises me that members of the public on here sometimes people don't find this forum helpful or friendly - I myself actually cringed at the first few posts in the thread. I couldn't believe that when someone asks for help and advice the first thing that happens is they are answered with judgement and criticism based on massive assumptions rather than in any way trying to help. I was kind of shocked and disgusted to tell the truth.

But then the helpful and friendly answers and advice started to appear later in the thread, all of which I thought were great and I felt a sense of relief. Unfortunately newbies to the board might not have bothered reading the whole thread, you know?

I love this board, I learn tons every day, I'm not a breeder or a shower and don't purport to be any sort of "skilled" person at anything to do with anything - that's why I love the board since it is so informative and most of the time people are just here ready to help in a really friendly way - but when a thread "goes bad"  it goes really bad really fast - just like this one started. 

I really wish people would either post an answer trying to help or hold their spoked tongues because the trend on some threads of not helping whatsoever but just tearing apart the first post and the advice seeker is pretty disconcerting - I have no clue what people get out of posting pure criticism not even laced with any helpful suggestions whatsoever -  but I wish they'd stop.  I'm glad the later posters all rushed in to actually offer real help and advice. The rest? You should be ashamed of yourselves and you should think before you type.

BeagleBaggie
I believe you have one dog, to train which you have had to resort to physical abuse, pain and fear.

HP
Oh yea sure, anyone can see the bedraggled, downtrodden, depressed looking demeanour everytime I roar a command & stomp my feet at her, lol.

Recall From Squirrel Populated Wood
http://tinyurl.com/nnzstb2

Recall & Down From Play Situation
http://tinyurl.com/lbzxsae

Recall From Aggressive Incident
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8n_ZqJekyEQ
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BeagleBaggie
He constantly puts his front paws on the kitchen counters.

HP
The very first move is to clean the counter tops, it might not stop him immediately but he will slowly loose interest once he realises the tops are clean & nothing in it for him anymore.

BeagleBaggie
In a fortnight, it's the one thing he doesn't seem to be even starting to learn.

HP
The fact is that your dog is a prime example that 'commercial reward' pseudo-training techniques does not work & you need to move on to go forwards with your dog.

I suggest you learn the most modern training which is e-collar training.

Conditioning E-Collar Recall, Macfarlane
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsO66m4e820

E-Collar Confidence Building In Nervous Dog + Standard E-CollarTraining Techniques
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ceEMxUeiffU

Dogtrace E-Collar Training Video 2009.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nSIMTx7U5uc

The First E-Collar Training Video, TriTronics Pro Range, 2000
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRgHGyONWz4

E-Collar Training Sit By Touch-Carthy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-8CyBCG0LE
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BeagleBaggie
This dog lived in a field till nearly six months old, had no contacts with humans, didn't know his name. After ten days here he is toilet trained, has near perfect recall and walks at heel on a loose lead.

HP
Heavens BB, you omitted all those variables in your first post. Its just a pup, not even reached puberty. At that age & with his background I think for a month or two just keep the counters clean & habituate to your lives together, then see whats what, if you've only had him 10 days & he's still a pup, maybe be a bit more patient.
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Hear hear, I totally agree with you tinaradway.

I think you'll find that the tone changed when more information and explanation was given by the OP; people can only respond to the information given, not make assumptions and try to read between the lines. Crystal balls are notoriously unreliable! ;-) And, in fairness, I can see a lot of helpful advice given in the earliest responses as well, well-rooted in reality.

And (faints away in amazement becausse I could never have imagined such an event!) I actually agree with Hethspaw's last post!!!!

When I defrost meat for my Papillons I normally leave it in the bowls in the kitchen on the counter, but if there are dogs in there I stick them in the microwave, just for safe keeping

Sorry Goldmali but I couldn´t resist this.  Are the papillons not dogs?  Is it the other dogs or the papillons you stick in the microwave for safe keeping? ;-);-)

I think you'll find that the tone changed when more information and explanation was given by the OP; people can only respond to the information given, not make assumptions and try to read between the lines.

So what was it about my original post that merited such an extremely patronising and rude response?

I gave plenty of relevant information in a full and factual OP. All of the excellent advice which was subsequently given could have been so on the basis of the OP.

The tone changed when I stuck up for myself and began not to appear to deserve to be patronised and ridiculed.

"I think you'll find that the tone changed when more information and explanation was given by the OP"

Whatever changed the tone I'm grateful for it but to be fair if more information was required to give a helpful response I think it would have been best to simply ask for a little more information before offering advice rather than tear apart the original post and make assumptions. I do realise that often when we type on here the tone of our post can get lost when it is turned into letters on the screen and what may be meant in one way can in fact read in a whole different way - But to me - a mere member of the public - it appeared that the tone of the thread changed as soon as the original poster made it clear that they were in no way an uninformed member of the public but someone with significant experience/well informed. And there lies my concern - shouldn't this forum be to help anyone who asks for it - irrelevant of their knowledge base - otherwise members are going to be put off posting since they could fear only being treated respectfully if proven to be experienced in some way.

>it appeared that the tone of the thread changed as soon as the original poster made it clear that they were in no way an uninformed member of the public but someone with significant experience/well informed.

Far from it - the mention of the other dogs in that first post made that clear. :-)

I think (and could well be wrong!) that the "I could do this, or that, which is easy and would work, but is against my beliefs" made advising particularly difficult. It was almost as if the OP actively wanted to make things hard for herself and the dog - which I'm sure isn't true, but that was the message being given, however unintentional it may have been.

NOt read through all the posts, so sorry if I am repeating advice.
I know you'd rather not use food, but it seems strange not too. The dog is jumping up on the counter to get food, with a food obsessed dog you will find it next to impossible to find something else as rewarding as food, it's a simple as that.

Rewarding a 'foody' with food, is not really any different that rewarding a fuss-loving dog with praise - the thing the dog likes the most will be most rewarding and in 'high-stakes' situation will be most effective.

My dog was an utter monster for trying to steal food of the side, he wouldn't jump up to see what was there, he could allready see if if was worth jumping up and was big enough to knock me out of the way to get the food.

Keeping him out of the kitchen was OK, but it only avoided the problem, not helped it. So I realised rather than trying to STOP him from stealing, I'd teach him an alternative.

I found the best thing was to have my dog lay* on the kitchen floor and reward him with tid bits of food. This was quite often to start with - enough to keep him laying down. As he was getting it, I'd make him wait longer between rewards untill it got to the point he wouldn't attempt to get up, he'd patienly wait for the tidbit he knew he'd get when I'd finished whatever I was doing. This was then put on a variable rate of reward, then slowly the rate of reward was gradually moved to 'hardly ever'. It really was worth the effort. He is still food obsessed, he always will be, LOL, but he doesn't even have to be told anything, if he sees me preparing food, he may lay in the kitchen with me to see if he'll end up with or morsel, or he may go off back to bed. He simply doesn't even attempt to steal off the side anymore.

* I tried at first to have him sit, but it was still to easy for him to quickly jump from sitting, it takes marginally longer for them to get up from laying, so there is a little window of opportunity to stop them jumping if you've mis-calcualted and they get impatient (eg, if you see dog starting to make a move to get up, "no, wait" - or whatever words your dog knows).

> Obviously we could exclude him from the kitchen, but what I want is to train him to behave properly in it

Yep, so it's much more effective setting up for success and showing him what you want him to do rather than trying to just elliminate the behvaiour you dont want, especially as in this situation you can only show him what you DON'T want by him actually doing it in the first place (jump up, then get told down). Much easier to put him in a down-stay or relaxed lay and reward that as it's incompatible with jumping.

ETA, there is a difference between training and bribing. If you BRIBE your dog into doing something for food, it isn't being trained it's being lured. If you actually TRAIN the dog with food rewards you pair the feeling the dog gets from the reward with the action/command. Eg, the dog feels good doing X W or Z and after enough repitions the dog offer that behaviour because of it's internal response - not because you are wafting a biscuit about. If you can train a dog with a fuss you can train a dog with food, but it doesn't always work the other way around!! Independant thinkers are not going to see the point in some behaviours just because their owners say 'good boy'.

Thanks for taking the time, Mastifflover. It's much appreciated.

And the idea of training him to stay down while in the kitchen is a great one. Not only for the countersurfing, atually, but also because he's so big and (at the moment) gangly, and it's not the biggest kitchen, so it would actually be a lot easier if he just lay down in one place.

I'm going to try exactly what you suggest and see how we get on.

Many thanks again.

Sounds like you've all ready made loads of progress with him, now you have an idea to focus on re. the counter-surfing, I'm sure you'll have it sorted quickly.
Best of luck. xx