And if you have a bitch in season, you still take your male to the show?

Knowing full well that your clothes and possibly the male will smell of in season bitch?  

If a dog can smell an in season bitch from half a mile away, he can certainly smell an in season bitch on the clothes of an exhibitor or spectator.

I've had dogs react to me when my bitch was in season despite her not being with me, and I was wearing clean clothes too, but she did say goodby to me before leaving as she was upset at not coming along!

How do you train a dog to behave around bitches in season, surely for even the best of trained dogs the reaction to the scent of a bitch in season is basic instinct?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I think it's more prevalant than it ever used to be though!!

Probably because for many there are fewer showing opportunities and the cost of lost entry fees and perhaps hotel/camping fees to boot.

I know I enter fewer shows than I used to trying to keep to a show am month as that is what the budget will stretch to.  So often rather than risk the loss I enter a spayed veteran instead of one of the younger bitches.

Maybe that is the reason it is so prevalent in the USA where normal people showing their own dogs go to a Group/set/circuit of shows every few months, when they can get time off and afford to do the travel and overnight stays.

How do you train a dog to behave around bitches in season, surely for even the best of trained dogs the reaction to the scent of a bitch in season is basic instinct?

It's basic instinct for dogs to ignore their owner and run off on their own whilst on a walk, we train them to return.

It's basic instinct for male dogs to pee everywhere, we train them not to.

It's basic instinct for a dog to poo indoors, but we train them to wait, and go outside.

There are lots of basic instincts which we use training to adjust or bend to our purposes ;-)

I have never shown a bitch in season, I was tempted when a judge that had given one of my girls a RCC as a youngster was judging again when she was in her prime, I'd entered, she was looking fantastic but came in season 3 days before the show, she finished her show career with 2 tickets and a few reserves. Tempted yes but I didn't do it because I think it's simply not fair on dog owners. Anyone who does otherwise is, in my opinion, selfish.

I remember another show when I won the DCC and the BCC winner was in season. I didn't stand a chance in for BOB, even when we changed them around and put the bitch in front, my boy still wouldn't stand or move well, and he was a champion, normally perfectly behaved and had been used a few times. Faced with a girl in season he forgot every bit of his training and almost pulled me off my feet.

None of those behavioural traits you list are hard-wired for the survival of the species. Procreation is.

>None of those behavioural traits you list are hard-wired for the survival of the species. Procreation is.

So is eating but we still manage to train our dogs not to steal any food they come across that takes their fancy.

Some are more picky about their food than others, but I doubt there is anyone in this forum who could put a plate of roast beef dinner on the floor of the living room with four dogs in it, leave the room and expect it to still be there on their return!

>Some are more picky about their food than others, but I doubt there is anyone in this forum who could put a plate of roast beef dinner on the floor of the living room with four dogs in it, leave the room and expect it to still be there on their return!

You are getting Silly now! Obviously I wouldnt and neither would I put a bitch in season in the living room with four dogs and expect them not to mate her. But I do expect to be able to sit down in a public place and eat a roatst dinner without a passing dog helping them selves. I also do not allow my dogs to be continually  searching for food  to the detriment of what they are supposed to be doing such as showing.

If it wasnt bitches in season people would be "bitching" about something else
food on the floor of the ring.
Another dog has urinated,
The judge wearing sunglasses/skirt/necklaces/hats etc etc
Screaming children outside the ring
Quiet children outside the ring
Squeaky toys
Burger vans
Clickers
Other breeds of dog
Mobility scooters passing

I learnt long ago the only thing I can control in this life is what I do. I no longer moan about  this that or the other spoiling my chances of winning I train my dogs to cope with things.  There will always be distractions out there no matter what I do so I dont moan, I train!

JG 'thank you,' hard-wired' is a much better term.
LOL smithy my boys wouldn't want to mate with any of those on your list, & it's not about the individual 'what I do', but thinking about of others & how our behaviour effects & impacts on them. 

>LOL smithy my boys wouldn't want to mate with any of those on your list,

Lacy I am not suggesting your dogs would want to mate with things on the list :) I have just put down a selection of things apart from bitches that people regularly blame for their failure to win their class and I am sure there are many more. Maybe bithches are distracting for some dogs but there are plenty of dogs that do cope with them. Presumably the dog that wins the class over the distracted ones copes with the smell of bitch.

If taking a bitch in season affected every dog in the place  then maybe there would be a case for banning them. But it seems to me that it is only a minority affectedand if there were no bitches in season then their handlers would look for something else to blame rather than their lack of training.

So...

One person has already admitted to taking a dog to a show whilst leaving their inseason bitch at home.

Considering how dogs can smell/detect an inseason bitch from at least half a mile away,

How many would still go with their other dogs/bitches and leave the inseason one at home?

How many would stay away from the show with their other dog/dogs?

I fail to see how there can be a difference myself,  between taking the bitch or leaving her.   Her scent would be at the show regardless and would impact on others dogs.

>I always find that the biggest advantage once a bitch has been spayed -you can enter shows and know she will be able to go.

Agree and in my breed we are lucky that veterans are still competitive, in fact probably make up a good proportion of our entry.  My middle champion bitch has won more CC's since she came out as a veteran even though she went to fewer shows, usually as my stand in in case someone else might be in season.

>Then there are the breeds where the male dogs are known to NOT generally get on with others of the same sex.

That is what you'd think, but it was in a breed of that sort a large guarding breed where bitches seemed to be shown regularly and very obviously in season.  Though they always used to have two judges, one for dogs and one for bitches so maybe that was why and with falling entries they now more often have just one judge so maybe it happens less.

>Her scent would be at the show regardless and would impact on others dogs.

My dogs all live in close quarters and certainly when there is a bitch in season at home my shown ones do get checked over more often than otherwise.

I do find myself quickly stating the true case ;)

When people say "if you take a bitch to a show in season you are selfish"... Doesn't this work both ways? As a dog owner "if you expect bitches in season to stay at home, and limit their show career so your dog doesn't look bad in the ring, your being selfish".

If I, as a bitch owner, take my in-season bitch to a show, knowing full well how she might upset other dogs, then I'm the selfish one.

>If I, as a bitch owner, take my in-season bitch to a show, knowing full well how she might upset other dogs, then I'm the selfish one.

If I, as a dog owner, take my untrained dog to a show, and complain that a bitch owner has brought their bitch to a show rather than throwing away the entry fee and the chance of a win I'm the selfish one.

There we go then. I think that's cleared up the finger pointing. Both parties are just as guilty - bitch owners can't expect dogs to be behaved, and dog owners can't expect in season bitches to stay at home.

If I, as a bitch owner, take my in-season bitch to a show, knowing full well how she might upset other dogs, then I'm the selfish one

So are you saying that you would never take your other dogs to a show if you had one at home in-season?

After all,  both you and they would carry her scent.

seems we are going around in circles..again..

>So are you saying that you would never take your other dogs to a show if you had one at home in-season?

Personally yes, because I prefer to only show one dog at a time - I don't have a kennel-ful.

>    >If I, as a bitch owner, take my in-season bitch to a show, knowing full well how she might upset other dogs, then I'm the selfish one.
>If I, as a dog owner, take my untrained dog to a show, and complain that a bitch owner has brought their bitch to a show rather than throwing away the entry fee and the chance of a win I'm the selfish one.

If you say so. Does someone else have the right to deliberately nobble other entrants?

>If you say so. Does someone else have the right to deliberately nobble other entrants?

But the vast majority of dogs seem to cope with bitches being around as evidenced by the number of dogs that do go on to win their classes etc. I have been in the ring myself when one person has been complaining that there has been a bitch in season around but the other dogs (and Owners) arent bothered. Why should I miss a show  for a small minority if dogs?

>So are you saying that you would never take your other dogs to a show if you had one at home in-season?

>Personally yes, because I prefer to only show one dog at a time - I don't have a kennel-ful

But do you own just the one?   

Are you taking your one to the shows, whilst leaving a bitch in season at home, or is it just dogs you have?

Because for many, who are adamant that bitches shouldn't be shown in season, they have no problem taking their other dog/s.   And since they and their other dog/s carry the scent with them, it's a bit rich pointing the finger at people who do take in-season bitches to a show.

That smacks of "don't do as I do, do as I say"

If you miss 6 shows in a year with a bitch, then surely the simple answer is to spay her when she has been bred from and then campaign her heavily. I always find that the biggest advantage once a bitch has been spayed -you can enter shows and know she will be able to go.

This is a bit disingenuous.    You know full well that in many breeds, speying completely ruins the coat and the bitch, no matter how good before speying, would not do well in the ring.  So what would be the point of showing them?

And I've lost count of the times newcomers have been advised by veterans of Champdogs to campaign their bitches and only breed from them if they do well in the ring - ie independently proven good examples of the breed, as well as having the health tests.

>some of us have/have had both sexes, so know both sides

Thanks for adding this.  I never thought that people may think that I just own a stud dog!

I also have more than a dozen bitches.  So I'm used to managing bitches in season.  My boys crated together when bitches go out, and vice versa.  About change every hour.  :-)

I guess as has been said as there is no kc rule saying that in season girls shouldn't be shown, (unlike as barbara said fci has one) people here are free to do so if they want. So it comes down to what the owner wants to do.

For me I won't show mine in season, not just because I don't want to throw off the other dogs but due to the risk to my girl as some owners can't control there dogs at a show and I wouldn't want my girl jumped on or mounted as I'm going in or out of the ring. (One show I was at a short girl was being dragged around by her newfe who was trying to attack other dogs, she couldn't hold him back at all).
I also wouldnt use a squeaky toy, throw bait around or bounce balls around the ring either as I wouldn't want to do something that could easily distract others in the ring, but I've seen people do this and its completely allowed, all three could be big distractions for the others in the ring. When I get my second one (a boy this time) I will take him to a show and leave her at home when she is in season, yes I may have her scent on me but it won't be as strong as if she was there so shouldn't be as much as a distraction just as having bait in your pocket would be less distracting then throwing bait around in frount of the dogs would be.

But that's just how I see it, I wouldn't do it but as it's not against the rules I'll have to put up with it when I have a boy.

Tagging on at the end here. Whether fair or not to other dogs at shows I still can't believe the people take their bitches when in season due to the fact that they are open to infection, that to me is enough to not ever risk it.. Not every dog at a show is healthy

Playing devils advocate....

I don't show in season bitches as they would have to travel with my entire dogs in CLOSE contact in my car.

All my US friends find our UK attitude to this very odd. They just train their dogs that AT SHOWS they don't get bitches...end of.

Haven't owned males for a while ( currently have a junior male) In the past the dogs I owned were used at stud and had no issues with in season bitches at shows ( mentioned previously in my breed bitches are shown on heat frequently) At a show he was there to show not mate bitches. Matings always followed same pattern / routine and if that didn't occur sex wasn't on offer. TBH an in season bitch at a show would puff him up and he was probably more a show pony :)

In Groups and BIS at Ch level there will almost certainly be the odd in season bitch shown, even if it isn't done in one breed it's is ok in others. Show dogs need to be schooled to cooperate with handlers despite distractions.

Tooolz, that's completely true. In all the years I showed dogs in America I never once heard someone say they weren't going to bring their bitch to a show because she's in season. People tend to be quite respectful in terms of waiting until the very last minute to bring the bitch to the ring, warning the judge she's in season before they put their hand "back there", and making sure she is safely crated away from other dogs.

Because the boys are around bitches in season from a young age at shows, you don't see many that have an issue with it in the ring. I've handled proven stud dogs that go completely crazy around bitches in season at home but pretty much ignore them at shows. So it certainly can be done, especially if the handler of the bitch is respectful of other dogs.

I've brought a bitch to shows in the UK when she had just come out of season and once when she came in the day of the show, but never fully standing. Overheard a few people complaining that there must be a bitch in season around, but as far as I could tell they didn't have brilliant control over their dogs anyway and that was probably an excuse for a much bigger issue.

>I don't show in season bitches as they would have to travel with my entire dogs in CLOSE contact in my car.<br /><br />All my US friends find our UK attitude to this very odd. They just train their dogs that AT SHOWS they don't get bitches...end of.

Glad it's not just my US contacts and ot just my experience then or breed/group specific

I would never show a bitch in season and have missed many shows because of this. If people want to gain advantage by showing their girls thus so then fine. It is not cheating according to KC rules but............

If people shouldn't go to shows when they have a bitch in season at home what would happen if a judge had a bitch in season?
I have competed in agility for many years and before that in obedience. Bitches in season cannot be taken to these shows but I have never heard that other dogs from the same household cannot compete. It is accepted that they do and not seen as a problem.

>I have never heard that other dogs from the same household cannot compete. It is accepted that they do and not seen as a problem.

Dogs at shows have generally been bathed so the scent of an in-season housemate will be negligible and handlers (usually) have showered that morning and put on clean clothes. It's only in-season bitches who are dripping alluring scents all over the floor. Anyone who objects to exhibitors scattering bait on the floor cannot logically think in season bitches are all right.

>Dogs at shows have generally been bathed

Certainly in my breed it is best not to bath a  dog lesse than a few days before a show, and unless they get really dirty only get bathed a few times a year, usually to hurry a moult through.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">How about not taking the male if he can't be controlled around bitches?  I don't see anyoine suggesting that.

<img src="/images/mi_quote.gif" alt="Quote selected text" title="Quote selected text" class="qButton" />

Like!

What I find interesting is that the discussion here is about dogs in the ring being disadvantaged by the presence of an in-season bitch and the impact on a bitch's show career...what about the way a bitch feels in season? My girl doesn't enjoy having her backside handled by the judge when she is in season, so the simplest thing is to spare her the experience. Her show career, while important to me, comes way down the list of my priorities in terms of her care. I'd rather she enjoyed herself when we do go out than learn to put up with something she obviously doesn't care for.

>My girl doesn't enjoy having her backside handled by the judge when she is in season,

Mine don't act any different re handling when in season, my problem would be them trying to stand for males and bitches alike LOL

I think they'd love to go to shows and have their pick of boyfriends while in season, strumpets.

They spend their seasons playing trains rather than being down in the dumps. ;)

>My girl doesn't enjoy having her backside handled by the judge when she is in season, so the simplest thing is to spare her the experience.

Many bitches don't like strangers handling their rears when they're inseason, so this is another very good reason to leave her safe at home.

>I think they'd love to go to shows and have their pick of boyfriends while in season, strumpets.

>They spend their seasons playing trains rather than being down in the dumps. ;-)"

I'm glad it's not just mine!! lol

Yes mine don't act any different when in season, but I still wouldn't take them to a show because of the risk of infection and upsetting the boys.

Many thanks for all the comments and opinions. Have they helped ?? "No" not at all. I have mixed feelings on some of the points made and in particular "attending Shows for the Fun." Surely anyone that attends a Championship show is doing so in an attempt to win a CC, (not just for fun) why would we pay the additional cost than that of an Open Show if it was not for the CC. There are far more Open Shows available to all than Championship shows and just as enjoyable if a CC is not your priority.

There are very few Championship Shows in all Breeds when you are chasing for CC's, as in most you do have some exceptional Dogs that are going to win most top places, so by having to miss some shows for other reasons, then your chances are severely compromised.

As highlighted earlier: When you pre-book both the show and in my case a Motel / Hotel you can be looking at a cost of £100 plus in addition to missing out on a possible rare CC, so I must confess that I am swaying more towards the opinions of "Male Dogs should learn to cope." As a single Dog/Bitch owner a Crufts qualification may be a one-off chance in a lifetime, so I think I would find it very hard not to go if my Bitch had come in to season. If I was just attending Open Shows then I feel that this would be far more acceptable to have to pull out.

However! Again, many thanks for all your opinions and I believe that this is a hard one to give a definitive answer.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Surely anyone that attends a Championship show is doing so in an attempt to win a CC,

Not if your breed is numerically small and attending Open shows may mean your on your own or entries are very low.

So to meet competition it's champ shows.  Again if it was just CC's there would be not much  point in showing puppies, Veterans, and dogs already champions.

In the end you want to see how your dogs rate against the breed as a whole and that can really only be done at championship show level, in my breed with or without CCs' (get as good entries without as with at the more central/popular shows).

I no longer go to hardly any ordinary Open shows, excepting may regional Group show, one specially fro all the Spitz breeds and if a breed specialist judges a local Open show.