Long time lurker, first post - and I hope this is the right subforum for this question, which is a bit vague but I would appreciate feedback from you very experienced people.

At some point in the future, possibly the next couple of years, I would be interested in obtaining a popular toy breed pup with show potential so that I can give the whole show thing a go (and also because this particular breed has always appealed to me and I would like one as a pet!). But I'm really daunted by the prospect of approaching breeders, as I know that this breed often has very small litters and I imagine that responsible show breeders have few or none 'spare' each time - so why would they sell one to someone who has never owned that particular breed, and has no show experience whatever? I'm kind of anticipating rejection and I wondered if there's any good way of making myself a better candidate. Would attending shows as an observer be a way of getting to know people? Are show people happy to talk to complete beginners?

Also, I have a fabulous two year old medium-sized working line gundog bitch. I don't work her - I go on long walks with her! - but I'm also worried that breeders of the toy breed would be concerned she would be too boisterous with one of their babies. I did own a tiny toy bitch (not the same breed I'm now interested in) but she died before I got my current dog, so I've never had two dogs at once and don't have personal experience of that dynamic.

In all other respects I think I can offer any dog a pretty good home (don't work, live in the country surrounded by woods), but I would really like some idea of how realistic it is to expect to buy a toy pup with show potential with no experience and with a bouncy gundog in situ!

Tough one really. A lot can depend on the breed -people can be more open towards newcomers in certain breeds than in others. But yes, it is correct that in toybreeds it would be hard to be able to get hold of a show quality pup due to litters being so small. You may have a chance getting a dog pup, but for a bitch I'd say the possibilities would be almost zero.

I think going to shows and talking to breeders can be a good way -but again some breeds are more welcoming than others. There really is no definitive answer. Breeders like anyone else vary so much -some would be delighted to have a potential puppy buyer stating they would like to show and would like to learn it all from them, others would not. I've come across both types myself. Personally I would be delighted if a puppy buyer wanted to show! So what if you are a newbie, we all were once when it came to showing.

And yes, a lot of toy breeders would have reservations about there being a bigger dog in the household. I have little and large myself -Papillons and Malinois. The size difference is significant, and I have found that you simply cannot EVER risk to leave the dogs alone together. Accidents can happen so easily -all you need is for the bigger dog to accidentally step on the smaller one. Also walks are not always practical -it depends on the dogs. I would happily walk an older large dog of mine with a little one off lead, but the youngsters -never. The youngsters can run so fast and be so boisterous that they can so easily run over or into the smaller dog and cause serious injury. So it's either walk each breed separately, or have one on lead and the other off lead.  They GET ON just fine, that's not the issue. So I cage my Paps at night or if I leave the house for a short period of time such as if I go shopping. If I am going to be gone for longer, I kennel the big dogs outside. Only this summer we had an accident due to not separating little and large. I thought it was safe because my adult stepson was here so could keep an eye on the dogs. Not going into details we came home to an injured Papillon having been rushed to the vet, and since that day we never take any risks. So I think you'd need to consider all practicalities carefully, and have it worked out before talking to breeders, so you could assure them that you HAVE thought of everything and a pup from them would be safe.

I have a well bred 'toy' breed boy, I researched my breeder well and approached before she had a litter, I was added to the waiting list and when he arrived he was mine. Don't count yourself out! Most reputable breeders will be very happy to help someone just starting out as long as your responsible and can care for your new addition.

I too have a working line Lab. So I have a little and large, they are absolutely fine together and my larger dig mothers my 'toy'. She say on him once and he made sure she regretted it! You just have to be super careful when your smaller dog is a puppy. Mine have always shared a large play crate at night with no problems, he now sits on her, apprently she makes a good cushion!

For me to sell a show potential puppy to a newcomer, because of my previous experience, the owner would have to show some sort of committment and attend (and learn from :)) shows to prove to me that they would put in the time, money and energy that it takes to show a dog.

I have in the past sold to people who said that they wanted to show, but the dog has never been to ring craft let alone a dog show and so I would be much more cautious these days.  But I have also chosen to sell a good prospect to a good pet home who shows rather than a big breeder who would have kept my puppy in a kennel and just taken it out to a show once a month and probably made them up! 

Introducing yourself, forming a relationship with the breeder spelling out your aims and hopes, being realistic about what level you expect to succeed at...will all set you off on a firm footing with any honest breeder.

In many toy breeds it is very difficult to get a bitch from often small litters ....so being open to a male puppy will open up your chances somewhat.

Good luck.

Attending shows and getting to know your local breeders would be a very good way to get to know people and make it clear you are serious about getting into showing. Luck plays a large part of it too alas! 12 years ago I was in an even worse position than you as I'd never owned a dog at all! I'd read the books on the breeds I was interested in and the chapter on showing looked like fun, so when I went to view puppies I said I was interested in going to the occasional open show just for fun. As it happened the colour and sex of puppy (popular toy breed like you!) I was interested in was probably the most common in my breed, and as the breeder I ended up with generally kept bitches of a different colour, she was willing to sell me a potentially good puppy. Of course then it turned out he was one of the best dogs she'd bred in 20 years, I very nearly didn't get offered him after all as he was looking so promising, and he won me a CC, 2 Firsts at Crufts, a Show Certificate of Merit and numerous BOB awards. He died 4 years ago and I still miss him like mad!

That got me hooked on showing, and I was again lucky to get a bitch in a less common colour, who is now nearly 10 years old. Since then however I have struggled to get another good puppy to show - I tried breeding my own but between pot luck and the health restrictions on my breed was largely unsuccessful (though the bitch I kept is a fabulous pet and a rally champion), and the show potential puppy I bought in is reasonable quality but nothing special. I hope in another year or two to be on the lookout again, but even though I am reasonably known in my breed, and whinge to show people constantly about not being able to get another show potential puppy haha, I'm still having no luck.

I would say that if you set your sights on a puppy without any major disqualifying faults, it's not the end of the world however if your first show puppy isn't top quality - yes I was lucky in my first dog, but in many ways it's not a bad idea to have a medium quality dog to make all your initial handling errors on! I know quite a few early show reports commented on my handling and pretty much said that we won our award in spite of me! :-D You would also have to reassure breeders than you can control your bouncy gundog particularly while the puppy is so young. As it happens I also own a gundog as well as my toys, but it's the smallest gundog and the biggest toy, so the size difference is not very much.

I have a well bred 'toy' breed boy, I researched my breeder well and approached before she had a litter, I was added to the waiting list and when he arrived he was mine. Don't count yourself out! Most reputable breeders will be very happy to help someone just starting out as long as your responsible and can care for your new addition.


I picked out this reply because I have to agree, especially when it comes to males.   Most breeders, whatever the breed, tend to want bitches when they breed, and can only keep a limited number of males, if more than one at all.   So provided you state your intentions, want to show, I'd hope most breeders would welcome you with open arms when it comes to letting you have a promising male.   Not however, you may be better to save up and hope to buy one that has matured a bit - perhaps one that was 'run on' by a breeder so she had more time to make her choice.   Assuming more than one is good enough to show!    I bought the one I have now, at the end of my own bloodline, at 4 months as a show potential - unfortunately that didn't work out as intended!!  So I have a lovely pet (which all my shows dogs were firstly) with show faults!!    If you buy a slightly older pup, it might be better given your situation with a bigger dog there already.

As for when and where to approach a breeder - whatever you do DO NOT approach a breeder before they've been in the ring!!!  And if she's been thrown out with the rubbish, it might be as well not to bother then either!!    I went online when I decided to try another breed and found some breeders reasonably locally, phoned them and went to see a couple.   Could be because I'd been in my main breed for ions, but I was welcomed - and was even given the chance to pick the BITCH I preferred, of the 3 she had.   It so happened she was keeping a male from that litter, so that worked out well.    

Some breeders are more open to genuine enquiries (show) than others, and indeed, some breeders in some breeds are more welcoming than others.   Don't give up if you get rebuffed at your first attempt!!!   That relationship would never work in any case and you do need a mentor with a new breed and getting into showing within that breed.

I would just say that getting into my main breed, all those years ago wasn't plain sailing really.  There happened to be a major breeder quite close and I thought I liked her stock so bought from her.  No choice, just 'this is your male puppy'.   Fine.  We thought we had the next Crufts BIS on our hands - until I started taking him to some small local shows.   Reality kicked in.  Well bred pet and that was all.  During that first year, I'd joined the Breed Club and met up with a fellow exhibitor who bred the occasional litter.  She had a lovely male puppy out and over time I persuaded her to do a repeat mating, with me being allowed to have pick male.  Actually as often happens, he really wasn't much like her puppy but we did, having skipped the Pond, show him in Canada and he took a Can.title.   Having ended my bloodline, when I looked for another of my main breed, finding one I liked proved difficult - but then I'm more picky now than I was with our first one!!!

As a breeder who can only keep a limited number and only bitches I am so often disappointed not to find someone interested in showing for the most promising pups in a litter, especially the males.

Do often someone who says they will disappointingly doesn't.

The nicest bitch in my last litter hasn't even been transferred into new owners name and they came to my lcoa ringcraft once.

the second best bitch is shown a little but they are in Scotland and have missed some of the few opportunities to show because of work commitments.

the best male went to s super home with someone who works for guide dogs, but has as yet not been shown, and they have now been posted to France.  They are now a year old.

In my breed which is low in numbers and so few new pups being shown we are desperate for keen newcomers to get seriously involved in the breed.

With so few new pups going into the show ring breeders have virtually no choice in new stud dogs.

Thanks for all the input everyone! It's all really interesting. As I thought, attending shows, watching and talking to people seems to be the way forward, along with thinking through the practicalities of keeping a little one safe around my big bouncy girl. I'm going to look up shows local to me and take it from there. :)

The best shows to attend are the breed club shows for your breed, followed by general championship shows where the breed has Challenge Certificates on Offer.

You may get some being shown at smaller local shows but not usually a representative number, and you might find none at a given show.

I'm probably not going to make myself very popular here - but choose your breeder and your dog for you as a pet first and foremost and utmost and do it on the assumption that you cant show - then if you can - all well and good - and if you cant? pff so what you have a great dog. Nothing in life is guaranteed.  Sorry about the length of this post I have a problem that's gone untreated.. an inability to keep things short and not waffle.  This is how I met and trusted a great breeder and perhaps a way you could use to find yourself the right show-breeder or get "into" the show business..

During my search for a breeder I attended shows and talked to showers and breeders and in the process "got the bug" and loved the idea of showing my dog.  When I met my chosen breeder for the first time she was awesome and completely honest.  She told me point blank "I make no guarantees of health or anything else - the only thing I will guarantee is the temperament". It became clear to me not that she was insecure about the standard of her dogs in any way - but more unable to know how anyone can guarantee the health or show-quality of any animal especially when they themselves are not raising them - i.e. because how she would train, feed, groom, kennel/house her dogs - is not likely to be exactly the same as any owner and those things can obviously affect show potential and health.  I took no offence, in fact that one sentence made me trust her implicitly since she had been so honest. She then took the time to show me & let me try my hand at hand-stripping and talked me through grooming for show etc. Then when I popped by the Richmond show grabbed me, took me to where the exhibitors were and let me see all the work behind the scenes so to speak.  She was perfect.  The dog I bought was sired by one of her dogs (bitch from another kennel) and I met her entire brood including my dogs Daddy when I went to her house the first time - she whelped the litter for the bitch's owner (its was the bitch's first littler) & mother and pups stayed with her - I met the mother and pups through a quiet peek in the door when they were very young and watched them being fed, and visited again later on. Maybe I was a bit keen (especially as she lived 2 hours or so drive away) but the breeder was really lovely, welcoming, informative, more than willing to share any help and advice about showing. If you are looking for a good breeder of a dog you potentially want to show then I think that is the sort of breeder you should look out for. Those that love the breed seem to want to encourage showers of the breed - at least that was my experience.

Fast forward a few months - I had the light of my life with me and took him back to the breeder who offered to do the first "tidy-up/groom/strip" for my puppy and check him over (see what I mean about her being great??) He was 4 or 5 months old I forget which now but that day I will NEVER forget - it makes me laugh every time I think of her face as shes feeling him over and she turned to me and shouted "what have you done with his balls????" - I think she thought she had a moron on her hands that wanted to show but castrated the dog - but nope - they just never appeared!!!  I say its funny now - but at the time I burst into tears thinking I had done something wrong!  She calmed me down and a cup of coffee or two later advised me what to do and when to take him to be checked at the vets if nothing appeared but she did say she couldn't feel either on their way and she wanted to know what the vet said as she would have to speak to the bitchs owner about it aswell as it obviously impacted on any thoughts of further breeding from the parents depending on the diagnosis and what happened. She then gently broached the subject of whether I wanted to give him back and for her to contact me with an offering from a future litter instead and even suggested a girl from a litter her bitch was expecting.  It was a kind thing to ask/offer and something I'm sure someone hell-bent on showing for the first time may have considered - but not me - I buy a dog for life no matter what. It would've literally killed me to lose him. (he was a rare case as it turns out of empty scrotum syndrome - no balls at all - but with all male attributes, no female)

So that was the end of the showing thoughts at that time..as I also wouldn't take on another dog until my puppy was at least 18 months old (no real reason - just the way I would do things). I don't show now although I still go to crufts every year, pop along to my favourite show, the LKA, and the Richmond show in the summer & bless her my breeder is there - always recognises me and talks to me. The only reason I don't show now is not because my boy cant, since I could have shown my girl who I got 2 years later, but because instead my family hit hard times with health the year I got my girl and I spent the last 7 years or so nursing my gran with alzheimers etc - time constraints and priorities meant showing just wasn't a possibility.

My point is - you cant look at a litter of pups and KNOW if one is going to be the show dog to end all show dogs or even able to be shown - any breeder who says they are certain is possibly not being 100% honest - many times it is in the hands of fate and fate alone.  At the end of the day you don't know what is going to happen - so choose the dog and breeder for you so that you do your very best to get yourself a dog from proven parentage, a trustworthy breeder, and the most important thing of all - a good temperament.  If the dog turns out to be perfect for show - great - but if they don't - or you cant show for any other reason - you have still got a perfect temperamented beautiful companion.  And I hope the above waffle of mine shows you what I did to meet showers/breeders and what I thought made a good breeder for me in case that helps you in putting your toe into the scene and meeting people who may take you under their kind wings.

Good luck honey! :)

>but choose your breeder and your dog for you as a pet first and foremost and utmost and do it on the assumption that you cant show - then if you can - all well and good - and if you cant? pff so what you have a great dog.

Any dog I sell or keep has to be a pet first and foremost, but it would  be silly not to choose or have the breeder choose the most promising one if you wish to show, or to buy one that obviously was not show quality, if nothing else you could cause embarrassment to the breeder if they weren't aware you wanted to show and had placed better pups in purely pet homes.

I have kept promising pups that have not made the grade as top winners (capable of winning CC's), and kept one purely for the bloodlines (went abroad with bitch) who I knew would not.  I have been lucky to make up three champions from the 9 I have owned myself plus and imported dog in partnership.

I have shown all my dogs some with less success but still enjoyed taking part, and one has not been shown at championship level since Junior as she has an obvious cosmetic fault.  I was going to show her in veteran at club open shows, but she has worn her teeth down to the pulp, and bite is basically even as she has been a heavy duty chewer.

My point is - you cant look at a litter of pups and KNOW if one is going to be the show dog to end all show dogs or even able to be shown - any breeder who says they are certain is possibly not being 100% honest - many times it is in the hands of fate and fate alone

Yes that is indeed very true -but as far your story (and I so like people like you where the dog comes first no matter what and you can't bear to rehome a dog no good for showing -I am one myself) one thing that should be mentioned here is that in the case of testicles (which I funnily enough started a thread about today) when you buy a male pup and have intentions of showing, you should make sure both testicles are there when you collect the pup. It is the only way to be certain that they will appear, and they SHOULD be there at 8 weeks. I'm not at all a fan of people who say that they can drop by such and such an age -yes sometimes they do, but if it is all then forgotten about and the dog is bred from, you invariably end up with more late developers. So check testicles at time of collection. I've made the mistake myself -not checked my OWN pups and let a friend have a pup who ended up with just one testicle. I now make sure I know what's what before I let a pup out of my sight.

"but it would  be silly not to choose or have the breeder choose the most promising one if you wish to show, or to buy one that obviously was not show quality"

Completely agree brainless I meant it more in the way of keeping her state of mind in check rather than getting swept up in it all - i.e. find the right breeder and dog for you that shows the promise you hoped for  - but keep your mind in the "I have a promising beautiful pet dog I hope to show" rather than "I have a show dog that might not be good enough to show".. if that makes any sense?

and.. Goldmali -I totally take on board what you said and I absolutely believe you're right and if I bought a boy again I would be far more thorough but he was my first small breed dog and I think westies quite frequently aren't fully descended at 8 weeks and 12 weeks if fairly common (the vet wont even consider looking at it as a problem until over 4 months I believe) but you're right, most boys I think should show or at least be able to be easily felt on route at 8 weeks maybe

.. but no matter - I'm a true believer that in the end you'll always get the dog you were meant to get for better or ball-less...... he was a fairly rare case as it turned out - nothing there at all, not retained and not an anarchid as he had no female parts or traits either - and is a little boy in all other ways - vet said it is likely to forever be a mystery  - but it bothers me none since if that's what he had that made him be such a sweet calm and quiet terrier then I'm just lucky - I walk him into the park and I swear everyday I get approached by people saying they haven't seen westies like mine before (I should tell them there are loads, go look at a show dog but instead I just smile and lap up the flattery !!)  - and the way wallace hones in on any child upset, any person sick, and every elderly person that likes dogs in a 5 mile radius and seems to put on a show to make their day treating them all so gently  - he's pretty unique (also makes a great contrast to my Lotte girl who after 7 years still hasn't realised she wears a collar and leash when she see's a squirrel move... or a conker... or a leaf... or crisp packet........)

Bless interestingly there is a ball-less Cavalier that I know and they never did find any inside when they went looking (the vet that is).

Hi,

I was much like you. I researched what breed I wanted and came to the conclusion of a Papillon. I already had two other dogs but not a recognised breed.

I went to Crufts for the first time and spent the whole time talking to a long time breeder and exhibitor and watching the judging of this one breed.

I then contacted breeders and luckily, only the week after Crufts, I received a reply from one. I researched the breeder and emailed back and forth. She invited me to come to see the puppy, this was two weeks after Crufts. We spent three hours there.

Then the breeders said that they would bring him to my house. They didn't use the word but it was obviously a homecheck. Three hours and paperwork later, they left him with us on the 1st April.

He is my first dog I can do "proper" shows with. I was at Crufts with him this year, we usually get first place at open shows and won our class of 7 at Richmond. :)