I've just been browsing the cocker litter adverts on Champdogs for no particular reason (maybe just need a little quite time from my gang!).     There is a litter on there out of a sable bitch who is a prcdPRA carrier.      She has a litter by a prcd clear dog.    Now I've just realised that the KC have reckoned that sable is a non-recognised colour.   

I guess these pups will go to pet homes who may not realise the implications that their pup may also be a prcdPRA carrier   Probably less important is the non-recognised colour, but it would be interesting to know why, in particular, the KC have made it non-recognised  Unless there is a linkage to an important health issue.     Does anyone know more than I do (not difficult !)

Jo

Oh gosh.. I wish I hadn't seen this question ....

The sable dispute has been on-going for some years. I will try and summarise it:

The Cocker Spaniel Club and the Cocker Spaniel Breed Council govern certain aspects such as the breed standard and the health and welfare aspects of the breed. These committees looked at lots of information about the sable cocker and reams of research and genetical information and decided that the colour will no longer be a recognised colour and it has therefore been removed from the breed standard.

It was done because it was felt that this colour is detrimental to the Cocker breed, not because of an important health issue.

One of the overwhelming points was that this colour is not actually a colour but a pattern and is so dominant that it could override all other solid cockers and basically wipe out the red, black and black & tan cocker in a few generations.

I have a sable girl, whose sire is sable. He; before Sable become an unrecognised colour, did very, very well in the show ring. He is an excellent example of the breed, as is my girl; and at the time the Sable Cocker was being carefully and thoughtfully introduced in the UK.

Sable breeding has now become overun by backyard breeders due to their "higher price tag", and they have been mixed so heavily with both solid and parti lines to create "rare" colours that it has completely spoilt it for those who wished to have a Sable line.

My girl is now just a beautiful pet, as although her she is a beautiful example of her breed in every way I will not be judged or allow her to be judged by others as the first thing any of my peers and a judge now sees is her colour, rather than an excellent example of our breed.

Rant over ....

I guess these pups will go to pet homes who may not realise the implications that their pup may also be a prcdPRA carrier 

What does being a carrier matter for pets? as its ressive a carrier won't get the problem. It only matters if someone wants to breed as they would need to find a clear stud to not risk producing affected pups.

>What does being a carrier matter for pets? as its ressive a carrier won't get the problem. It only matters if someone wants to breed as they would need to find a clear stud to not risk producing affected pups

And of course any responsible breeder should endorse the puppies progeny not eligible for registration, and if someone wants to breed then they need to get their puppy tested and choose a suitable mate with the help of the pups breeder.

But we all know breeders who only breed for colour wouldn't necessarily know or care of the importance of getting the health tests done, or having the litter registered.

Well such irresponsible puppy producers are taking a chance same as anyone else who doesn't test, the chance they will be breeding carrier to carrier.

Irresponsible breeding will always continue for as long as the pups can be sold.

Until buyers insist on only buying pedigree dogs/puppies that are Kennel club registered and whose PARENTS have appropriate HEALTH TESTS, and have been mated to prevent/reduce risk of breed specific inherited diseases.

Thanks for the explanation Darwinawards - do you know the genetic make up of a sable?    What exactly is the definition as far as cockers are concerned?

Carriers, per se are not a problem if you know what you're doing, and decide your pup is good enough to breed from.    I just worry that they  might end up being badly bred because of the 'rare sable' colour mentioned above.

Jo

The sable gene in English Cocker spaniels is (according to Vetgen) not the same as it is for other breeds. It is located on the "E" series. The best explanation I have ever seen can be found here:

http://www.powerscourt-cockers.co.uk/advice_pages/coat_colour_inheritance.htm

With regards to carriers you are completely right in your concerns. Sables are being badly bred throughout the UK,and puppies that come from parents who have not been health tested  are being sold without endorsements as they then command a higher price tag. Many reputable breeders have now stopped their exploration in Sable and therefore the majority of Sable pups will come from backyard breeders who have very little regard for anything other than profit.

There are some exceptional Sable Cockers in the UK, and I hope that when all the hype around Sables has settled and there is no more profit in them as buyers return to more traditional colours that they will be allowed to be recognised and quality lines can be developed.

Thanks for that link Darwinawards

Jo

Interesting thread - and thank heavens coat colour really isn't relevant in my main breed.   It's really only a matter of preference (and mine is for the dark tricolour).   It was true that if a breeder concentrated on the bicolours, they could risk losing pigment so it was a good idea to use a dark, or just a tricolour from a strong line of tris, every once in a while.

It does concern me with all this however, that even if as my limited brain will take onboard, the sable will mask the other solids in the Cocker, it's more about colour, than health?   Or does the sable gene also mean 'nasties', health-wise, are carried within the sable gene?

I do use Mendel's Theory in terms of -  

Affected to Clear = All Carrier
Carrier to Carrier = 25% Clear, 50% Carrier and 25% Affected
Clear to Carrier = 50% Clear and 50% Carrier.
If I have it right!!   In terms of it affecting health problems in my breed.

You're only talking about recessive genes there - not all health conditions are inherited by a simple recessive ;-)

The sable gene is all about colour / pattern ... there is no evidence to suggest any additional health issues compared to solid and roan. Of course all health tests should be completed, but these tests arebreed specific, not colour specific.