No surprises there then ?? :- https://www.dogstrust.org.uk/whats-happening/issues-campaigns/puppy-smuggling/puppy-smuggling-scandal

Indeed.   And this has been going on for some time, especially from places like Hungary.   Relaxing the rules with Pet Passport was totally a wrong move.   All 'we' can do is spread the word re buying these hapless puppies.   Trouble is people don't listen!!

The BVA is not concerned about the new import laws, in fact it welcomes them, it is concerned that there might be inadequate controls in place at customs.

http://www.bva.co.uk/News-campaigns-and-policies/Newsroom/News-releases/Vets-share-Dogs-Trust-concern-over-illegal-puppy-imports/
.

Main problem the main market that these and other commercially produced pups are supplying are mostly unsuitable homes.

"All dogs deserve a home but not all homes deserve a dog"

Well it may be untrue but I have been told that Dogstrust import litters from Eire from puppy farms and may be from elsewhere, would be pleased and delighted if someone can tell me this is not true.

I have been told that Dogstrust import litters from Eire from puppy farms and may be from elsewhere, would be pleased and delighted if someone can tell me this is not true.

I doubt anyone would be able to prove exactly what the top rank's 'out of pocket personal expenses' claims were for........but

http://www.cfba.co.uk/can-you-trust-the-dogs-trust.html
.

It's true as someone on our breed group got her mostly Elkhound when the pregnant bitch and sire both were shipped in and bitch whelped next day.  Both from a puppy farm. 

Yet they decry good breeders, along with the bad,  and don't want people to have the choice of a well bred pup.

Really do not understand how a charity can be purchasing from puppy farms outside the UK importing them to rehome and then complain  about shortage of funds and kennel space at the same time criticizing those who are breeding with care and research in this country. I give up with most animal charities they all seem to be in it for some ulterior motive that has nothing to do with the care of our own home produced pets, they all seem to have some sort of political agenda and to my mind that should not be called a charity nor should it seek funds from the public without explaining what they intend doing with your money. 

If the DT ARE importing whole litters from puppy farmers(which I very much doubt)in Ireland(ie the Republic of Ireland)then those puppies will be 3 months 3 weeks old at the youngest before they can come into the UK & they all need full Pet Travel Scheme passports( minus the tapeworm treatment) & also travel under the TRACES rules, what would be their aim ?? most unwanted puppies & dogs in Ireland are collies & black dogs, they do NOT come from Puppy Farmers who concentrate on breeds(& mongrels)that are in fashion  collies & black dogs are never in fashion

I do hope you are right Tommee but as much as I want to believe you I am not convinced, could be they are bringing in pregnant bitches but there are those who insist they are bring in dogs and pups from Eire and other places in Europe.

Really do not understand how a charity -------------and then complain  about shortage of funds

'The Dogs Trust' is its modern name, it was originally called 'The Canine Defence League' & originated in 1891. DEFRA estimates the UK dog population at 8 million,Bristol uni thats an understimate & the population is around 10 million. So thats the potential client base for the dogs trust.

Most people don't understand how charities work in terms, their economics & especially the salary's of the top staff. In law, a charity works basically the same as industry. Before any surplus, money is spent on charitable work the executive and other high ranking members must pay themselves a salery, thats the law.

They pay themselves whatever they want but they are notorious for paying themselves huge amounts far in excess of what the general public probably expect & often equal to execs of the industry bosses, many charities play on the 'subject sympathetic' emotions of old or young members of society to carry out fundraising activities as a part of the charities income for free.

As far as I know & believe to be correct, the director & their cronies can pay themselves equally large bonus per annum, whats left must be spent on charitable work. A PM gets paid far less than n numerous charity higher ranks, I don't doubt that Clarissa Baldwins salery makes D Camerons look like a tip on comparison.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/10224104/30-charity-chiefs-paid-more-than-100000.html
.

...

> most unwanted puppies & dogs in Ireland are collies & black dogs, they do NOT come from Puppy Farmers who concentrate on breeds(& mongrels)that are in fashion  collies & black dogs are never in fashion

Really? Take a look round the websites of the Irish rescues who take in dogs dumped at the pounds over there.
One is at present seeking fosterers/adopters for a Beardie, a Golden Retriever, a Pom, a Scottie.... the list continues with Yorkies, Whippets, Border Terriers, Great Danes, several Huskies, an American Bulldog, a Cairn.... and that's just in the last 2 days. They even had a Labradoodle in October.
http://www.dogsindistress.org/home/

My rescue Malinois turned out to be an unclaimed stray, almost certainly brought over from Ireland as she had a newly-implanted Irish chip.

I very much doubt that any vet would give a rabies vaccine to a pregnant bitch in the latter stages of her pregnancy nowadays, so again the bitches would have to have full pet passports & I cannot see a Puppy farmer selling a known pregnant bitch-too much monetary loss.

I have yet to hear of a rescue bitch coming from Europe being in whelp, most are kept in private "pensions" until the puppies are born & weaned & the bitch spayed.

I am one of "those" who bring in puppies & adults from Eastern Europe & Ireland. None in whelp & 99% street or ex stray dogs. I would not want a rescue dog from the UK as I would never pass the homecheck & neutering rules. I am proud to have 2 failed Irish foster Collies, 2 successful Collie Xs now in furever homes & a Romanian puppy coming into foster on Saturday. Also around 80% of dogs in UK rescues are bull breeds or crosses or other breeds that are of no interest to me. My two Irish collies are learning to work alongside my other Collies. Eastern European street dogs & Irish collies(& black dogs)face horrid deaths, no vets needle & an overdose of drugs for them, shooting, beating, slaughtering, decapitation is the end they face as well as being starved beforehand.

Indeed.   And this has been going on for some time, especially from places like Hungary.   Relaxing the rules with Pet Passport

Its only the dogs trust saying they are trying to get them to >>UK<<. Why on earth would east europeans go to al that trouble to get them in UK, I have travelled, as have many people here, around europe just driving wherever, whenever I want I have never ever been stopped & checked for anything. Any east europeans from a EEC country can just drive across all the EEC borders they want & its been like that for decades. Its as simple & straight forward as driving around the 3 mainland countries of UK.

Its only here everyone, including us, has to have different documentation & checks for dogs.

So WHY on earth would east europeans go to all that trouble when they have no need to import to UK illegal dogs to UK?????? just give the place a miss!

Take into account that charities make their money from campaigns they start a campaign, orchestrate it & play to a fund giving audience, maybe they will pay themselves a good Xmas bonus for this campaign.

They do NOT have FULL litters of popular dogs for example whole litters of Pugs, Scottish Terriers, Yorkshire Terriers etc etc

> They do NOT have FULL litters of popular dogs for example whole litters of Pugs, Scottish Terriers, Yorkshire Terriers etc etc

But you did say "most unwanted puppies & dogs in Ireland are collies & black dogs" which clearly isn't the case....

That rescue is based in Dublin & there are obviously more Pedigree type dogs in cities than rural areas. Are they all ex strays ? or are they handed in dogs ?

>If the DT ARE importing whole litters from puppy farmers

The case I mentioned the parents were brought in and the bitch whelped in their care.

>I very much doubt that any vet would give a rabies vaccine to a pregnant bitch in the latter stages of her pregnancy nowadays, so again the bitches would have to have full pet passports & I cannot see a Puppy farmer selling a known pregnant bitch-too much monetary loss.<br />

Only recently have Pet Passport rules been enforced between UK and the Republic of Ireland, though if there are no Border controls between north and south there is nothing to stop dogs being brought in via Northern Ireland (part of the UK) so pet passport would not be needed from there to mainland UK.

FromTrip Advisor - Ireland: Crossing the Border

"Arriving from Northern Ireland: no passport controls are enforced. The border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland is open and barely discernable. Normally no passport is needed when driving or travelling by train or bus from one into the other. If you require a visa for either Ireland or the UK you must carry your passport with you, with the appropriate visa, when crossing the border. Citizens of countries requiring visas for travel to Northern Ireland should consult the UK Border Agency. If driving across the border, check that your vehicle insurance is valid and ensure that you have your driving licence with you."

My bolds

Merlot- This is a question to you (or Mamabass) more than anyone else because you gave The Dogs Trusts totaly absurd statement credibility!

HP
So, the dogs trust claims >"reveals criminal breeders"<

Which countries in the EEC make it a criminal offence to breed dogs Merlot ????? and which known/named individuals have recorded criminal convictions for 'criminal breeding' Merlot????

The dogs trust states - "with a lack of adequate enforcement and protocol by the relevant authorities"

What relevant authorities Merlot??? which EEC countries apart from UK have some kind of law banning citizens from trading dogs??????

The dogs trust states - "The number of declared puppies entering Great Britain between 2011 and 2013 from Lithuania has increased by 780% and risen 663% from Hungary****"

Merlot, the dogs trust statement above >clearly states< the imported dogs were declared when they came here!! What's illegal about declaring goods at customs Merlot?????

I could go on & on, line by line but the sliver Ive quoted is enough (for now), so, Merlot please answer those to start with, the way things look to me right now is that your just promoting yet another one of the dogs trusts non evidence based money raising ventures! maybe you should do a course in 'streetwisdom'.

Map link of EEC member countries, both Lithuania & Hungry are EEC members & can trade freely within the EEC!!!!

http://bit.ly/1ptZtGv

.

Dogs Trust:
Unsuspecting British shoppers will continue to buy puppies online which may have been brought into the country illegally; meaning the risk of unknowingly bringing a puppy from Eastern Europe with diseases and behavioural problems into the home is very real.

HP
The clear DT implication is that 'British shoppers' first pay for a pup online and the 'shopper' stays at their PC and sends a follow up email to DT telling the DT that they have just bought a pup online from another EEC country.

Based on the DTs' seeming perception of the UK populations mentality & intelligence levels I dont think UK 'shoppers' should be left without teams of carers & escorts in attendance, it seems to think the average UK 'shopper' has a mental age of around 14 months.
.

>The dogs trust states - "The number of declared puppies entering Great Britain between 2011 and 2013 from Lithuania has increased by 780% and risen 663% from Hungary****"
>Merlot, the dogs trust statement above >clearly states< the imported dogs were declared when they came here!! What's illegal about declaring goods at customs Merlot?????

The proven (evidence on camera) fact that many of these puppies have falsified paperwork makes them illegal, despite being declared.

I have no wish to start a discussion with you Hethspaw. I just posted the article for interest. You carry on and rant if you like. I have better things to do with my time.
At no point have I supported this, just pointed out the DT report.
Oh and for the record, You have a very high view of Joe Public, believe me I have spoken to many people wanting a pup who I would not give the time of day to, and yes they often eventually look overseas as good breeders in the UK would never sell to them. They are the dog owners I would not want for my pups.
Aileen

>You have a very high view of Joe Public, believe me I have spoken to many people wanting a pup who I would not give the time of day to, and yes they often eventually look overseas as good breeders in the UK would never sell to them. They are the dog owners I would not want for my pups.

Commercial breeders breed primarily to feed a market, problem is that a large proportion of the potential market will not make committed owners, do not have the facilities time and knowledge to priovide a decent home.
As such puppy producers and sellers feel no obligation for the future of their product, no interest beyond purchase, hence the rescue problem, and why breeders and breeding as a whole have such a bad press among the rescue fraternity.

As has been said those who run Rescue organisations are not without self interest either.

We need to stem the demand for poorly bred puppies.

Surely this cannot be purely by demonising breeders and offering the public the same badly bred puppies and dogs through rescue. 

Do not people deserve a well bred dog with typical traits for it's breed/type and with maximised chances of health by health screening and selection for temperament and good conformation of it's parents.

So WHY on earth would east europeans go to all that trouble when they have no need to import to UK illegal dogs to UK?????? just give the place a miss!

Having re-read this whole thread again I would like to add to Heathpaw that I think you have grasped the wrong bit of this. The whole idea behind DT conducting this survey (Call it what you will) is to highlight the fact that puppies are being brought into the UK illegally. Papers are falsified and the safety of all our loved pets is being endangered. The UK has a large customer base for puppy sellers. A lot is to do with the fact that on the whole many breeders of pedigree dogs in the UK have morals and will not sell to unsuitable buyers. This leaves a gap to be filled by those who care not one jot who they sell to as long as the money is in the bank. You only have to look at some of the Facebook pages to see that even well known breeders on the continent have pups they cannot sell and they advertise them all the time. Just in my breed there are pups being advertised daily. It is a case of demand and the demand in UK for pedigree pups is high. There is a much smaller customer base for pedigree dogs in places like Hungary and Lithuania. These dealers in puppies churn out the breeds people in the UK want  (not necessarily the breeds found easily in Eastern Europe but bred for on demand) I have absolutely no concern for those who import well bred pups who conform to the regulations and are fully inoculated. As you say its on open market and I would not suggest there is anything illegal about it. However when pups with forged papers are brought in then it becomes my concern. I do not wish to see my dogs walked in muzzles, never off leads and see rabies get a hold on the UK.
There is money to be made and by falsifying papers the profits are higher. Open your eyes and smell the coffee.. It is happening.
Aileen

>A lot is to do with the fact that on the whole many breeders of pedigree dogs in the UK have morals and will not sell to unsuitable buyers.

223,770 dogs were registered with the UK Kennel club in 2013.

Even the majority of those using the Kennel club to register puppies are not all reputable, caring and responsible for all the pups produced.  Yet it is estimated that there is a shortfall compared to demand of at least double that figure.

>This leaves a gap to be filled by those who care not one jot who they sell to as long as the money is in the bank.

>There is a much smaller customer base for pedigree dogs in places like Hungary and Lithuania.

Mainly because most people in the former Eastern Block (hence the huge economic migration) are not affluent enough for the luxury of a pet dog, often housing is inadequate and crowded (I know the situation certainly is like in Poland as most of my extended family live there.

There is not the welfare provision or employment, so people will do anything to supplement their low income.  with less sentimental attitude in the main to dogs and especially cats it's perfect for setting up puppy farms.  Most people in Poland have allotments not like ours but fully fenced and secure plots traditionally used for keeping poultry the odd pig and growing vegetables for own use or again to sell to boost income. 

Many people also rear fur animals on their plots, Coypu, Polecats and Silver fox.

Today there is a 14 week old pup being advertised on FB. Someone had posted that they would like one of this breed in the future and the breeders reply :-  why in the future.... (name of puppy) can be lovely Christmas gift now

The breeder is in Lithuania, the poster in another country... doesn't smack of much consideration being given to where this puppy may end up does it ?
This sort of thing is an every day occurrence. Pups are sold this way all the time and for the unscrupulous breeders a sale is a sale. When pups are on the ground and buyers are not available locally then if they can be sold it matters not where or how. I am not suggesting this pup will be imported illegally but the desperation for homes is evident.
Aileen

> That rescue is based in Dublin & there are obviously more Pedigree type dogs in cities than rural areas. Are they all ex strays ? or are they handed in dogs ?

They take in dogs from pounds all over Ireland. Some are hand-ins but most are strays, and most Irish pounds have a strict 7-day policy before PTS. Are you suggesting ownership of pedigree dogs is only limited to Dublin?

Very few of their dogs are strays most are hand ins(been advised this by an Irish friend heavily involved in stray rescue as opposed to hand ins)Hand ins can be PTS as soon as they have been signed over in Ireland, they do not have 7 days grace ! which is why this rescue deals with so many hand ins. Pedigree dogs are found much more in Irish cities & big towns, the Xbreeds Collie types are found as dumped dogs all over the more rural parts of Ireland

Leaving this very one sided "debate" clearly as someone who has active involvement with foreign rescue of dogs in danger of being slaughtered(& Eastern European street dogs are slaughtered & not humanely destroyed no matter what THAT TV program alleged to be the truth)I'm obviously in a minority of 1 amongst you Champdog "British dogs only" folks

>I'm obviously in a minority of 1 amongst you Champdog "British dogs only" folks

Charity begins at home.

By all means let people donate to help set up shelters neutering clinics whatever it takes for other countries to sort out their problem, but their problem it is.

Until we no longer have any rescue problem ourselves we should not be importing problems from elsewhere while demonising those who wish have and to breed dogs with care for health temperament, and reared well and placed in the best possible homes that they and others can enjoy.

Instead the general public is guilt tripped into accepting the results of careless haphazard and purely commercial breeding that end up filtering into rescue, largely due to poor care in their homing.

Breeders are constantly being told that they are guilty of adding to the rescue problem and taking away homes from dogs in need, so the best breeders pare down their breeding to the minimum to keep their lines going.

So the majority of the canine population is haphazardly bred.  Only a third of dogs are registered with the Kennel club, and only some of those by really caring breeders.  Do not the dogs and the public deserve better???

>I'm obviously in a minority of 1 amongst you Champdog "British dogs only" folks

No, you're not.
I have been involved a little with Irish rescue in the past - my main gripe is/was that it's not always made clear where the dog in rescue has come from. That seems to have changed in the last 4 years though. The first and only indication I had that my own rescue, from a dogs' home in the UK, had originated from Ireland was when the paperwork for her irish chip came through a month or so after adoption.

I can't say if knowing she was from Ireland would have changed my mind about taking her on, probably not.
But I'd have liked to know.