Can someone confirm that if the breeder transfers the bitch back into Doglover86's name they can re-apply the breeding endorsement?

No they can't. Unless the dog lives with them at the time, the breeder CANNOT endorse a dog they have bred.

The KC have worded it 'physical possession', which any good lawyer can twist and turn to mean so much more than the fact that you are her main carer as in many inst. there are many reasons for homing a bitch/dog elsewhere.


That's neither here nor there. The KC WILL lift endorsements if they were placed by the breeder at a time when the dog was not living with them.

Unfortunately, there are many new owners who do not transfer ownership of their pups, even though we the breeders sign the paperwork, I think most of us who breed have a few of our pups still registered in our names, therefore this is why it is written so........ a dam must be somehow still connected with the breeder (not necessarily living with us) for us to still register endorsement, that is more than fair.

Actual ownership and KC registered ownership are different things re: the law as people lose paperwork, sell dogs on etc... which is why it is not proof of ownership....... but that is a different thing to what is going on here, it is nothing to do with ownership, just with breeding rights, showing rights, working rights anything KC related, totally different, the foundation breeder is not in a dispute of ownership, just pup and dam rights. :-)

If the breeder who placed the endorsement has never even seen the puppies, how could the purchasers of the puppies have had their registration documents ? 

If the ownership of the bitch was transferred (back?) into the name of the original breeder then any paperwork would have been sent to the registered owner of the bitch, regardless of where the bitch and puppies actually were.  As far as the KC is concerned - they don't have people available to go round and check!   Having been sent the litter application paperwork (for the registration of litter and then individual puppies) that original breeder could well have done all the paperwork WITHOUT having the bitch/puppies!!!  But it's a very odd situation in terms of how the purchasers of the puppies could have been given/sent the individual registration papers as the original breeder wouldn't, presumably? know where the puppies had gone????????

Something is very off here.   My best advice would be, after talking to the Kennel Club Registration Department about ALL of this is to get your bitch spayed asap - and walk away from this whole situation - sadder and wiser!!   If you spay her that will shut down any ideas this breeder might still have about extracting more money from you via any further litters the bitch might have!!

Can someone confirm that if the breeder transfers the bitch back into Doglover86's name they can re-apply the breeding endorsement?

No they can't. Unless the dog lives with them at the time, the breeder CANNOT endorse a dog they have bred.

This is correct.   But again, regardless of the situation re future litters/endorsements, get the bitch spayed.   That would bring all this to an end.

Unfortunately, there are many new owners who do not transfer ownership of their pups, even though we the breeders sign the paperwork, I think most of us who breed have a few of our pups still registered in our names, therefore this is why it is written so........ a dam must be somehow still connected with the breeder (not necessarily living with us) for us to still register endorsement, that is more than fair.

Sorry Carrington but that is totally incorrect, and it did happen to people in my breed that endorsements were rejected by the KC. If the puppy/dog is NOT living with the breeder still, an endorsement CANNOT be placed. It happened to people I know that they did not get round to registering pups until after they had been sold (I can't remember why now, but think it was due to the fact the sire was abroad and various paperwork was delayed), and so the KC told them the endorsements they had tried to put on could not be applied. The entire litter had to be not endorsed. If you do not believe me, I can put you in touch with the breeders in question who will confirm this is exactly what happened.

I don't disbelieve you Goldmali......... Unfortunate and quite mean really wasn't it? That they wouldn't bend, as they will do it with registering a litter, but at the time of them registering endorsements the pups were sold, they were trying to register pups that did not belong to them, they had passed hands. Their computer probably said No!  

I think it is a really good heads up though Goldmali as to what can happen, endorsements can't be done once leaving the dam.

Thinking about it.....I actually do not understand what our OP is trying to achieve,

Doglover89 - why are you trying and hoping to gather information to have the endorsements made defunct anyway, you cannot register them yourself as you are not the registered KC owner. Why want to leave pups unprotected. All you need to do is let your pups owners know who they need to contact if not to potentially be just pet dogs, but surely they already know this?......the KC transfer papers did not have your name and address on them? Did they not already query that you are not involved with these pups other than selling them from your home?

I would certainly have the bitch spayed...........

Not really sure what you are trying to achieve, this is all very strange..............

this is totally unethical and if was not part of the original contract re endorsements I'd contact the Kennel club.

Bit late now as you already agreed to the additional terms with this litter, and they may see it as a private issue.

Actually Goldmali, before I dash out.......... on reflection that does make perfect sense....... the KC were not being jobsworths, of course a breeder cannot do an endorsement once the pups have left the dam, no matter the reason, they may not have told the owner and then put them on afterwards, in the case with your colleague it is perfectly although unfortunate the correct thing to do.

Doglover86, did the litter have endorsements put on their registration? If so, who placed them, and when?

> Doglover89 - why are you trying and hoping to gather information to have the endorsements made defunct anyway, you cannot register them yourself as you are not the registered KC owner. Why want to leave pups unprotected. All you need to do is let your pups owners know who they need to contact if not to potentially be just pet dogs, but surely they already know this?......the KC transfer papers did not have your name and address on them? Did they not already query that you are not involved with these pups other than selling them from your home?

Well,  if the following is really true,,

Can someone confirm that if the breeder transfers the bitch back into Doglover86's name they can re-apply the breeding endorsement?

No they can't. Unless the dog lives with them at the time, the breeder CANNOT endorse a dog they have bred

Then the pups aren't protected anyway,  as the endorsement hasn't been done whilst the pups are living with the 'breeder'.  

As has been said before,  the KC will not uphold endorsements unless they are applied whilst the dog is living with the breeder,  and the new owners sign a document saying they understand and agree,  presumably countersigned by the breeder too.  

In this case the document would not have been signed by the 'breeder',  but by the person the dog is living with who has no authority or jurisdiction to give them the document.  Therefore,  by KC rules,  the document is worthless.

This is such a mess,  and I'm sure the KC and whatever breed clubs should know about this. 

I think that is what the poster is refereeing to, that the endorsements place on the litter by the registered breeder did not have the pups in their possession, the poster bed and reared them, so their endorsements are not placed correc5tly as at no time did the 'registered' breeder have physical possession of them.

Of course the kennel club would not be aware of this.

This is of no help to the poster though re their bitch, unless they kept a pup, and it is now in their name, they could challenge the endorsements on the pup..

Just wondering if the OP has kept a puppy and wants to breed on from it or whether she is looking to have a second litter with the bitch in future, so in which case she needs the bitch back into her name without spaying.  Nothing then the breeder can do, but I too would be contacting the KC about this to check and explAin everything.

Sorry Doglover86 but why not just contact The Kennel Club and ask for their take on the matter.

Actually Goldmali, before I dash out.......... on reflection that does make perfect sense....... the KC were not being jobsworths, of course a breeder cannot do an endorsement once the pups have left the dam, no matter the reason, they may not have told the owner and then put them on afterwards, in the case with your colleague it is perfectly although unfortunate the correct thing to do.

Yes indeed. If it wasn't the case that you had to still have the pups/dog living with you, breeders could then place an endorsement on a dog just out of spite. Sure the KC would lift it if there was no signed agreement, but it would lead to unnecessary hassle for sure. It was lesson learned for my friends and they made sure to spread the word -always, always make sure to register pups BEFORE they have been sold.

Hi the reason for my question is yes I agreed to these terms and am to suffer the consequences the buyers off the litter have signed exactly the same contract as me and think there is a possiblity off breeding as the contracts state that if criteria is met then endorsements will be lifted.which by my experience with the breeder is untrue.the dog was mated at my home,whelped, reared,I was sent registration documents through post by breeder with endorsements already on them.

My original question was can the bitch be signed back over.which I thank you for pointing out where I have gone wrong.and realise there is probably no possiblity.

My second question was regarding the authenticity off the endorsements with the rules stating that the dogs have to be in the phyischal possesion off the owner to place endorsements.

My view is if somebody agrees to terms off endorsements then that is fine.but the breeder is either on a money making scheme or providing false hope to up the sale count but misleading people into the hope that they can breed there pet hoping they choose not to.

i have also signed 2 off the dogs into my own name as iam co owning one with a family member and have one still for sale.so yes there is a possiblty to carrying on the progency.which is what I bought the bitch for originally wich is now impossible to do with her.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">My view is if somebody agrees to terms off endorsements then that is fine.but the breeder is either on a money making scheme or providing false hope to up the sale count but misleading people into the hope that they can breed there pet hoping they choose not to.

Just one question.
I have heard of some breeders that offer reduced purchase price in exchange for a scheme where the first litter is signed over to the breeder. Not saying it's right, not that I agree with it, but was your original purchase along these lines, with a contract which spelled it out?

I feel there really is no-one here who can really advise - it needs to be run past the KC, AND a dedicated solicitor like Trevor Cooper. The whole thing gives me a bad feeling, as I'm sure it does to many others. But someone like Trevor is the right person to straighten it out :)

> i have also signed 2 off the dogs into my own name as iam co owning one with a family member and have one still for sale

Didn't you say earlier they had also been endorsed?

>My original question was can the bitch be signed back over

The registration of the bitch can be transferred back to you in the same way as when you originally bought her, with the current registered owner signing the back of the registration form and you applying for change of ownership.  Dogs can be transferred to new ownership at any time.

If they put the endorsement back on before doing this you could challenge that as she would not have been in their possession at the time.

They would know this or should realise, so as you say it sounds like they have no intention of transferring her back into your name.

> >If they put the endorsement back on before doing this you could challenge that as she would not have been in their possession at the time.

That's the crux isn't it? How can the OP prove the bitch [and litter] was never living with the breeder?

>I have heard of some breeders that offer reduced purchase price in exchange for a scheme where the first litter is signed over to the breeder.

That is called selling on breeding terms, and in that case the bitch doesn't need to be transferred into the breeders name, as a Loan of bitch agreement can be lodged with the kennel club that breeding rights for x period are to a different person than the registered owner.

Yes the registration paper work arrived signed but left empty for buyers details with endorsements in place. My question is are these endorsments on the litter authentic with the dam being with me and the puppies when the endorsements was placed.

>That's the crux isn't it? How can the OP prove the bitch [and litter] was never living with the breeder?

Statements from the pups new owners (I assume the registered owner may not even know who they are) and possibly the physical breeders vet would support that the pups came from the actual physical breeders property not the registered breeders.

Dams Original terms off breeding endorsemts was for suitable hip score and elbows and health test and suitable stud.exactly the same contract the purchasers have signed

The vets have visited me on several occasions as well as purchasers and viewers.dam is under my neme at vet also.

The vets have visited me on several occasions as well as purchasers and viewers.dam is under my neme at vet also.

The vets have visited me on several occasions as well as purchasers and viewers.dam is under my neme at vet also.

And yes the breeder has only a record off name from the contracts that they have signed and co signed with the breeder who the litter is not in there registration either and a friend off there's.thats what else makes me think that the terms to place an endorsement have not been met.they have no knowledge of where the dogs are what the people are like who have bought them.obviusly I have re-homed them responsibly.i was led to belief the endorsement was to protect the breed

> they have no knowledge of where the dogs are what the people are like who have bought them.obviusly I have re-homed them responsibly.

It just gets worse - "remote control" springs to mind.... This breeder demanded all that, took money, had no part in raising the litter or helped with homing them.... but still has the reins in their hand? That's just not right.

Yes I agree with what you said regarding the purchaser challenge it if they meet the criteria.i just don't want the same to happen to other people because that would make me just as bad. .
Dams Original terms off breeding endorsemts was for suitable hip score and elbows and health test and suitable stud. exactly the same contract the purchasers have signed

But the owners of your litter don't have to have the same happen to them as has happened to you if their contracts stats what you have said above. You didn't have to have this happen to you either, when u called your breeder up and they said u had to put your bitch into there name or they wont lift them you could and should have said no and contacted the KC to inform them about your breeder refusing to honour the contract and lift the endorsements even though you followed the contract conditions.
The KC then may have lifted your girls endorsements so you could have bred and registered the litter yourself with out your breeder. This is all your puppy buyers should have to do before they breed their one.

So I would check this with the KC when you speak to them tomorrow and if they would side with the puppy buyers If they meet the contract they signed then I would not challenge the endorsements even though they were put on wrongly buy the registered owner, as its better they have them if the kc will side with the owners if they meet the contract than to not have them and risk them being bred with out health testing.

Looks like you will have to either give up on breeding from your current girl or pay the breeder when you want to breed her next time if the kc cant put her back in your name.

Yes it's looking that way.i was led a long tbh I was told that once you lift an endorsement it can't be placed back on.the breeder said sign the dog back into my name and for a percentage I will register the litter for you and that way you can't breed other dogs to the bitch other than the proposed.there was no mention off a percentage off every litter.and when I mentioned I would rather not do it again I was told eithe spayed or she stays in breeders  my name.

>I was told that once you lift an endorsement it can't be placed back on

That is correct in as much as the original person cannot put the endorsement back on if the bitch is no longer in their physical possession.

For example I endorse al my puppies including my own as of course I don't know at time of registration which I am keeping, and only lift just before I expect to breed from her, after health testing.

Should I then decide as some breeders do (I have never done so) to part with her into other ownership, I could put the endorsement back on.

Also you could buy in an unendorsed puppy, decide it wasn't good enough for show or breedigna dn re-home it a few months later, and you could place the endorsements on.

they are not just for the breeder.

For example a friend had a bitch from me, who she bred a litter from after I lifted the endorsements.

Unfortunately this young bitch and her 11 year old bitch were fighting and n a normal home it became far to stressful for everyone concerned and the dogs to have the two in the same household.

The bitch ahs been re-homed and the owner endorsed her before this.  Of course she could simply have spayed her, but the bitch was out of a litter where the mother was taken abroad to be mated and new bloodlines are needed within the breed. 

It may be that the new owner may be persuaded to show and or breed, or perhaps the relinquishing owner may have her back for a second litter on Loan of bitch agreement.  We thought it best to leave all options open with the breed having such low registrations at the moment (only 39 registrations for the first 9 months of this year).

But if they knew that an endorsement can not be placed on the bitch then surely the breeder must know that the litters endorsment will not stand as they are not in there phyischal possesion either.so why make me sign her over in the first place.its just dishonesty

>Yes the registration paper work arrived signed but left empty for buyers details with endorsements in place. My question is are these endorsments on the litter authentic with the dam being with me and the puppies when the endorsements was placed.

Did you get the new owners to sign an contract to say they have understood the endorsements?  If not (and it would have had to been in the name of the KC registered owner and also signed by them) then the kennel club will lift the endorsements if asked to by the new owners.

The purchasers have signed contracts with the breeder but the bitch isn't in there  name its in a friend or family members name.so what good is the breeder signing it if technicallly speak he doesn't have a say with regards to kc matters.

Iv just spoke to the kc and they have confirmed for me that.to place an endorsement on a do the dog has to be in the registered owners phyischal possesion to endorse a dog.

Phyischal possesion meaning that the dog lives in your home or kennel.

They also confirmed to me that the way that these endorsememts have been used is not what they are designed for and would like me to write everything down and email it to the kennel club for review.

They also confirmed to me that the way that these endorsememts have been used is not what they are designed for and would like me to write everything down and email it to the kennel club for review.

Good! Write it all down and send to the KC and at the very least the endorsements should get sorted out.

Yes they said 100 percent that the endorsements do not comply with the regs to place it so is void.and is also a possibility off getting ownership back :)

That's great, and good for the KC.  Although they are intended for good, this is not the first time I have heard of endorsements being abused by breeders for their financial gain and to have a hold on the new owners. 

I'd also forward any emails or anything in writing or has this all been done verbally?

I'd also forward any emails or anything in writing or has this all been done verbally?

Absolutely!

If you have emails, make sure you send them to the KC along with your letter.

And any contact with the breeder in future, keep it in writing.   It's amazing how effective a paper trail can be ;-)

If this breeder calls, all you need to say is you're too busy to speak on the phone and to email you, or write a letter ;-)

All verbally I'm afraid.i think they knew what they was doing the whole time because as people have said I could of had a loan off bitch agreement or a contract that clearly stated that the bitch is for pet purposes and not breeding etc.

if I forward the details it could get worse and I may possibly end up In a worse situation than iam now i might never get her back in my name.

I'm going to phone the breeder and explain to them that I have talked to the kennel club and explain the whole situation begining to end.and am thinking off going down the kennel club route to sort this out or offer an opportunity for us to sort it out amicably first.if the breeder was worried about what stud dog I use then fair enough i would understand.Im having to pay a considerably amount to breed my own dog

In the breeders opinion the bitch must off met the original breeding requirements on the contract or they wouldn't want to register the litter and let me continue to do so.

How can it make things worse than they already are but not forwarding everything to the KC?
I would not contact the breeder and ESP not by phone at this time.
Let the KC do their work and sort it out.

I really think if you give this breeder the heads up they will have time to come up with something else as an excuse/reason for what they have done.

Keep everything in a paper trail and that includes anything relating directly with this breeder, phone calls in afraid are a no no in this situation if you want it resolved.

The bitch is in my possesion so an endorsement placed back on her is not an option to solve the dispute.

This breeder has already said to sign her over you have to do x y z, a phone call again won't rectify this and if there is a chance the KC can sort this into your favour then let them.

If you really really feel you need to contact the breeder do it via email only so you have a record of her replies

Have you also spoken the owner of the stud dog re any of this? I'm sure they would be interested to know if not already aware

Yes there is nothing the stud dog owner is upto date with the situation but as it is the dam owner who registers papers its out off there hands.and I don't want to drag them into it as they have had no wrong part in this

Not drag them into it but surely they would be horrified to learn that puppies sired by their boy actually don't have legitimate endorsements on them

The purchasers have agreed to re endorse the dogs if the endorsements when they are lifted by the kc.iv explained the need for hip scores and elbow scores and what it requires to breed dogs and have said they are happy to own te dog as a pet.if they choose at a later to change there mind I can only hope and trust there word that they do the right thing.even if the puppies were breed at the breeders home it would be the same situation as now because after 12 months when hip scores etc would off been done they still could off applied for the endorsements to be lifted as they had met the requirements off the contract.

The purchasers have agreed to re endorse the dogs if the endorsements when they are lifted by the kc.

Not sure if I am missing something, but that does not make sense to me. The owners would have to place the endorsements themselves as only the person who has possession of the dog can endorse, and therefore they can also lift the endorsements at any time they wish. Only the person who places the endorsement can lift it.