hi I bought a dog several years ago and signed a contract to agree to terms off a progency endorsement placed on the dog.for eg suitable hip scores etc. I kept to the terms and met the criteria and phoned my breeder back up and updated the breeder with the relevant info.i was then told the only way the progency off my litter would be registered is if I signed over ownership over to the breeder off my dog and for a percentage off the litter.even though these were not the original times I agreed to the terms.the litter has been born and been rehomed.i have paid the percentage off the litter to the breeder.but iam unhappy that the dogs are no longer registered in my name in the kennel club even though iam the legal owner off the dog.my question is is there anything I can do about this as I kept to the terms off the original  endorsement contract as they was lifted all be it not under my name as the owner.

Difficult one, is have a chat to Trevor cooper from dog law, but don't think so as you agreed to it.
Get the bitch back into your name now that the pups have gone.

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/t-and-c/tran.aspx?ReturnUrl=/public/transfer/Default.aspx

Scroll down to Endorsements - 12 for information about what endorsements are available etc.

I'm sorry, but I really can't understand exactly what's gone on here other than, quite rightly, you were asked to sign an agreement to a non-breeding (?other) endorsement the breeder placed on the puppy you bought at the time of purchase?   This is required by the KC if an endorsement(s) is placed on the puppy.    It sounds as if this breeder put further restrictions on this puppy - when later on you wanted the non-breeding endorsement lifted so you could breed your bitch?   Hip/elbow scoring for eg.   And at that time, she wanted YOUR bitch transferred into her name and she wanted a percentage (sale proceeds?) of the litter?   That in my opinion, should ALL have been made clear to you at time of sale.   It can happen that a breeder wants to do this, but in my opinion, unless the new purchaser is aware of this further restriction either at the time of the purchase OR when the original endorsement is lifted by the breeder, this is at best, unethical.   No way would I have agreed to this!!!   You do all the work and she walks off with the proceeds of the sale of the puppies from this bitch - nice one!

At the very least, she MUST transfer the ownership of your bitch back into your name.   Much as all this (registration) is only 'paperwork' - I'd lay odds if this went to Court, unless she took the bitch back, did the mating, whelping, rearing of the litter etc., (did she?) any judge would look on this as your ownership of the bitch, legally, still stands.

If this litter has been registered with her affix (kennel name) with the Kennel Club and with her as the now registered owner of the dam, I doubt there's much you can do about this now, as far as the litter registration/breeder of the puppies is concerned.  

ps    There's NO WAY I'd have paid over any money to her, if she moved the goalposts on you.   I'd have let her take you to Court for that!!!

I bought the bitch with endorsements ie.dog had to be off a suitable age and have good hip scores etc for the restriction to be lifted. I did all this.and the breeder then said the bitch has to go back in the breeders name for the endorsement to be lifted.and if I continue to breed I have to leave in breeders ownership.as well as a percentage off each litter.if I want the dog back in my ownership then I have to have the dog spaded. I still legally own the dog as I have only transferred ownership in the kennel club and not In the real world so to speak.i have paid and reared all the litter myself.the litter has a endorsement on them too.but my understanding is that an endorsement can only be placed if they are the registered owner off the dog which they now are in the kennel club and that they was in that persons physical possesion when it was placed.which they wasn't.they was born and raised in my own home and sold by myself.

I feel like something underhand is happening as I am not been told I can't.but that I can only  if I continue with the agreement.which I'm not to happy with.if I didn't agree in the first place I would off had 8 dogs that I could not kc register. I stuck to all the original terms off the endorsement to have this problem.i don't feel comfortable with this agreement.

I bought the pet with endorsements in place but was told it would be lifted if the dog met a certain criteria wich it did to be told I had to hNd over ownership for the endorsement to be lifted wich was not the original Agreement I signed to when I first bought my pet

The dog is also legally speaking still mine as a kc ownership is not classed as legal ownership.juSt like a
Car may not be owned  by its  registered keeper.

Did you sign a contract informing you of the endorsements and did the contract identify the stipulations as to when the endorsement would be listed?
Though you say the dog is legally yours, unless you get this sorted you will never be able to register any future progeny in your name

The time to get endorsements lifted is after the health testing has been done and before mating the bitch and rearing the subsequent litter. At what stage did you ask the breeder to lift the endorsements?

All the "moving the goalposts" could have been sorted before any puppies arrived.

Yes I signed an original contract to say I agreee to the endorsement. And I phoned when the health test and relevent info was available.the breeder is happy for me to breed as long as I pay money.which is not what the original contract stated.will the progency endorsement on the litter still stand.as under the kennel club regulations the puppies have to be in ownership by the person who places them which they was And they have to be in that persons phyischal possesion which they are not.they have never seen the litter.

If the bitch was transferred back into the name of the breeder then technically SHE is the breeder of this litter and as such would be the ONLY person to be able to register them with the Kennel Club

Such a darned mess!!   If I were you, at the very least I'd be phoning the Kennel Club to take their advice - don't hold your breath however.

If the breeder of your bitch, in whose name your bitch now is, has all the registration paperwork now for the puppies, then as far as the KC is concerned, these puppies were bred by that person, regardless of whether she SAW the litter.   And that's just crazy stuff too - where did your bitch WHELP these puppies?

As far as I can see, what's most urgent at this point is you get YOUR bitch transferred back into your name, with the KC.   I'm afraid as far as the litter is concerned, this may well be something you have to put down as a lesson learned.   Not to be repeated!   For interest, did this breeder SEE your bitch before you went ahead with the mating, to see whether she was good enough to have the endorsement lifted?

At best, I'd suggest this original breeder is unethical, given I'm not seeing her side of all this!!   With respect.  Perhaps you didn't understand quite what you were getting into.    For me - all our immature puppies were sold with endorsements (particularly the not for breeding one) I'd ONLY lift that if the dog in question had matured as hoped, in my opinion with no other string attached - much as I'd have liked to have a say in the stud dog used!! Never happened with mine apart from two I sold, unendorsed (big mistake) to a fellow breeder.  The worst part of that mistake was she sold the two to Holland, despite my having a take-back stud agreement on the male which I wasn't able to have.   'Luckily' I kept his litter brother and did the mating I'd planned, back to their aunt, to him - much as the other brother would have suited her better.  As for the bitch - she was bred 5 TIMES in Holland.   Small litters, but still 5 pregnancies.   I wept.

ps   It would help understand what you are writing if you used 'of' instead of 'off'!!     Also, I hate it that further money has changed hands in all of this?   THAT tells me a lot about this breeder.

The dog is also legally speaking still mine as a kc ownership is not classed as legal ownership.juSt like a
Car may not be owned  by its  registered keeper.

Yes, to a point (apart from the fact that cars cannot be bred!!!).   KC registration is 'only' paperwork in terms of who owns what BUT the situation here has changed from a straight buy to BREEDING.   And in that, registration matters.  As you've discovered.

I would just say that for the sake of the paperwork, some breeders do transfer 'ownership' with the KC to enable the progeny of an animal to carry their affix (kennel name).   But again you should have been made aware of all this at the outset.   If you weren't, then this is, I'd suggest, and again without hearing both sides of this story, a very dodgy situation.   Up to you how you proceed with all of this - but again, I'd be talking to the Kennel Club and perhaps a lawyer if you can't sort all this out without going down that road.

Sorry I'm really bad with english and struggle.the breeder has never seen the bitch.the litter was whelped by myself at my own home.am I not correct in saying that the puppies have to be in a persons phyischal possesion as well as ownership to place an endorsment.they are happy for me to bred as long as I pay and tbh that just doesn't seem ethical and fair.

I have made all the purchasers off the puppies sign contracts  to confirm they understand the endorsements.i feel im being unfair because if they come back in 2 years with hip scores and a good healthy example off the breed.that same will happen if they want to breed.i feel a responsibility still as a breeder even though I'm not the registered owner.

I fully understood the terms off the endorsement which were hip scores health test and the use off a desirable stud dog.i followed all rules for the endorsement to be lifted to be told I have to sign over ownership.

>am I not correct in saying that the puppies have to be in a persons phyischal possesion as well as ownership to place an endorsment

Yes, you are correct. The KC says "12. Endorsements

    General. The registered owner(s) of a dog may, whilst the dog is still in his / her physical possession, apply to place one or more endorsements on a dog's record and to have the registration certificate annotated accordingly. The endorsements, which may be placed as follows: -
        R - Progeny not eligible for Registration
        X - Not eligible for the issue of an Export Pedigree"

I'll ask again. At what stage did you ask the breeder to lift the endorsements?

Hi sorry so many things to say I forgot to state.before mating.

> Hi sorry so many things to say I forgot to state.before mating.

So if the endorsement was lifted before the bitch was mated and the "new" terms agreed to, why did you agree to the new terms and not appeal to the KC before the bitch was mated? I don't understand why you went ahead with everything if you weren't happy with the situation? I don't agree with what the breeder has done but if you agreed to the terms I don't see that the KC will do anything.

I had 8 puppies off high quality bloodlines and didnt want to sell without kc papers.and felt I had no other option except to sell without papers.i was asked for a percentage off the litter but that has now changed to a percentage off any litter here after.as you say I shouldn't off signed and agreed.also the dogs are not registered in the breeders name name and in a family members or friends name.the purchases off the puppies have signed a contract co signed with the breeders signature also but the dogs aren't in the breeders name.this doesn't make any sense to me?

I felt I had no option tbh except to sell without kc papers which would off been a shame.i suppose it is my own fault but.just feels unfair that I'm being told I can breed but can't have kc ownership and if I do have kc ownership the dog will be spayed making her useless for breeding.even though I will still love her and care for her as my pet

I don't understand.

If the breeder who placed the endorsement has never even seen the puppies, how could the purchasers of the puppies have had their registration documents ?   and if she is so worried about the pups, why wasn't she involved in the vetting of the purchasers of the pups?

If you are the seller of the pups, surely you should be giving out the registration documents?

I also don't understand why this breeder is saying that all of the pups you breed belong to her - as in, she gets a percentage of any money you get from breeding?  If she has had no input to the litter apart from lifting the endorsements and approving a stud dog, why is she then due a percentage of the money?   did she pay any of the costs?

Am I right in thinking you also have written that this breeder wants control of any breeding from the pups you have bred as well?  And a percentage of that money too?

Personally, I would get in touch with the kennel club as this sounds very dodgy and unethical.

I would also spey the bitch and consider it a lesson learned.  Unless it is a very rare breed and on the endagered list, there will be other litters bred with just as good lines ;-)

Do you show the bitch?   One of the best ways to avoid this kind of thing is to be involved in the breed and get to know all the different breeders.  that way, you would find someone who would mentor you in your breeding journey.

I would just say that for the sake of the paperwork, some breeders do transfer 'ownership' with the KC to enable the progeny of an animal to carry their affix (kennel name).

There is absolutely no need for this as you just use loan of bitch. You pay a fee for another person to be registered as the breeder of any pups born within a specified period (minimum 6 months) and after that period has lapsed, the bitch is automatically going back into the ownership of the original owner. Works out cheaper as well, a one off £20 fee rather than two £15 transfers.

I'd seriously think of reporting this breeder to the breed club. What a money making scheme!

> I'd seriously think of reporting this breeder to the breed club. What a money making scheme!

Even so, I don't see how the KC or breed club can do anything as the OP agreed to the terms and went ahead and mated the bitch knowing the terms? The time to get this whole sorry mess sorted was BEFORE any mating took place.

I'm going to phone the kennel club on Monday.but it has been already stated that I signed over ownership so from a kennel club point off view I think they will just tell me it's my own fault.but as for the endorsements on the litter I think that will be a different matter.i have paid all cost and done all off the work yes.

You live and you learn I suppose.it just upset me that the motivate for the actions ended up being for financial gain when I thought it was to protect the breed.

No I am certain the KC could not do anything but a breed club is different, especially as they don't have to accept people as members, they can refuse for whatever reason -if nothing else they could have a quiet word with this person. If they are a breed club member then effectively they are making the club look bad.

The thing is it is all done and dusted....... nothing illegal happened...... if you were not happy with things you could have stopped this at anytime, the KC may well have stepped in prior to mating or even prior to the actual whelping as you passed all terms of the original contract, but now.....what do you really want the KC to do?  They cannot force the breeder to now transfer 'ownership' you transfered of your own free will for breeding purposes.

The foundation breeder has told you she will transfer to you again if your bitch is spayed, but obviously is taking extreme (I agree they are extreme) measures to protect her line, the bitch and all subsequent pups and pups of pups....... it could just all be a money making scheme to use on new breeders who know no better...... or it could be someone very protective and wishing to be involved in every line advancement. 

Whatever the reasoning...... you've agreed to it, it is done....

With regards to the endorsments on the puppies do you thin I this is a different matter with the dogs not being in the physical possesion off the breeder and also because contracts was signed between the breeder and the purchaser wich is not the same person whos name the ownership is with.basically they have a contract with an OP and not the registered owner.

So from read your posts you brought you girl and signed the contract about her being endorsed and it was stated that the breeder would lift apon suitable health test results and that they approved of your stud choice. Then once you had the testing done you contact them to lift the endorsement and the breeder then said they would only lift it if you signed her over to there name and gave them some of the money from the sale of the pup. Which you then agreed to so you could mate and register the litter and now she won't sign her back over to you unless you spay her and if you want to breed her again while still in her name you have to again pay her money.

As the breeder changed there terms from what was stated on the contract you signed you could have contacted the kennel club and they have the option to side with you and lift the endorsement for you as u had met the conditions you signed to.
The breeder is being unreasonable and sounds like they are just in it for the money. As if it was just about protecting there lines they wouldn't need a take of the money from the litters.

Defernatly call the KC they may lift the endorsements on your pups as your breeder as you stated the litter was not physically in there possession at the time they put the endorsements on, however if they do this will mean that any of those pups could then be bred and litter registered with out health testing.
What did the contract your puppy buyers signed say about lifting endorsements? It it only said about the health testing and no mention of going back into the 'breeders' name your puppy buyers can contact the KC when they meet the requirements they singed to and see if the KC will lift them if the breeder refuses like they did with u.
They may be able to advise you on if you can get your girl back into you name with out having to spay her as the breeder wants, however there would be nothing stopping the breeder putting the endorcments back on her before she goes back into your name.

Hi I undrstand that the endorsements will be lifted to the new owners.but I feel that would be better than being led a long.the contract should clearly state no breeding if it's not a possibility in their name or as you said with the additional info that I have found out.

The rules also state that the contracts for the litter have to be in ownership, phyischal possesion,and contract between breeder and buyer.there is contracts but they are between the breeder off my dog and the purchasers.the dogs registered owner with the kennel club is not in the name off my dogs breeder but in another persons name.does this also not count?

With regards to the endorsments on the puppies do you thin I this is a different matter with the dogs not being in the physical possesion off the breeder and also because contracts was signed between the breeder and the purchaser wich is not the same person whos name the ownership is with.basically they have a contract with an OP and not the registered owner.

Physical and legal possession of a dog or bitch is nothing to do with the registering by the KC, who a dog lives with, who feeds it or pays its bills is nothing to do with the KC either, all they go by is what is on the paperwork.

If the dam is registered in the foundation breeders name (now)......... then all paperwork belongs to the foundation breeder, the pups endorsements will need to be in her name also, as far as all paperwork is concerned it all belongs and needs to go through the person named as the 'registered' owner.

Doglover86......... if you payed for the endorsements of the pups, then try to claim that back from the foundation breeder, that is just plain silly, you were also so very silly to give her half the money, unheard of........ but you did it, wish you had come on here first, we'd have all steered you down a different path......... but it is all too late, it is not illegal or against any rulings, it is very cheeky and she got away with it........

You have no say in these pups at all now......... sorry, on legal paperwork you are out of the equation completely.

What does the contract say about these puppies endorsements?

I'd expect the contract to be done by the person who put the endorsements on the pup as its them who can lift them so they need proof they the new owners are aware of them and what the conditions if any to have them lifted. If they don't want the KC to lift for the puppy buyer against there will if they have not met the conditions.

If you looking in the rules and regs tho it clearly states that endorsements can only be  placed by the registered owner off the dog if it is in their phyischal possesion also and also states that it would side with the buyer in the event that their is no contractual evidence between the owner and the purchaser then the endorsement would be void. Please can you check the regulations and confirm that I am wrong if I am please.

And also the contracts are not between wrote out between the owner and the buyer it is between an other person and the purchaser.

Yes you rightly said and backed up by Jeangenie posting the KC's rule, they should not have been able to put endorsements on your litter in the first place as the pups were not in there physical possession, but is it not better to inform the puppy owners that they can challenge them if they meet the conditions in the contract rather than have the whole litter unendorsed and at risk of being used unhealth tested.

.the dogs registered owner with the kennel club is not in the name off my dogs breeder but in another persons name.does this also not count?

Just noticed this........ what on earth have you allowed to go on here.

So, it is not your foundation breeder who is even named as your bitches registered owner? It is someone else? She must have been slipping you a gallon of wine for you to sign such a thing, sorry but the whole thing is just plain bonkers........ yes, you've been taken for a ride..... a long one by the looks of it.

But, legally you signed her over, still the same outcome...........no matter how much you may now protest. The pups belong to her re: endorsement release in the future) as does your bitch (with regards to KC) what a mess you got all these dogs into.

Where the pups were reared doesn't matter, I have often helped rear litters for my pups owners and others, it is the paperwork that matters.

The KC would have put a stop to this if you'd gone prior to signing, but a signature is a signature, you signed everything away..... live and learn, is all you can do.

Hi carrington have you checked the rules and regulations for placing endorsements?

Yes I agree with what you said regarding the purchaser challenge it if they meet the criteria.i just don't want the same to happen to other people because that would make me just as bad.

>Physical and legal possession of a dog or bitch is nothing to do with the registering by the KC, who a dog lives with, who feeds it or pays its bills is nothing to do with the KC either, all they go by is what is on the paperwork.

Actually that's not quite correct; the KC website states that the person placing the endorsements must have physical possession of the dog at the time of placement.

And also contracts between seller and purchaser.

I'm confused is the breeder refusing to sign the bitch back over to the owner unless she has her spayed?

So as I understand this your bitch has always lived with you, was health tested by you, was mated by you (did you pay the stud fee?) and then the litter was whelped and reared by you with all the litter expenses paid by you.

If the bitch was in her breeder's name at the time of whelping and she has then registered the litter in her name with breeding endorsements put on all the puppies, who paid the KC registration fees for the litter, you or the breeder? Did you keep one or more of the puppies or were they all sold?

Am I right in thinking that you want to breed again from this bitch? Can someone confirm that if the breeder transfers the bitch back into Doglover86's name they can re-apply the breeding endorsement? I suppose if you were happy to have your girl spayed now there wouldn't be an issue.

I have a friend who owns a British rare breed and  her breeder keeps everything she breeds in joint names, has the bitch back for breeding and rearing of litter and then hands the bitch back. My friend had to pay half the cost of a puppy to get one of her bitch's litter, with the same terms. At least she knew what she was signing up to.

Yes, Doglover86,

Sorry was busy..........

I think there is a lot of conflict and misunderstanding between registered owner and physical possession, a registered owner can still claim physical possession over a dog (re:paperwork) without it living with them, which is what can be countered here. There are plenty of joint ownership or things that happen where a bitch may need to be housed elsewhere, often with a pet home, these people can simply claim that you house and care for their stock, it happens a lot and for your hard work you were allowed to keep some of the puppy money.

Endorsement rules were not necessarily broken here, if you put a different spin on it, which I guess they will.

Your pups owners do need to know who is lifting endorsements if needed, that rule should not have been broken, and hopefully was explained at the time?

I do feel very sorry for you......and I don't agree with what has happened.......I just wish you'd queried everything before, not after....

Hi please can you explain the difference between phyischal possesion off a dog and the opposite no phyischal possession off a dog.

12. Endorsements

    General. The registered owner(s) of a dog may, whilst the dog is still in his / her physical possession, apply to place one or more endorsements on a dog's record and to have the registration certificate annotated accordingly. The endorsements, which may be placed as follows: -
        R - Progeny not eligible for Registration
        X - Not eligible for the issue of an Export Pedigree

That makes this statement in the regs very confusing

>>>If you looking in the rules and regs tho it clearly states that endorsements can only be  placed by the registered owner off the dog if it is in their phyischal possesion<<

when your dog was a pup and was registered and endorsed by the breeder it probably was still in the breeders possession I am guessing?

Yes that is true.but it is not true that the litter was in the owners phyischal possesion.when endorsements was placed

The Kennel Club cannot comment upon the contents of a private contract especially relating to whether any terms described therein have been met or not, but can only look at whether the endorsement has been placed in accordance with our Rules and Regulations.
In order to comply with the Kennel Club rules on placing endorsements, the KC requires that the dog be in the physical possession of the endorser and that they obtain a written agreement, ideally in the form of a private contract, signed by the new owner to acknowledge that they have been informed that an endorsement has been placed. If endorsements are being used, it is helpful to both parties if the contract mentions why these have been placed and under what conditions they would be removed.

The contract that they have signed is false.why would the breed lift the endorsement for the purchasers if hasn't for myself.  They have signed a contract stating if hip score elbow score suitable stud etc.which if they do I think more than likely the endorsements will not be lifted under the putchasers ownership.

I'll try to put it as simply as I can....... I'm known for writing essays.... but I'll try...........;-)

When your bitch was in whelp, you transfered ownership:

For you the owner to transfer registration to another person for breeding purposes you are in fact transferring the bodily possession of that dog for that reason, she may still live with you, but you've signed away your rights to her as a breeding vessel, the registered owner has now a viable 'interest' in her, to whelp and bare pups therefore they also have a physical possession of that bitch re: her breeding rights. 

Sometimes a foundation breeder will hold onto that registration paperwork at the time of sale, if pick of litter lives elsewhere so that they have their registered and physical possession still intact, to be transfered if breeding does not happen or a bitch/dog is neutered.

This was done a cack-handed and in a greedy way, but it is the same thing.......... now

The KC have worded it 'physical possession', which any good lawyer can twist and turn to mean so much more than the fact that you are her main carer as in many inst. there are many reasons for homing a bitch/dog elsewhere.

This is not a case of someone forgetting to transfer ownership..... that would make you the one and only person in physical possession of the dam, unfortunately, you actually transfered your bitch body and soul after mating, making them as interested a party in her as yourself.

The outcome may well rely on how the other parties reply........ sounds to me as though they know what they are doing though....

In what context are they using phyischal possesion.because if they didn't mean actual physical possesion why put the wording in the rules and regs and not just put instead the breeder can place endorsements if they are the registered owner off the dog.

Also the kc paper work also states that kc ownership does not make you the legal owner off a dog.