Hi all,

Brought home a new puppy on Monday, it's been 5 days and my daughter is scared is walk on the floor, sit on a chair with legs down, even sits on table, runs to her room getting home from school and doesn't come down.  She cries at the thought of walking past the puppy, english springer. 

My middle child is more confident but any quick action and he Is running away screaming and the dog then follows quickly.    My youngest child wants me to carry him, dogs face is almost jealousy, and he also is scared to walk by dog. 

I haven't spent any time with them as constantly with this puppy, taking it outside for business etc.  he howls if I'm not in room with him, scratches the door whining for me and can't be left alone.  He is three months old.

I like having the dog but I am not liking how my children are not comfortable at home and it's breaking my heart not being able to spend time with them As the dog is interrupting my thoughts with his noise and needs.

I've always wanted a dog but I'm a my first and feel very stupid for getting in this psition, what are we (husband and I) meant to do now? 

Ask your children if they want you to return the pup to the breeder, if they say yes you have no choice, if they say no you need to sort out a plan of action. Puppy teeth are very sharp.

We did, they all say no which is crazy given their reactions.

Could you try involving them in the dogs training and teaching the dog simple commands, whilst making it fun for both children and puppy. Does pup go to any training classes and if so, do the children go with you?

Then you need to draw some rules up. Give the puppy a space he can be safely shut away from the children. Its not fair that are frightened to walk in their own home. Equally the puppy needs to have certain times that are for him. When the kids squeal they entice play and play to a puppy means biting. You need to very carefully monitor and sessions when children and puppy are together and the kids need to learn that calm quiet play is needed. If puppy bites then all play stops. The puppy needs to learn that the times when he is shut away are for sleeping or playing on his own. It all takes time but you can do it with hard work. Read  The bite stops here by Ian Dunmore.

I can sympathise. Our son had wanted a dog for years, took 5 years before we felt we were in the position to spend the time needed for a puppy. First 2 weeks we thought we'd made the biggest mistake ever. Our son was just like yours jumping from furniture and not going on the ground. Wouldn't even hold this little 8 week crocodile dog even when he was asleep, just in case he woke up.
The child needed as much training as the puppy. We showed him that when you have a puppy hanging from your trousers if you stand like a statue they get bored and let go, puppy gets a treat child gets rid of dog. The worst thing to do is then run, take beetle steps, if puppy gets on trousers its statue time. To give him the confidence to walk not run or jump so he wouldnt get bitten we got him to wear wellies in the house.
Now they are the best of buddies you wouldn't believe it was the same child around dogs.

>Read  The bite stops here by Ian Dunmore

That's actually Dr Ian Dunbar, and you can find the article and many other on Dogstardaily http://www.dogstardaily.com/ the article you want is here:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/teaching-bite-inhibition

Thank you for this advice everyone. I'm just so sick with stress I have been seriously doubting the decision to get him.

And how about leaving dog to its own devices, either outside or kitchen, he just whines to howls if I'm not there, then just plops himself on floor when I am.  Literally can't get enough quiet time to get children ready for bed and story. 

I feel like such s terrible mum.

If you really want my opinion with this one, it sounds as if with 3 smalls already you have taken on more than can be handled at the moment so I'd take the puppy back.   Before he's traumatised, never mind your kids!!   It may well have been better to have waited until the youngest of your children is over 5 years, by which time they could all start to help you with this new puppy.   From taking it out every couple of hours, to feeding and playing.   It's not normally a good idea to bring in a puppy (unless the dog happens to be there first) with children of under 5 (I'm assuming they are?).   Puppies mouth, and with their sharp teeth, it HURTS.   To say nothing of them and all their friends in running around winding up a puppy. 

The English Springer was always going to be a high energy animal, and ALL puppies take up an enormous amount of time - you must be tired out!!!     It's not your fault, but how I wish breeders would take more care/interest in where the puppies they are responsible for producing, are going.    Personally I was never happy to send a puppy into a home with three small children, for this very reason - unless the new owners were very experienced people.

Again, I'd take the puppy back.   Heartbreaking I know, but I think right now, it would be best for everybody.

The reality of a new puppy can come as a real shock, even to people who've had dogs before. We forget how much time they need, how messy and noisy they are, and how sharp their teeth are! (Much like the way we forget the worst aspects of labour and childbirth, or nobody would ever have a second child ;-) ) If you have small children as well the workload can seem impossible, making you feel you're being stretched too far in too many directions at once.

Puppies invariably get over-excited by the high-pitched voices and sudden jerky movements of children; it makes them want to play and rough-and-tumble as they would with their canine littermates, but children don't automatically understand this. And of course puppies don't have hands to grab hold of things the way children do, only their mouths, and those teeth are like needles. It's not intended to hurt, but it does!

You have two main options; you can insist that the children behave calmly around the puppy - no screaming or running to wind it up, and make sure that the puppy has time away from the children just with an adult, for gentle training, and for rest; just like toddlers, puppies need a lot of naps; we all know what a pain an overtired toddler is, all hyperactive but grizzly! The second option is to return the puppy to the breeder whilst he's still young enough to be easily homeable and before he's become too mixed up. Neither option is easy but obviously you can't continue as you are.

And how about leaving dog to its own devices, either outside or kitchen, he just whines to howls if I'm not there, then just plops himself on floor when I am.  Literally can't get enough quiet time to get children ready for bed and story. 

Some pups are harder work than others -is your Springer from show lines or working lines? I have just 4 weeks ago taken in a pup that the new owner couldn't cope with (I did not breed this pup) -he gave up after 48 hours and he was a single man with no children. He tried for a further 3 days then realised he just couldn't do it. I CAN understand it because this pup IS hard work and we're having to gradually train him to be left alone for short periods of time, increasing it little by little. When he first arrived you could not even leave the room, and he would not even go into the garden. And I have other dogs that he has company of! Had I still had young kids I don't think I would have coped. I think you do need to have a long and hard think about whether this pup and your circumstances are right at this very moment, and if you are not sure -take the pup back before he gets much older as he is still young enough to settle elsewhere. Should he be 5-6 months old it would be an awful lot harder for his breeder to find a new home for him, and training will be harder as well.

Yes the puppy stage can be awful (try a boxer pup!) and yes it has to be gone through....but if you take the good advice here, be prepared to go through some hard times and put strategies in place...it will all seem like a distant dream this time next year.

BUT....if this seems too daunting, Christmas coming up and all...then be kind, let the puppy go.

Springers are at their easiest at 8 weeks so if I were you and feeling like you are, I would take him back to the breeder.  You're not even at the training stage or chewing stage or the growth spurts (where they have boundless energy) where you would need to be on the ball with him all the time. 
If you do decide to keep the puppy, you need to train him to settle in a cage so you can teach him to be alone sometimes.  Sort of like self-soothing with babies? He may cry/howl, but you just need to ignore it completely.
You need to behave like you did when you had 1 child to deal with and a baby, sometimes the baby just had to wait/nap/be alone if the older one needed your attention and vice versa.
Also, try keeping a leash on the pup in the house and tie it to your belt.  That way, if the kids run the puppy can't chase and all interactions are completely supervised and you are able to train much easier to stop the pups game of chase.
Springers have very soft mouths and were bred that way like most gundogs so training them to stop biting is very easy with them if they do it in the first place.  None of mine were ever biters.  Compared to other breeds, I find the gundogs by far the easiest to raise.
Hope this helps and this advice is coming from a home with 4 kids :)

Oh I remember my nieces being scared to come in the house with a collie pup I had, then they couldn't dangle legs or arms or she would nip, she turned into the best dog ever. I see the link to Ian Dunbars 'the bite stops here' has been given. Please do read it and follow it, it really works and particularly as you have young children you need to teach puppy bite inhibition rather than just stop biting.

I don't like pups at all, they're noisy, demanding, messy and bitey - but they're a necessary evil to get to the adult dog you want to enjoy for many years :-)

Even following Dunbars article and going to the best training class your pup is still going to take time to become a civilised member of society, after this manic puppy stage you get the chewing stage then the teenage 'Kevin' stage. I always think it takes abut 2 years to make a good dog, then they just get better and better, I love my oldies :-)

So, you have to decide if you can put a lot of work and effort into the pup for the next 2 years and end up with a wonderful dog that will grow with your children and be a great companion for the whole family, or if you simply don't have the time for that with a busy household in which case returning to the breeder, assuming they are a responsible one, would be the answer.

>I don't like pups at all, they're noisy, demanding, messy and bitey - but they're a necessary evil to get to the adult dog you want to enjoy for many years

Ditto; the best thing about puppies is that they soon grow up to be dogs. :-)

I always think it takes abut 2 years to make a good dog, then they just get better and better, I love my oldies :-)

A frequent comment of mine is that I wish pups were born already 2 years old. :)

>A frequent comment of mine is that I wish pups were born already 2 years old.

not so much fun for Mum but great for new owners :-)

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">>I don't like pups at all, they're noisy, demanding, messy and bitey - but they're a necessary evil to get to the adult dog you want to enjoy for many years <br />Ditto; the best thing about puppies is that they soon grow up to be dogs. :-)

Glad I'm not alone I breathe a sigh of relief once they are two and really love them once they reach four.

>I don't like pups at all, they're noisy, demanding, messy and bitey - but they're a necessary evil to get to the adult dog you want to enjoy for many years :-)"

Oh I love pups! Not because they are cute cuddly and snugable! Well OK that might be part of it :)  I love taking a little heathen and showing it how wonderful the world is. I love training puppies. I love watching their understanding grow. I love shaping their behaviour so they turn out (hopefull) to be the adult I can be proud of. I love how our relationship grows and deepens as we get to know each other. I love the challenge of working out how to get the pup to understand what I want.

Dont get me wrong I would prefer not to have the puddles and chewed stuff but if I do have accidents it is because I am not doing my job properly. I have not got the puppy outside when they needed to go or I have not given they sufficient suitable items to chew and directed them correctly.

I love my adults too as they are so easy to live with and rewarding. We almost have a telepathic connection at times. But I wouldnt have got there if I didnt spend the time with the puppy developing that relationship and guiding their little minds so they turn into that easy loving adult.

>Oh I love pups! Not because they are cute cuddly and snugable! Well OK that might be part of it <img alt=":-)" src="/images/default/sml_pos.png" class="sml" />  I love taking a little heathen and showing it how wonderful the world is. I love training puppies. I love watching their understanding grow. I love shaping their behaviour so they turn out (hopefull) to be the adult I can be proud of. I love how our relationship grows and deepens as we get to know each other. I love the challenge of working out how to get the pup to understand what I want.

I have got to agree, I LOVE puppies, they are so much fun watching them figure everything out and ive got to say seeing you guys with your Mali pups lately is making me very puppy broody! lol

>I have got to agree, I LOVE puppies, they are so much fun watching them figure everything out and ive got to say seeing you guys with your Mali pups lately is making me very puppy broody! lol

You cant beat a Mali puppy :) Neither myself nor Marianne had planned on having puppies but sometimes life throws these things at you. Part of being a responsible breeder is not just taking back puppies you have bred but also caring about the pups that people breed from your dogs and making sure they don't fall into the wrong hands when it turns out someone else is not as responsible as you thought they were.

I dont know about Marianne but I am having a lot of fun with Breeze although she seems to have discovered her teeth over the last few days hence my relatively new office chair has holes chewed round the bottom of the seat, I have had to buy a new house phone and my walking boots have a frilly design round the top. She can untie my shoe laces faster than I can tie them :)

>You cant beat a Mali puppy

I have to agree :) They are so clever and pick things up so quickly, they are my absolute favorite puppy! Cant wait until my next one (not for another 18 months or so!) Will have to keep watching your guys pups to fill the broody gap! lol

I do think both you and Marianne did a brilliant thing taking on a pup each, especially when you hadn't planned to :)

You cant beat a Mali puppy

Oooh yes you can!!    Basset puppies trump Mali puppies every time  LoL

I have to confess to heaving a sigh of relief once mine reached a year, still in one piece!!!

Oh dear...I am afraid I am one of those who would not have sold you a puppy, for exactly this reason--that's not to dismiss the hard work you've done, it's just about recognising the risk of and potential impact of ongoing stress for everyone .

A puppy pen and some child safety gates may help with containment and separation to give your children safe passage, but it sounds as though you are having to rush from one job to the next and are unlikely to have time to provide the mental stimulation this puppy will need while your children are so young. I hope things get better for you, but if it's a struggle too far do go back to the breeder while the puppy is still young enough to settle into a new home. Once you are ready for a pet I would recommend an older dog. Many breeders do look for good homes to retire their older dogs to, and that could be anything from any older puppy that they've run on for the show ring that didn't quite make the grade, to ex-show or working dogs that are ready for life as a pampered pet.

I do think both you and Marianne did a brilliant thing taking on a pup each, especially when you hadn't planned to :-)

Thank you. :) It was certainly the last thing I had planned -another pup when my homebred one was still only 8 months old, and a male pup at that! And he is hard work, noisy and destructive (and I still MUCH prefer adults!) but he IS a lot of fun as well and has fitted in so well with the other dogs. The 3 entire bitches absolutely adore him. He is so funny the way he is so curious. Last night he went to a local shopping centre to watch the switching on of the Christmas lights. It was PACKED, you could hardly move, and almost everyone had small children with them. He LOVED it all. Lots of the kids had some kind of battery powered sparklers on sticks and he was convinced they must be fancy dog toys, and he had so many cuddles. One toddler kept throwing her bottle for him (3 times!) and I had a right job stopping him from picking it up. Eventually he got tired and laid down and fell asleep in the middle of it all, so then we moved out of the way as I was worried he'd get trodden on.

The moment I heard the pup an owner was desperate to rehome at just 8 weeks was my "grandpup" I knew he had to come here or I'd have forever worried about what happened to him. The breeder would not have been able to find him a home, or take him back. It's going to be fun to be able to meet up with Rubysmum at shows with the littermates next year. :)

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Oh dear...I am afraid I am one of those who would not have sold you a puppy, for exactly this reason

Totally agree, I think with three kids you have more than enough work without adding a ESS pup into the mix.  As most ESS bred are working lines I assume it'll be from these lines and they have high energy demands, I certainly don't think working bred ESS are to be recommended as family pets.  And I say that having had one!

>Part of being a responsible breeder is not just taking back puppies you have bred but also caring about the pups that people breed from your dogs and making sure they don't fall into the wrong hands when it turns out someone else is not as responsible as you thought they were.

I am just going through this nightmare with help of friends in the breed who have dog connected with this poor bitch.

Bitch bought from me, and showed, health tested,  by slightly eccentric but seemingly nice lady who had been around the breed for years.

The ladies accomodation  circumstances and health deteriorated and then the bitch got to five which is past the age advised for a first litter.

No-one would allow stud service as they were living in a Campervan.

She tried yet again to find a  stud dog back in July (even though bitch still endorsed), was refused, so a few days later she rings me to say she was mismated on a late nigh walk by a collie.

No worries says I get Alizin injections when season ends no puppies.

Oh no she wants her bitch to be a mummy and she ahs so many friends at dog t4raining who love zoe and surely Collie Cross Elkhound pupies woudl make wonderful dogs (not in my book).

I told her I would never speak to her again if she did this to a bich who is 6 on Christmas day.

I honestly thought she would see sense of the bitch had missed.

Cue a good Samaritan who found her struggling to cope and no homes on the horizon contacting our breed and recue facebook group with urgent help needed by old lady for accidental litter. 

At this point she was wanting help to SELL the pups. 

Anyway breed rescue remit is to help breed representatives not crossbreeds but would list the details, for me.

Anyway my friends have just picked them up and they are on the way into foster care, on with my friend in Somerset, I pick three up from her tomorrow and keep one to foster and taking two other to meet a friend coming down from Scotland who has found a suitable home for one and will foster the other.

Of course she isn't going to pay for 1100 miles of fuel consumed, vaccinations worming and food for pups.

Good Samaritan has told her bitch needs spaying asap. oh no, she intends to breed from her again!!!

Our hope is that the warden n campsite will threaten to evict if she doesn't spay as he had lots of complaints about the pups.

Good Samaritan/neighbour will keep eye on bitch as she is very friendly with her.

Barbara I saw these pups in a photo saying they had gone into rescue and were looking for homes and the person who shared the photo on Facebook said they might be suitable for agility.

Good Samaritan has told her bitch needs spaying asap. oh no, she intends to breed from her again!!!


What a nightmare! You'd have thought with the pups not selling she'd have learnt a lesson!! Touchwood, the pups Rubysmum and I ended up taking on came from a litter of just 3 where the breeder only managed to sell ONE -which is the one I have as new owner could not cope. He kept one himself and I think he realises now that breeding wasn't as easy as he thought. Why on earth would somebody want to repeat an experience which ended up with pups with no homes and no money made! :(

What a nightmare! You'd have thought with the pups not selling she'd have learnt a lesson

It's possible that eccentricity has progressed to mental health problems as well as general health problems (none of us is immune ;-) )   Some health problems if not diagnosed properly and treated can lead to mental impairment too -  it's not just dogs that are affected.

And of course part of that is the inability to recognise that they can't cope.   Also an inability to learn from experience.

If this lady's financial situation has also deteriorated,  she may well be convinced,  however misguidedly,  that breeding her dog will bring in  money,  despite evidence to the contrary     :-(

Very frustrating situation no matter what the cause :-(

Another pup lover here.  I adore puppies.

>my walking boots have a frilly design round the top

ROFL!!!!

>It's possible that eccentricity has progressed to mental health problems

Most definitely, and as the bitch got past 3 and 4 this became more an more and more apparent.

Brainless what an awful situation but well done to all you wonderful people who do step and untangle other peoples mess or even problems that couldn't be foreseen

Dreadful situation, and I can imagine how frustrated you must be feeling :(

In hindsight, perhaps the considerable help given in homing the pups could have been conditional on the bitch being speyed immediately?   I know 8 weeks after a litter isn't ideal but under the circumstances... :-(

Isn't hindsight wonderful - not! :(

I have a lovely bitch of 6 years, too old IMHO for a first time breeding and our circumstances weren't right to have a litter from her before, but the only thing I'm considering is when to spey her, not a litter of pups, no matter how much I'd like one from her, and she is the last of my line :(  sometimes life has other plans :(

Just a suggestion for the OP if she does decide to keep the pup (and I put my hands up to being one of the tribe who would  not have sold her a puppy with a young family.   When we did have a litter, and had youngish children, as they were coming out of the puppy pen to be socialised in the family before going to forever homes, my children clumped around the house in their wellies!   Not my suggestion - think DD decided that she didn't like getting her knees nipped by baby puppy teeth - in fact they called the puppies croco-pups!

>In hindsight, perhaps the considerable help given in homing the pups could have been conditional on the bitch being speyed immediately?   I know 8 weeks after a litter isn't ideal but under the circumstances... :-(<br />

Pups are 11 1/2 weeks so the time I usually spay my bitches after their last litter.

It only came to light that she would not get her spayed when pups picked up.

I'd have threatened to leave the pups there,  just to see her face ;-)

But then,  there would be the risk of her calling my bluff.

I'd never make a dog warden or a dog trainer,  I don't have the patience or the diplomatic skills ;-)

Neither did I which is why she doesn't know I'm involved (probably guess though) as I told her if the let the pregnancy go forward I'd never speak to her again.

She knows my friend who picked pup up, one is my first ever puppy buyer and her homebred champion bitch is half sister to pups Mum, and on the dams side goes back to mine.  

All foster homes have relatives of the bitch.

Does this woman realise how many people are mopping up her mess :-(

Sad to say but many 'Do because they can'.

I have contacted internationally my breed contacts to refuse to enter into any semen import plans, as apart from anything else pups would be non registerable. 

All UK breed people with stud dogs and the breed club and rescue know about this.

If she ends up with another cross bred litter in those unsuitable conditions I will call the RSPCA myself and accept I may loose touch with the bitch.