Hi,

I've been coming to the forum for helpful tips for a while, but have only just decided to register as I'd like some opinions and advice from some experienced breeders.

I've got a friend who recently bred a litter of pups. The dog was a first time mum, and although she's always been a fussy eater, the pregnancy was smooth. My friend was advised by a reputable canine reproduction specialist to give her girl antibiotics prior to the mating, so her vet prescribed her a weeks course of Noroclav. Throughout her pregnancy, mum's routine stayed the same, until it got close to her due date and she decided she wanted to stay at home. She went on her usual walking routes, and was bathed on a few occasions after the walks.

The first time mum self-whelped at 60 days, in the early hours of the morning, without any problems, and the pups appeared to be suckling on mum since born without any issues. My friend stayed in the room with the pups the following day, only leaving them to go to the bathroom. She slept in the whelping room and woke up every hour to check on the pups, everything seemed fine until 6am in the morning and found one pup had died, and one was crying.

My friend phoned up the emergency vets immediately and took mum and pups straight there. Upon her arrival (at around 6:20am), the struggling pup had died, and there was only one live pup left. After 30 minutes of the vet giving my friend a lecture on giving mum a better diet (i.e. not raw because 'there are plenty complete foods which would give mum a better foundation'), and another 15 minutes disappearing into the back to get information on post-mortems for the dead puppies... she finally examined the live pup and injected some antibiotics into her. The vet told my friend that it sounded like the mum's milk was infected and to stop mum from feeding the remaining pup, she also prescribed my friend a dose of antibiotics for the pup.

Later that afternoon, my friend took pup and mum to her usual vets (booked the previous day, when everything was fine), she'd explained what had happened and what the emergency vets had told her. The usual vets told my friend to let mum carry on feeding pup as he'd never heard of anything like that before. He reassured my friend that she was doing the right thing and let mum carry on cleaning and feeding pup. A few hours after the visit, pup no longer wanted to suckle on mum and was being hand fed by my friend, this carried on throughout the evening, with my friend cleaning pup too. The last puppy left for rainbow bridge in the early hours the next morning (6:30am).

Sorry for the long post.
I'd like to know if this sounds like fading puppy syndrome or was it mum's infected milk?

http://www.pets4homes.co.uk/pet-advice/fading-puppy-syndrome-neonatal-mortality.html

Obviously some of this you can skip over, but my feeling with this is it's often down to bacteria, which is mentioned as a possible cause.

It's tragic and not only is the mewling (like a seagull calling) totally upsetting to the owners, but also to the bitch.   It can strike at any time ...... the breeder of my Whippet lost 2 litters to this and was heartbroken.

Obviously you/you friend needs to concentrate on getting mum through this - she may well need help to scatter her milk, for starters.   The sooner the bitch gets back to her normal routine, bearing in mind she's not going to need her normal amount of food, and especially not protein, the better.   Our first litter was just two puppies, and due to my inexperience, we lost one of them at that.   Mum clearly knew she should have had 2, and was looking for the lost one for some days afterwards.     She was loaded with milk too which was great for the singleton puppy ( and I had to make sure he was going to all the teats to avoid mastitis) but not so great for me, or mum.

Thank you MamaBas for replying.

Sorry I should have been more clear in my initial post, by 'recently' I meant a few months ago. Mum is back to her normal self - thank goodness! I was just discussing it with my friend, so thought I'd post on here to see what others thought.

There was no mewling, throughout the whole ordeal, from any of the puppies - which is why some people have told my friend it isn't fading puppy. She didn't go through with the puppy post-mortems as the results were not definitive, and she really wanted to have some closure on the whole thing.

Has anything similar happened to anyone else? Did you repeat the mating again? If so, did you change anything? What were the outcomes?

I wonder if Canine Herpes Virus ought to be considered.

I've always understood that 'Acid Milk' was an old wives tale.

I have had a bitch with serious mastitis, pups continued to feed, just avoiding infected gland.

I'd agree with Goldmali and think that CHV might be the cause, certainly to be considered. If she is to be mated again then I'd want to get her tested for CHV and probably vaccinated but don't know the details.

>I have had a bitch with serious mastitis, pups continued to feed, just avoiding infected gland.

Same here.  A Yorkshire Terrier bitch with a huge inflamed teat was my experience and I took her to the vet, but I never at any time considered stopping mum from feeding.  I just ensured that they fed off all remaining teats and all was well.

Yes re CHV which would come under the heading of 'fading puppy syndrome'.   We had mastitis and the puppies were not affected.

And I found this .......https://www.aspca.org/pet-care/dog-care/canine-herpes

FAQ Forum: Fading Puppy Syndrome

Thanks everyone

Yes, my friend's usual vet also mentioned the Canine Herpes Virus, so the vaccine is definitely an area to consider, if she decides to repeat the mating.

What about in terms of daily routine?
Did you treat the bitch different after mating or kept her routine the same? Avoid certain areas? Prior to mum whelping, did you bath her? If so, did you use a natural shampoo that didn't contain all the chemicals of usual shampoos?

I'm aware everyone has their own way and reasons for doing so, but I'm just trying to find out for her, where she might have gone wrong. I also understand that sometimes, no matter how much preparation, research and testing is carried out, Mother Nature has the final say. Like puppies born in the dire conditions of puppy farms, and you ask yourself 'how have those puppies managed to thrive'?

How sad for your friend. On balance the CHV vaccination sounds like it should be part of prophylactic care of the bitch and litter--I had no hesitation taking my bitch but was a bit surprised to hear my vet say that relatively few people bother.

I have had a very similar experience.  First time Mum whelped 5 puppies without any trouble, over the next 36 hours we lost 3, the mewling and crying is terrible and despite vet assistance the puppies passed away.  We put it down to CHV, and that the puppies died from fading puppy syndrome, although no post mortems were carried out.  The next year I repeated the same mating and had my girl vaccinated with the CHV vaccine. Again we had another 5 puppies, who all thrived and were healthy.  I now always routinely vaccinate my Mums to be against CHV after that terribly heart breaking experience.

A  friend lost a litter of 6 in exactly the same way, natural birth, no complications but puppies all died one after the other, largest and strongest ones first.She was told it was due to "toxic milk". I have always used the herpes vaccine on my girl.

Herpes virus is killed by high temperatures.

the reason it gets a hold in newborn puppies is their lower body temperature.

If the virus is suspected pups need to be kept uber (uncomfortably) warm.

This is the reason it rarely affects pups over three weeks once their body temperature has stabilised and reached adult.

Thanks all, for sharing your experiences and input.

My friend was aware of the CHV vaccine, but was told that it was unnecessary from more experienced people in the breed. I'm sure it's definitely something she'll take into consideration, if she decides to repeat the mating. The CHV vaccine is 2 injections, one is administered 7-10 after mating and the second is administered a week before whelping, is that right?

Jay15, did you get your first time mum vaccinated against CHV? Congratulations on your recent litter, by the way :)

Hexie, apart from having mum vaccinated against CHV, did you do anything else differently the second time round?

Biffsmum, it's weird you mentioning the largest and strongest puppies dying first! My friend was so shocked, once she got to the emergency vets, when the vet lifted the largest pup out of the box and declared her dead. She couldn't believe what she was hearing, because 20 minutes earlier, the pup was very much alive when she put her in the box.

Brainless, thanks for the insight regarding temperature. The emergency vet had given my friend a hard time about the box being too warm!! Unfortunately, I think she must have drawn a short straw with the vet on the day.

TheBearded One - I did nothing at all differently with the subsequent litters apart from administering the CHV vaccine, but the difference in the litters was amazing and I cannot attribute this to anything else.  The puppies were settled, robust, fed well and most importantly, quiet and contented. 
Helplessly watching crying puppies is very distressing for all concerned and to gradually lose them one by one as they fade away is traumatic, and not something I ever wish to witness again if I can avoid it. I will always administer the CHV vaccine in future.
I understand that the vaccine can be administered during the season or 7-10 days after mating.  I have given the first vaccine before mating on one occasion and after mating on another and it didn't seem to affect the outcome, both pregnancies resulted in good sized litters of robust puppies.  The second injection is given up to 10 days before the due date of whelping I think.  I give it about 8 days before the due date, just in case the bitch whelps early, as can happen sometimes. I haven't heard of any side effects to this vaccine but would be interested to hear if there is a down side. Otherwise its a win, win situation surely.
Hope this helps, but I'm no expert and am always willing to learn and share my experiences.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. It's definitely comforting to know you have had different results, after administering the vaccine in subsequent litters.

Jay15, did you get your first time mum vaccinated against CHV?

Yes, I did, it was something I decided on ages before I had her mated just based on reading about the terrible distress caused by watching a litter go downhill. I can't believe I'm the only one in this breed who's ever used it, but equally I have not come across a single other breeder who has taken it up as an option. I did have a few comments about the way I was spending money (on travel, stud, veterinary care, equipment) I'd make a loss on the litter....!!!!!!!??????!