Has anyone come across dogs with extra teeth? I'm not talking about retained puppy teeth, but extra adult teeth. Dickie (GR, four and a half months old) looks to be developing a wry bite which will obviously deem him un-showable, which is disappointing to say the least, but he also seems to have 2 extra incisors at the top (unless his canines are coming through in completely the wrong place, but I don't think that's the case). One of the other dog's has got a vet visit on Wednesday so I'm going to take him along as well, but just wondered if anyone has come across anything like this.

Not being able to show him is a shame, but I'm more concerned about the health of his mouth and the impact of wrongly placed teeth. I guess I'll only get an accurate picture once the canines are through along with the rest of his adult teeth.

Canines can  come through in the wrong place.   It seems to be very common too.

If they  are coming in inside the position of the puppy canines,  then they may reposition.

This makes good reading  and is very informative   (pdf files -  sorry)
A Removable Orthodontic Device for the Treatment of Lingually Displaced Madibular Canines in Young Dogs by Leen Verhaert DVM

Synopsis here
Ball Therapy 

Hope this helps

NB  This procedure would still count as a cosmetic procedure for the purposes of showing and breeding ;-)     The information is given so that all options can be considered to ensure the dog's comfort.  

Thanks Dill. The trouble is I can't get a really good view of what's going on, he's much too wriggly, but I can see that they aren't right.

You're welcome :-D

Hope you're worrying about nothing.    Puppies are so difficult to check over,  mouths especially,  they just don't want you in there   ;-)

Have come across missing teeth (not extracted just never present) but not extra teeth, I am not in a breed where tooth numbers are that much of a concern providing the bite is correct and the dog can eat without problem but can understand in breeds where tooth numbers are considered important and are 'counted' in the ring this would be a huge problem.  Would suggest you do not worry too much but let the vet take a look when the dog is sedated or under for some other reason unless it seems they are causing problems.

For anyone interested I have managed to take some photo's. There are definitely extra teeth at the top, best shown in the open mouth shot (I've marked the canines with "C" to clarify). Bottom teeth look normal.

http://s24.photobucket.com/user/pedlee/library/?sort=3&page=1

Very strange! I've never seen anything like that before; there are definitely two extra top incisors.

Just back from the vet who said that although it's not that common, if any extra teeth are present it's usually the top incisors, as is the case here.

She also said that as long as the adult teeth continue to come through as they are there shouldn't be a need for any treatment, but to keep a close eye on the situation and watch for any problems with teeth impeding the gums.

Isn't it typical that the puppy you keep from a long planned for litter should end up like this. :(

Rather than adding to the other thread regarding "tooth problems" I thought I'd update my original thread.

Dickie's definitely got 8 adult incisors at the top causing overcrowding. The lower left canine is unable to grow into it's normal position and will ultimately grow into the roof of his mouth if left as is. So my vet has referred us to a dental specialist vet and the plan of action is remove 1 or 2 of the extra incisors at the top and fit him with a brace to hopefully pull the bottom canine into the correct position. Will cost in the region of £800-£1200. Thank goodness for the insurance.

We had one with a row, double banked of extra teeth.  I can't remember whether they were top or bottom to be honest, but my vet said he'd seen it before, in some puppies bred by a local Dachsie breeder.   He whipped them out and that was that.   Never saw it before, or after.

Hi

Pedlee - presumably your insurers will pay for this?  Mine (Kennel Club) had never heard of a brace but said that if it comes to that they would "look at it".

Does anyone know of any dog who has had a brace?  I don't but obviously some must have had this treatment and it would be great to know a)if it works and b) how long it takes.  I am sure that Sophie will have to resort to this - unless the ball method works!!

Yes, insurers (VetsMediCover) will pay. I've also never come across a dog with a brace so would also be interested if anyone knows a dog that has had this type of treatment.

This is where we are going: http://www.mulberryvets.co.uk/referrals/

Braces - I gather it is done in my breed (illegal from a showing point of view of course!).   But then a lot of things are going on out there which, breeding properly, should /could be avoided!!!   Tacking eyelids on baby puppies ..... for starters.   And when I expressed my horror at this going on, I was told 'it's normal'.   Not when I was breeding it wasn't!!!

I have no intention of "cheating" and sadly won't show him. I kept Dickie with the hope of being able to show him and he is looking lovely apart from the blinking teeth, but agree there seems to be a lot of undeclared "cosmetic" work going on which judges obviously aren't aware of.

Me too.  I took ages to get to grips  with my girl's coat - never gave a thought to teeth.  Maybe though we could still show her in fun shows - but for us it is a huge disappointment as our intention was to do serious showing. 

>We had one with a row, double banked of extra teeth.  I can't remember whether they were top or bottom to be honest, but my vet said he'd seen it before, in some puppies bred by a local Dachsie breeder.   He whipped them out and that was that.   Never saw it before, or after.

How interesting.  I had a LC Chihuahua with exactly the same.  I waited until I could have them all removed at the same time.  I had never, ever seen it before in all of my dog life.  I let him go to a pet home.  Peculiar to look at.  I took a double take when I realised what I was looking at.  It was the top jaw only.

>  Maybe though we could still show her in fun shows - but for us it is a huge disappointment as our intention was to do serious showing.

Yes, I think fun shows are as much as we will do. Dickie will also be the last of my line and I'd hoped to go out on a high. Obviously wasn't meant to be, so we'll just have to do agility or gundog work...

but for us it is a huge disappointment as our intention was to do serious showing. 

Aah, the best laid plans!   My last buy in Basset was one of those.  I bought him at 4 months.   He'd been run on as a show-potential and having come to the end of my own bloodline I was hoping to get back in the ring, even if just locally. 

First off he went lame in front at around 8 months and x-rays right through showed he had premature closure of the growth plates, ulna, both sides.  As a result he now has too much 'turn out' for me to be happy to show him.   Then there's his eyes - too much turn out on the bottom row (ectropion) which is very much a no-no in the breed right now.  So I'd not go in the ring with him for that reason .... and then there's his mouth - looks like skittles in a bowling alley now.   Leaving out the fact he had Giardia, and roundworm ova early on.......  

Good job he's SUCH a nice boy, very 'typey' and a joy to live with.  He stops people in the street all the time!  Otherwise he'd have gone back!!!   He's a keeper.

ps   He came from somebody I'd known for as long as I've been around the breed too!!

Can you get a letter to show still, as it was a medical issue not cosmetic?

I don't know but I doubt it Lucy!  Still if I ever get another wire I shall pay great attention to its teeth before purchasing.  I am beginning to think it takes several attempts to get a good show dog.  I did show the sheltie for a bit (unsuccessfully) but her eyes are too round (they should be almond shaped) and her head a bit small - so if I ever get another sheltie (and they are lovely versatile little dogs) I would know what to look for (her teeth of course are perfect!!).  I could end up with far too many dogs.......

I bred Dickie and checked his mouth all the time. The stud dog owner also checked when she chipped them, as did 2 different vets when he went for his first and second vaccination so even at 12 weeks his bite was OK. It was only when the adult teeth started coming through I noticed problems developing.

So, no matter how carefully you check a puppy, unless you are going to get it as a young adult rather than the usual 8 weeks there are no guarantees a good puppy mouth will stay that way.

Fixing a knee was not cosmetic but it still resulted in being classed as 'an unfair advantage over other dogs who have not had the operation' to the KC and permission denied.

That is such a shame as he is such a lovely boy.

I know Lucy, but such is life...

Well as you know I got my best ever show dog as my first dog - Ellie's pretty good but not in his league, and neither of the younger ones are particularly good, except for the wonderfully strange judge who gave Lottie 3rd at Crufts, having qualified her purely by being 3rd of 3 in a class! I'm still looking, but it's so hard to get the breeders to part with the promising ones, of course!!

>I am beginning to think it takes several attempts to get a good show dog.

Yes it often does. When choosing a puppy it can be very hard to decide which shows the most promise. Many a breeder has kept what they thought was the best only to have the pet puppy they sold down the road turn out better. And even if you get the best puppy things can still go wrong with mouths, temreraments coats etc. If picking a top quality show dog was easy we would all have one :)

It's 'easier' to persuade a breeder to part with a show-potential male than a female because we tend to hang onto the good females, whereas there is a limit to how many males most breeders can realistically keep.   And provided the person involved is prepared to mentor/be a mentor, I'd suggest breeders would be very happy to let a good male go to a potential show-home!!    There are two ways to do this however - buy a puppy with 'potential', and hope that potential works out (difficult with Bassets!!) or see if, as I did with my boy, buy a slightly older one who has been selected as having potential by the breeder, and run on, perhaps with more than one from that litter!   The older still promising puppy will cost more however.   And again, is more likely to be a male.

However, having said that, I managed to persuade a 'friend' to part with a good bitch, much as she really wanted me to come over from Canada to pick her (she had two of around 5 months from that litter).   As I couldn't, I have the breeder of one of my then males go into the kennel for me (they were also friends) and between them they decided which of the two bitches to send out to me!!   There were areas to be worked on with her (front excellent, rear not so much) but she did take her Canadian title and as rears were at the time, better over there than in the UK in any case, finding a good stud dog to improve that, wasn't difficult.

Never mind you will still have fun with him !

>If picking a top quality show dog was easy we would all have one :-)

:-)  :-)  :-)

Have to agree I have picked wrong for myself, been unable to keep another when a good or better one appeared in another litter due to numbers owned. 

I have owned 9 so far, and been lucky to make up three of them, but the first of those was my 4th dog, then my 5th and then 7th. 

The 6th was kept for overseas bloodlines and not shown after 18 months.

Be a miracle to go all the way with the 8th, and chances with the 9th are slim but have hopes we might do at full maturity.

When choosing at baby puppy stage it's only ever promise and sadly often they don't reach it.

Also agree about males.  I don't keep males at all, so if there is a good male in a litter I would always be more than happy for someone to want to show it.

Just a little update.....He's had the 2 extra incisors removed and thankfully hasn't needed a brace atm. The vet is hopeful the lower canine will now grow into the space created.

So pleased for you and Dickie.  Fingers crossed all goes as planned!

Just an update on Sophie the WFT.

Back to vets but sadly the ball therapy hadn't improved matters with the crooked lower right canine.  So she is to have a top tooth removed in order to make space for the offending canine to grow into and to achieve this the vet is making a "device"( like a brace) which stays in place for about 3/4 weeks which should push the canine back into the correct position.  I have spoken to the insurers who - while usually excluding all dental work - are "looking at it" and are writing to the vet for more info.  Pedlee,  my vet knows your chap in Sudbury who treated Dickie.

We will pay for the treatment in any case - not so horrendously expensive as I thought according to the estimate.

The only other course would be to remove the crooked canine which vet says is  an important tooth for chewing etc and keeps the tongue in place!! 

Will keep you posted .....  she is going in for the op on 15 December.

Vet has a duty he says to notify the Kennel Club about this so that Sophie cannot be bred from (obviously) and neither should her ma and pa be bred together again because this is a genetic fault.  They can of course still be bred but not together.  I will have to get Sophie spayed next year.

Thanks for the update snowflake, I've been wondering about Sophie. I'll be thinking of you on the 15th.

Dickie is doing really well, you wouldn't think he'd had anything done apart from he keeps getting fluff caught on the stitches which are taking forever to dissolve. I'm sure Sophie will fine, I just hope she tolerates the plate - I'm so glad it wasn't necessary with Dickie.