Just after some advice on working cocker spaniels! I have owned a springer spaniel in the past, he was a family pet whilst I grew up and he was fantastic. However my house/garden isn't big enough for a springer and I'm looking into getting a working cocker spaniel.
We live in a rural area &  I'm a stay at home mum for now, I have a 2 year old and really want her to grow up around a dog like I did. I have plenty of time to walk the dog, i can be at home as much as needed for the dog, if cockers are anything like springers I can imagine they don't like being left alone for long at all the only thing that concerns me is the temperament of a wcs, I've read horror stories of "rage syndrome" Which I understand is rare but have also heard that the solid coloured cockers especially the golden can be snappy? Not great with kids?
I find this really hard to believe as I've met many working cockers and they were so friendly! Hyperactive and very bouncy but ever so outgoing and loveable.
I've found a breeder who has 3 pups available, 1 golden girl, 1 golden boy and 1 black (with small amount of white) boy, I'm going to see them on Wednesday and just wanted to know what to look for and ask?
I kind of wanted a brown working cocker purely because of this "rage" and people's comments about golden cockers but she doesn't have any, and I'm not convinced in this "if you get a golden cocker it will have rage".
Would this put anybody off?
I have a link for the stud:
http://www.broadleafgundogs.co.uk/studs.php?breed=2
And will be able to meet the mum when I see the pups.
But I'm concerned I don't know enough about breeding to know what a "reliable" breeder is. She is kennel club registered and has had health checks on both mum and dad and come with pedigree certificates, is this enough?
Any advice on how to pick the right family dog would be appreciated, I don't want to get it wrong!

I have no experience of working Cockers, but in general, working versions of any breed tend to NOT be suitable as pure pets, as they have been bred for their working ability above everything else, and as such need a lot more training, exercise and mental stimulation than the show version of the same breed.  Therefore they tend to be most suitable for those wanting a dog to actively work -whether it is in the breed's original function, or agility, obedience, flyball etc.  I have both working and show lines of my breed and there is a huge difference between them, and I have certainly heard that Cockers are much the same.

As for how to pick a good breeder, you should expect the breeder to want to know a lot about you -and with the working version of a breed I'd certainly expect their first question to be WHY you want such a pup; what your plans for it are. Then apart from the relevant health tests etc, you should expect to sign a contract, the breeder should be prepared to help you out with advice at any time during the dog's life, and should be willing to have the dog back should you ever be unable to keep it for any reason whatsoever.

I'd also ask the breeder why they did the mating -a responsibly bred litter will always have been bred for a reason other than just wanting puppies to sell, they will have wanted to continue to improve a good line, to keep a pup for themselves etc.

I don't know if this is happening at all in cocker spaniels, but have a look and see if anyone is breeding dual purpose dogs. It's something that's happening in golden retrievers so that you get the good looks and the health testing from the show bred dog and they are less 'hot' then a pure working retriever.
My current dog is from a dual purpose breeder, their dogs do well in the show ring as well as at field trials. She's a pleasure to have, not too lively, but very clever. Nice combination.

I'd think a working cocker would be far too active as a pet, show strain are pretty active, a worker could be a nightmare, especially with a 2 year old!

Personally I'd be considering the strain more than the colour, I can't imagine why anyone would want a worker of any breed as a pet.

I would also ask about health testing as per this link http://www.workingcockerhealthscreendirectory.com/healthissues.htm. A lot of wc breeders don't health test but as the link states it should be a must for the given reasons.

The working cockers I know are all in homes where they are involved in agility thus having a job to do. They are all very active dogs and without working they would probably all be very hard to live with due to their busy nature. A toddler and a puppy are hard work in their own right and a pup who has been bred to work will be different to one from show lines. The dogs I personally know have wonderful temperaments - and that includes a solid "golden" one - but they are very full on and if they weren't involved with agility I don't think they would make ideal pets.

Bethanyann:  Just looking at the pedigree of the dog you have linked to, if this is the sire of the pups you are interested in he seems come from a line with a large number of Field Trials Champions.  If the dam is bred from similar lines, you could find that you have a very keen, work-oriented or driven bundle - very good if you or other family member plan to work him/her in the field or take part competitively in agility, but not so good if you are looking for a calm family pet.  Cockers as a breed are fantastically friendly;  I would suggest that the hyperactive working cockers you have met are in need of good hard work to fulfill their needs and channel their energies.

I currently have 2 show-type cockers, both can take a couple of hours exercise at a time and (the younger in particular) be ready for more - but they are able to miss a day or two (not more) without exploding.  My previous cocker was a working/show cross and had twice the energy of my current youngster.

With a 2-year-old child you might find it difficult to fit in the amount of exercise a working cocker from Field Trials lines would need, unless you plan to work it seriously.  The dog will reach vigorous young adulthood at about the same time your daughter starts school: will you be able to combine long walks and exercise with school activities?

As for "rage", I believe it is fairly rare, and differs from "snappiness" in that there is some sort of neurological component in "rage", but I cannot comment further as I have no first-hand experience of the condition but certainly not all red or golden cockers suffer from it;  "snappiness" is a behavioural problem which can be avoided by training and age-appropriate exercise mental and physical. 

The link given in Harley's post is very good - the health tests are necessary, and if the parents of the pups you are interested in are not tested you should know why.  Note that "health testing" at this level involves genetic or in-depth screening to detect the presence or absence of conditions which may be develop later or be passed to the offspring, and is different from a "vet health check" which is a snapshot of an animal at a moment in time.

A relative of mine
Experienced dog owner has a working cocker and even she admits the dog is hard work. Lovely temperment and she does take her to classes and has space and another dog at home. And good exercise.This dog never stops and is also vocal,she is always charging around the place. having seen how hard work a working is and having lived with a show bred cocker its not a breed variety I would go for unless I were going to work it. Lovely dog but certainly ADHD and Thats in the hands of someone who is very laid back and tolerant and know what they are doing. Also she has adult children so has time with the digs. I know she would go back to her main breed Goldie's next time

Thanks everyone for your help, I understand they are incredibly hyperactive dogs, I have found a local gun dogs group and I would if I got a cocker certainly take it to them for training classes, they go from basic puppy training to advanced hunting classes etc.
even when my daughter goes to school I do believe id have time to walk the dog for a good 3 hours a day and was hoping that by attending the training classes id learn how to make walks interest and keep the cockers mind busy.
It's a tough one, because I absolutely adore spaniels but I'd hate to get one and find it too much.
My springer could walk all day and still be bouncing off the walls, but it never put me off spaniels.
I haven't met any show cockers and I've had people warn me off them again because of their temperament. It seems everyone has their own experiences and happily share their opinions which makes it very confusing.
I just don't know what to go for, my friend works from home and has a springer spaniel that he walks twice a day (good long walks) and he is a very happy dog, but that's again a springer not a cocker.

I haven't met any show cockers and I've had people warn me off them again because of their temperament.

All breeds have good breeders and bad -unfortunately. The bad breeders breed for money, for fun, don't DO anything with their dogs, and don't pay attention to any potential problems that may be occurring, and that's where you are very likely to find both health and temperament problems. If you pick a breeder that actively shows their dogs, you are very likely to get a pup with great temperament as the dogs MUST be of good temperament to be able to be shown.

Whatever your ultimate choice, always pick a breeder that is actively involved with their dogs, whether it is showing or working them.

Had you considered a Welsh Springer Spaniel.  They do not have the work and show divide being a minority Spaniel.

I personally find them a lot less hyper than English Springers, or Cockers of either type.  They are very attractive with a sensible amount of coat and ear length much more like the working cocker.

I am not a Spaniel person,( I prefer my breeds with more of an off switch) but could just about live with a Welsh springer (have looked after several individuals both male and female for weeks at a time).

My friends who bred them years ago had them primarily as companions though they did go beating with them, most of their puppies went to family homes.

Welsh Springer breed club info: http://www.wssc.org.uk/start.htm

it's not physical exercise working dogs needs it's mental exercise, I know the more walking/running a working Collie has the more it wants & IMHO it's the same for working gundogs. Once a week training isn't enough these dogs need daily mental exercise of a good quality

If you look at the breed standard for show strain cockers, they are known as "merry cockers" because of their temperament. If you go to a good breeder who health tests and shows their dogs, you will do little wrong. Workers are far to busy to be "just pets" IMO.

>I am not a Spaniel person,( I prefer my breeds with more of an off switch) but could just about live with a Welsh springer

Ditto Barbara.  To the OP a Welsh SS are well worth a closer look before you choose.  It's worth bearing in mind too that the breeder you have given in the link for a working cocker seems to breed very regularly (?!) so you could always go back for a later litter and take some more time to decide.

I live in a rural area and there are 3 mums from school with working cockers.

All, are well looked after, exercised copiously and clearly going out of their heads with boredom. Exercise won't deal with it (though that is what they get given, to help), they need brain activity e.g. lots of good quality training, to work, fly ball, obedience or whatever.

All 3 are regretted (though owners are doing their best within their own knowledge) and none would be replaced with the same breed.

It is such a shame. I tried to suggest a well bred, health tested, show type to one of them, but got the "working dogs are healthier, show dogs are all inbred" rubbish....

If you've had a springer than you'd be somewhat prepared I guess! I haven't owned a working cocker myself but I have friends who do, and they make great pets - BUT they are very active families, they do agility / rally / gundog work a LOT with these dogs. I don't think a working cocker would be suitable for the sort of family where they just get 10 or 15 minutes walk and are then expected to loaf around and snooze all day, but if you're going to actually do some work, both physical exercise and brainwork, it could work just fine.

I do believe id have time to walk the dog for a good 3 hours a day and was hoping that by attending the training classes id learn how to make walks interest and keep the cockers mind busy.
It's a tough one, because I absolutely adore spaniels but I'd hate to get one and find it too much.

You don't actually need to walk a working dog (of any breed) for 3 hours a day....by doing so, all you end up doing is getting the dog fitter and fitter and fitter and making a rod for your own back.  To be honest, you don't WALK working dogs in the sense that most pet owners use that word.  When I take my dogs out, firstly, it is one on one when training....for the first two years of their life, at least.  That means they are the 100% focus of my attention, there are no children in tow, no friends chattering in my ear, no distractions whatsoever!  Working dogs with a lot of red in their pedigree are wired to hunt and you need to  get that under control....often easier said than done.  

Brain work is the best thing to tire a working bred dog....challenging it and teaching it new things, providing it with new experiences.  Do you have access to game and land to train a working cocker on?  The gundog club you have found will help you, but if this is your first cocker and you are looking primarily for a dog to be an active family pet then I would look at show bred dogs.  There are good and bad temperaments in both show and working types.

Go and meet some show bred dogs.  Go to the gundog club and ask to visit a few handlers at home and learn how they keep/train their dogs.  Visit not just one, but MANY as there will always be the exception to the rule....the one who says 'oh, my pups parents are both Ftch and the pup sleeps all day and has 30mins on the lead around the block at lunchtime'.....yeh right.   The odd one gets 'lucky' (if that is what you want) but don't count on it!

Although my Gundog isn't purely working (dual purpose bred), she can be quite a handful. I agree so much with JRL's post with training and not just walking miles and miles. I throw in a longer walk every now and again, but on our normal shorter walks she has my full attention and we intersperse running about and enjoying the sniffs with periods of training, recall, stops etc with some fetching and seeking. I regularly call her back to me and send her away, to keep her on her toes. Luckily she is not overly prey driven and although enjoys a dash after a rabbit, it's not the be all and end all. On a good day she will recall off a chase and if she finds something horrible and dead she will now either leave or 'give' to me, that's taken quite a bit of work to achieve.
I only have a 'partial' working dog who spends most of the day awake ready to get that clever brain into some form of mischief if I don't watch out. Great fun, but exhausting at times.

>But I'm concerned I don't know enough about breeding to know what a "reliable" breeder is.

Re this:  The breeder should be able to tell you what the 'purpose/aim' of this particular was in the grand scheme of things.  It should not be merely about producing a litter to sell.

LIKE...Brainless

The working cockers I have seen are quite calm, certainly calmer than ESS. They do come in all shapes and sizes but solid black and brown is popular round me. Out of all the spaniels that live near me, show versions are in the minority. There are a couple of American cockers that are clipped off totally, apart from their heads it is almost impossible to tell what breed they are, but being nosey I asked the owner!

We have four working cockers, three of whom who work along with the flatcoats - from September to Feb they are out on shoots  from 9 to 5, and a lot of that time they  are going absolutely flat out - they don't have a natural stop button.     I adore them and just love to watch the natural talent which I have channelled with training during the summer months.

BUT - they certainly are busy.   And this can have undesired side effects.   As babies, they are quite good at leaping on work surfaces , and re-arranging your cooker.     Contrary to popular opinion, they are easy to house train if they come from a good breeder, and not just reared in a kennel.   Our main problem has been that they sometimes too busy to eat, which is the biggest worry.   Rather like us, when we come in tired from a good day out, we just get beyond eating.   

They do get calmer in the house when they reach about 18 months or so.   You do need a good sense of humour and not easily stressed out.

I do believe that cocker rage hasn't been seen in working cockers for many years, if at all.  

Jo

Sorry for resurrecting this but I'd love to know what the OP did & how she's getting on
  I've been investigating breeds & suitability vs lifestyle & experience since I PTS my 17 yr collie x last year.  I still have 8yr Elkhound entire bitch (will post on spay related  :-( unable to do as 2 x ovarian tumours 1 mammary - she doesn't know though).  
Amyway, as much as I adore Heidi, I want a dog that's needs more - she's just too patient & caring & tolerant & protective (in a great way) & cuddly with me - we're getting lazy.

I need to get a male as we had an awful time with bitch fighting a few years ago and I don't want to encounter that, in the home, again.
Heidi doesn't instigate fighting, I believe, she will fight back if needed, she'll also leave when I tell her and has always been gentle with rabbits cats - apart from garden invaders.
Back to dilemma of wrkg vs show - the fighting thing I wonder if show types are more resource guarders?  I want to 'try' to track/search/retrieve but not gun work (I'm squimish) things that I've played with my dogs over 35+ years with.  I want a chance to have a semiserious go with.  I work 4 days week, home about 50 mins lunch (activity time) don't go out evenings I work - or many others without dog.  I want a pup in next couple of months as great time to socialise and another pup in 1-2  years - after that it'll be older rescues...  This is really my last chance to have a brand new start and I want to get it as right as I possibly can.  I worry about health issues too.
  I've always had and read such useful things here.

> I still have 8yr Elkhound entire bitch (will post on spay related  :-( unable to do as 2 x ovarian tumours 1 mammary - she doesn't know though).   Amyway, as much as I adore Heidi, I want a dog that's needs more - she's just too patient & caring & tolerant & protective (in a great way) & cuddly with me - we're getting lazy.

This just goes to show how it really is 'one mans meat is another mans poison', or 'horses for courses'.

your reasons for wanting to change away from your Norwegian Elkhound are the exact opposite to what I wanted when I changed from what to me was a too needy breed to the Norwegian Elkhound as you describe over 20 years ago LOL :)

So I'm going to suggest the breed I first had the Belgian shepherd Groenendael (if you like shiny black) or a Tervuren if you like Red/Fawn in long coated or a show bred malinois (short coat), or if you can find one a rough coated Laekenois.

http://www.bsdaofgb.co.uk/  I loved my Goenendael girl dearly, but she was too needy and sensitive and high drive/herdy for my needs.

Pst, always fancied the laekenois.

I love the Tervueren - shiny coat - athletic - not overdone/exaggerated.  Aren't they a bit shy/nervous and need LOADS of socialisation?  I'm also thinking about what size of dog I can lift/carry if any injury a few miles from help.  You are tempting me though...

If Heidi is anything like typical of her breed then WOW she's an amazing companion - its just that for me, where I am, I don't have what it takes to work an Elkhound in the way I want to work with a dog.

I'd say not unlike the Border collie, but a bit less wired, maybe my 24 inch bitch weighed 50 pounds a male would weigh a bit more

OK - what about scaling down in size, and looking at the Norwegian Buhund?
A former herding farm dog, so good around livestock; not too big, lovely temperament and active but not as active as a working spaniel. Can and will take as much or as little exercise as you wish, but can also do things like agility, scentwork etc.  Healthy and long-lived. A much underrated breed, in my opinion.

A lot of people have had both Elkhounds and Buhunds with the Buhunds being more herdy and reactive.  the Finnish laphund might also suit

Border Collie hmm - many of my dogs have been at least mixes - GSDx Flat coat retriever x. Maybe it's a habit. I do want a smaller, real dog but not a fighter.
What do you think re working & show Cocker?  I've also looked at what's written about such breeds as Tibetan Terriers, Havanese, Polish Lowland but they're rare or worse....  I saw Havanese for £235  &£ 350 - usually £1000+   Caveat Emptor -buyer beware. Besides, I've got used to how easy Heidi is to clean all the mud off after walks - which is what most are - very muddy The
  Shaggy dogs look great but I prefer to spend more time out with dog than cleaning it. Ok Elkies moult like there's no tomorrow, but it's only twice/year - pretty easy other 10 months.

Working cockers can be quite full on and I would say need a fair bit of input. You don't ever need to so much as look at game to work a gundog- working tests are all on dummies, no live game. I am a bit biased but have a look at working golden retrievers, they are much lower maintenence than most working spaniel breeds, and aren't that big.

I really like the groens and tervs but I would agree with you that they definitely can be hard work, I wouldn't be brave enough for one!

The clumber spaniel is also a less manic, smaller gundog breed, I think field spaniels are absolutely cracking little dogs too. For scent work I think either would be a great choice.

Also like Welsh and I don't do Spaniels but regularly looked after several different Welsh Springers.  Do love Fields too, but they are like rocking horse poo.

Yes Welsh springers another good one :) much calmer in comparison to the WCS but very capable working dogs.
I'd still have a nice field boy over one though!
Oh also the Nova Scotia duck tolling retriever, great dogs. Need earplugs but great dogs lol.

> A lot of people have had both Elkhounds and Buhunds with the Buhunds being more herdy and reactive.

Still a good choice though, if the Spaniel temperament doesn't appeal.
I get that the OP wants an active dog, but maybe not too driven, and will fit in with existing livestock, and be good around the family and children. Yes Bu's can be barky and reactive, but so can Belgians (which were suggested before). Quite a few Belgian afficionados have Buhunds...

I meant that the Bu might be too much like the Elkhound (self reliant and chilled) as debbo seemed to want more lively.

I'm appreciating all your help/suggestions - thank you.
I'll look up Buhund further.  Lapphunds are often a breed recommended on selector sites - they look too full of coat for me Both these seem pretty rare too.  I have been toying/researching this for quite a while - say at least 8 months off and on.  I love all sorts of dogs - I've looked at Deerhound/lurchers in a serious way - too prey driven/too big?, thought of  malamutes & sleds too expensive/too big? I like big dogs but I want to take mine anywhere - at least two - cycling/walking then into a pub/cafe/shop.  My gardens not big but I have done little agility courses - jump/weave/tunnel for puppies including Elkhound before she seemed to only do it to please, not really wanting it, and cocker  of course, - no use for retriever. Due to work, if I have a needy dog, it needs to be small enough for this to be sufficient for midday/mental exercise.

> I meant that the Bu might be too much like the Elkhound (self reliant and chilled) as debbo seemed to want more lively.

More busy than that, if the Buhunds owned by the breeder I know locally, have visited and travelled to some shows with, are anything to go by. They are farm dogs, herders, watchdogs & vermin controllers originally, so do have a bit of energy about them :)

Very interesting thread.not looking for another dig but great to learn characteristics of the breeds from those that know. Always thought your eljies sounded great brainless

> Both these seem pretty rare too.

Truly rare, as opposed to advertised as such) as in not generally known and exploited is a positive benefit, easier to sort the wheat from the chaff..

Generally in numerically small breeds, as with the Elkhound (45 registered last year), all those breeding within the KC system tend to all tow the line re health testing etc, belong to their breed communities, and are either knowledgeable or if novice breeders supported and mentored by experienced ones.

So it's well worth going onto a  waiting list for a few months, a year of a breeder you can get to know in order to get a well bred puppy, bred for more than just wanting something to sell.

The same can be sais if you start sifting in the popular breeds, you'll be surprised how few producing puppies will actually breed to high standards, and such breeders often have a waiting list.

Obviously I am VERY biased , but I'd suggest Malinois as well. If you're going to Crufts, go and meet them in DD (I am doing the Saturday, and a dog I bred will be there Sunday), if you live anywhere near South Yorks/Lincs/Notts, you'd be welcome to come and meet my dogs at home.

I will never again have a Golden Retriever (have had them for 34 years, my last one is 11) due to much the same reasons as you want to change breeds -they are too easy.

Thanks for your kind offer.  I do like BSDs but   I really want a small dog, not a toy tho I love the look of such as Pappillon.  The cocker is ideal size, a proper dog but small, I know there's plenty of terriers similar sized but they tend to be feisty - a friend I walk with has a Border & I've read up about many of them.  I don't think they'd be any good as tracking/ scent dogs as they'd be off after rabbits.  I know spaniels can but are more trainable so long as they've a job to do. 
Brainless
I've been looking up Welsh - they're definitely worth thinking about.  I understand what you've said about health tests and waiting lists. I've taken note of required tests, I think someone on here put the link up. It seems working types don't tend to do them as much as show s do. 
I've also looked at English Springers as I've read they're less prone to aggression than cockers?  They're quite a bit bigger though..
Ah confusion

Show cockers have no aggression in my experience. As I said previously, they are known as "merry cockers" I breed and show them and there is not an ounce of aggression in my dogs. They love people and other dogs.

Ooh what about one of my favourites the Swedish Vallhund?

Didn't mean to offend.  There's such a lot of information 'out there' I find it difficult judging what to believe.

Do you work your dogs in any way?  I've already found a local gundog training club  - I know I've not even got a puppy yet ;-) just preparing.  As I don't know what I'm doing - field trial wise, I wondered if a working type would be best - like a collie that needs little training to herd - just guidance?  I'm not particularly competitive but would probably want to get to entry level (Stage 1/2?). 
Someone's mentioned having 1/2 worker/1/2 show - does that happen much?

You're working hard for the Spitz breeds :-)
I just don't think they're naturally trainable hunters - too independent thinkers.  I also like a more square dog - like Elkhounds!!

He he another Elkhound for a pup then LOL, though I think you'd get on with a Buhund, but the most usual colour has always put me off, I always preferred dark dogs over blondes. 

Unfortunately to me the Blacks look too much like the old fashioned Bristol Black (most usual mongrel in days before Staffie types predominated), and the Sables seem to be very odd coloured/patterned.

I got a Buhund last year after 40 years of Great Danes. He is a delightful dog. Loves his walks, very sociable, loves the cats, can herd the sheep in a fashion, very attentive when doing training, started flyball, seems to be a good tracking dog, great at letting you know when someone is coming to door. And he aspires to be a lapdog.
One downside is he guards a bit too strongly and has to be managed carefully with new people , but only IN the house. Outside he loves meeting new people and dogs.

Yes they are guardier for real more so than the elks which are more watchdogs but can't wait to lick to death strangers unless up to no good.

> One downside is he guards a bit too strongly and has to be managed carefully with new people , but only IN the house.

When i've visited my Buhund friend I've only noticed the wariness outside the house. Once in, I can barely stop them vying for who is going to get my attention!

I have read all the comments and think that the best dog for you is a health tested show cocker from a reputable breeder. they are the most loyal dogs you can get. Rage is an outdated problem if you go to the right breeder. Good luck in your search.

I don't think a dog of most breeds from >"working"< lines are suitable as pets, including cockers.
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