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Topic Dog Boards / Health / Rickets
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 25.10.14 17:16 UTC
Hello. Help!
I am an owner of a new whippet puppy who has been diagnosed with rickets. We've had him for 2 weeks. It was the end of the first that we realised his wrists were bending outwards. We've never owned a dog before and had no idea what was going on. We went to 2 different vets for opinions - the first one wasn't sure what it was and the second was absolutely certain and told us he'd had it since he was with the breeder. He looked at the photo of him that we took on the day we chose him.
The vet has advised 3 weeks of rest (we're finding this impossible!) plus additional calcium and chicken gravy to his Hill's science plan and said that he will make good recovery. So we have been doing this since the middle of this week and there is no progress.. I think it's getting worse. Maybe also because he pelts it around madly every now and then and is pretty unstoppable - I'm worried this can damage him further or hinder recovery.
Please please can anyone give me any advice? We adore the little fella and it's all incredibly stressful.
Thanks
Louby
- By Lacy Date 25.10.14 21:22 UTC
What have you been advised regarding three weeks of rest but would have thought it would mean caging or restricting to a pen.
- By JeanSW Date 26.10.14 03:08 UTC

> Maybe also because he pelts it around madly every now and then and is pretty unstoppable - I'm worried this can damage him further or hinder recovery.


I've had to restrict dogs over the years.  Get a crate big enough for him to turn round, but not run round.  It is up to you to ensure that the vets advice is carried out to the letter.  Take pup outside on a lead for toileting.

You are responsible for this dog.  Also, don't keep looking for progress when you have only just started his rehab.  Do not allow the pup chance  to spoil  his legs in the future.
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 09:38 UTC Edited 26.10.14 09:41 UTC
I have no experience of this but a couple of things come to mind.
Rickets a is nutritional deficiency including vitamin D. Does his food contain extra vitamin D ? or does it ? I know you are giving extra calcium but VIT D is important too lack of that is one of the main reasons for rickets to develop.
Is the breeder aware of what's happened as it would have started when he was still with them and should have been spotted I would have thougt although it may be hard early on and have they contacted other puppy owners not that that is your responsibility ? what is their view ? you have only had the pup a very short while and I can understand that you have decided to keep him. Are you confident that you vet is knowledgeable in treating this disease or would a 2nd opinion in a treatment programme be helpful.
Chicken gravy what are you using have you been given something special as human gravies often have too much salt.
Although he needs crate rest do make sure you continue socialisation carry him around to meet lots of different things. Fortunately as he is afairly small breed a baby sling might be helpful as he grows
I am sorry that this has happened to you especially with your first dog and hope you get a good outcome
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 09:49 UTC
Yes it does mean caging or restricting to a pen, the vet said. He becomes absolutely hysterical which is why it has been so difficult to keep him in it for long periods..we will have to make it smaller. We have upstairs neighbours too who we have to consider re noise. I don't know how we can do this for 3 weeks and what the long term psychological effects will be of caging him.

I need reassurance that it is going to work. I don't know long term physical effects.

We may have to return him to the breeder as we have been sold a defected puppy for a lot of money. We are within the 2 weeks of having him and possible return. I don't want to but my husband thinks it's the right thing. It totally breaks my heart.

This is our first experience of owning a dog and it's very traumatic.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 09:54 UTC
Thanks for your reply and your advice.
I couldn't help looking for progress because the vet had been so positive about the recovery if confined. However, I won't look for progress again or injure him further.
- By Harley Date 26.10.14 09:55 UTC
What has his breeder said about the problem the pup has? I would definitely contact the breeder and voice your concerns.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 10:09 UTC
Thank you so much for your response and your compassion. I'm at my wits end. Today is the deadline for taking him back and I don't know what to do. I don't want to give him back to the breeder as I don't believe he will be cared for in the right way, and of course we love him SO much. We're just now sure how we will cope with the next few weeks and if we are going to have future problems.

The breeders are KC assured and yes are aware of the diagnosis and have offered £100 of the £600 back but are trying to deny that it began with them.

I am confident that our vet is knowledgable about the disease.

I've been using homemade chicken stock not gravy as such. I think that is what the vet meant. Science plan has some vitamin D in it but I will check if it's the right quantity.

A baby sling is a great idea by the way as I can then work.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 10:21 UTC
The breeder wishes us well for the future and hope he improves. They said they brought him up on good food and basically can't be held responsible but offered £100 back. They say when he was vet checked at a few weeks old that there wasn't a problem with him. However, if you look at the photo of him at 5 weeks, the vet showed me he already swollen joints in his front legs.
I trusted them and the KC assured scheme and now feel utterly devastated.
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 10:45 UTC
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/baby-sling-carrier/321556693579?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D26947%26meid%3D80d226b9bdbc48eaaede5de80659152f%26pid%3D100005%26prg%3D11185%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D121464520209&rt=nc  this is the type of sling I find is great for dogs. I have carried gsd's in them for weeks .
with regard to the crating get yourself a dap diffuser for the rooms the crate is in and also try rescue remedy justa squirt on his food or his paws as I doubt he will like the taste. The other thing to consider is zelkene tablets all helpful for calming.
He may benefit from chewing some raw chicken carcass or bone. two reasons one the nutrition and two to keep him busy in the crate . Feed him by putting his food in a kong that will give him something to do while he is in the crate. you can stuff this with all sorts of things but if its extra food remember to reduce his ordinary meals as you don't want him to get fat.
Is he on complete crate rest or just restricted ? if so make the going to his crate nice , his bed for those puppy sleeps. When he is out play not bouncy ones but thing she has to think about. A little bit of training, going into a down maybe learning to crawl. things that don't put pressure on his joints.
I hope you were given kc insurance and that he is covered for his vets bills
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 10:49 UTC
Hi again furriefriends

I forgot to mention that I will definitely ask the breeders, in my next email to them, to see how the other puppies are doing and if there have been any other reports of rickets from this litter. I have a strong feeling that she will tell me they are all very healthy. I think it is my responsibility, having had this experience, to help stop it happening again.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 11:07 UTC
This advice is incredibly helpful and has taken some of the darkness out of the next few weeks.

Complete rest is what the vet ordered, he said to use a pen and crate. But because he's so lively and jumps up the side of the pen I am going to just use the crate which has plenty of room for him.

We have Petplan insurance through the breeder for 1 month. I don't understand if we are going to have future problems or not with our pup because of rickets in early age. Do you think we have caught it early enough to totally rectify? The vet said 100% turn around if we rest him and feed him well. But when he started getting worse in the first few days I freaked out. We are worried that our boy might be in pain and that we are going to have a lifetime of huge vet bills...from the very beginning. Our daughter and I are fighting to keep him but my husband is not so sure because of these factors.
- By Dill [gb] Date 26.10.14 11:29 UTC
So sorry this has happened to you.    And hope the breeder will be helpful.    What were they feeding the pup?   Was it a home made diet,  or well known puppy food?  

Is this covered by the 6 weeks insurance you should have had from the breeder?   If so,  it would be worth carrying on with the same insurer after the 6 weeks.   Otherwise you may not be covered by the new insurer ;-)

Info on rickets here

http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/musculoskeletal_system/dystrophies_associated_with_calcium_phosphorus_and_vitamin_d/rickets.html

What I don't understand is.,  if this problem is advanced enough to be able to be diagnosed visually,  why you haven't been prescribed supplements for the pup?

Regarding pup not liking being in the pen/crate,   have you tried warming his bed with a hot water bottle before putting him in?    Whippets LOVE warmth, so it's likely he'll settle easier if you warm his bed first :-)

And if it smells of you,  he'll be happier too,  so maybe an old jumper or t-shirt,  worn until it's picked up your scent will also help him settle in his  crate/pen ;-)
- By Schnauday [gg] Date 26.10.14 12:08 UTC
Sorry to hear you're having such problems with your new pup.

As Dill says it would probably be wise to continue your cover with Petplan. When starting a new policy there is normally a period of time, I think its 10-14 days from the start of the policy where you cant claim for any illness. So you would have to be starting a new policy 10-14 days before the Petplan runs out. Also new company my not cover for existing conditions.

Fortunately Petplan has a good reputation. I would phone them up before the breeder insurance runs out to explain the situation and make sure it can be continued just to make sure.
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 12:39 UTC
Good advise from dill, that was a lot of what I was trying to say too.
Definitely keep the insurance going now he has been diagnosed it will be hard to change anywhere else without exclusions or a complete refusal. As schnauday said petplan are very good infact imo one of the better ones  so keep going with it and vet bills should be covered. It is hard to say what may happen health wise in the future but I certainly wouldn't cancel any current insurance ,you are covered and it will help alleviate a financial burden . yes agree talk to petplan as well .
It does sound like the breeder will tell you all the other pups were  healthy so there isnt much you can do there ,I would use you thoughts and energy on your pup where you can help if you decide to keep him.
it might be worth getting in touch with one of the breed clubs for advice that is breed specific even if only to feel supported by people who know the breed. It isnt something that is expected in whippets or come to that any other. usually bought on by poor nutrition in the early days, I wonder what the breeder was feeding.
I don't know definitely but food I wouldn't expect to be laid down by the assured breeder scheme.
If you keep him and keep up with the calm and cage rest what you will have is a pup that will learn to settle on command if you are able to work at it which is alovely bonus :)
- By Harley Date 26.10.14 12:41 UTC
You need to make his crate the best place to be in so he associates it with wonderful things. Feed him in the crate and provide him with lots of interesting toys to play with in there. You could always try putting his meals in a Kong to keep him occupied. Make sure you put him on his lead when you take him into the garden for toiletting. I personally always take them out into the garden on a lead anyway when they are being housetrained as it takes away the opportunity for playing and they quickly learn that they are there for a reason - it also makes it much easier to reward them "performing" and helping them to understand the process :-)

Pups are hard work and full of energy so having to confine one to a crate can't be easy for any of you :-( 
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 12:47 UTC
https://www.facebook.com/notes/canine-health-dogs-vaccinations-what-vets-dont-tell-you/bone-broth-recipes/10152618004140985   bone broth recipes this might be of help too with your bone broth and btw when I said chewing bones I forgot to stress they must be raw no cooking what so ever then they are safe
- By Dill [gb] Date 26.10.14 14:54 UTC
"Diets with excessive amounts of calcium (three times normal concentrations) have caused rickets-like signs in growing Great Danes."

this is from the Merck link I gave.

It's possible that Rickets can result from adding calcium to the diet, as well as a lack of calcium.

The page also says that rickets can be caused by malabsorbtion of Vit D and/ or Calcium/phosphorus. 

From the Online Merck manual
"Treatment

Correction of the diet is the primary treatment for rickets. The prognosis is good in the absence of pathologic fractures or irreversible damage to the physes. If the animals are housed, exposure to sunlight (ultraviolet radiation) will also increase production of vitamin D3 precursors."
- By mastifflover Date 26.10.14 15:36 UTC

>his wrists were bending outwards.


How has the vet diagnosed this as Rickets and what type of Rickets? Rickets can be caused from a deficent diet or it can other causes (the bodies inability to use specific nutrients in the diet).

> He looked at the photo of him that we took on the day we chose him.


I do hope that wasn't a big part of the diagnosis.

HOD and wrist deformaties can all cause problems with the shape of the front legs and often over nutrition plays a key role in these (also the ratio of calcium:phospherous is extremely important, which is another reason why I hope your vet has correctly diagnosed this).

I am sorry you're going through this with your pup, I know how upsetting it is to see a pup with wonky front legs, but please make sure your vet has diagnosed this properly. To me, it sounds like he's chucked a label at the symptoms as any problem with the bones needs to be seen by an orthapedic specialist not a general vet.

My pups feet were turning out, a diet of restricted protein helped him sooo much in such a short space of time that he never needed the corrective surgery the vet was talking about.
I have my fingers crossed for you.
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 15:42 UTC
good point well made mastifflover and dill that was why I suggested second opinion especially as the things I read suggested more than a visual for diagnoisis
- By Dill [gb] Date 26.10.14 16:05 UTC
Absolutely, furriefriends,

I'd certainly want to identify the type of rickets, if that's what it is.  Since the particular type of rickets, and cause, determine the treatment.

Of course it's possible that this is something other than rickets, and will require other treatment.

Getting the right treatment is vital, if further problems are to be avoided.
- By Lexy [gb] Date 26.10.14 16:48 UTC

> The breeders are KC assured and yes are aware of the diagnosis and have offered £100 of the £600 back but are trying to deny that it began with them.
>
>


How much & this pup has rickets hmmmm!!!!
- By furriefriends Date 26.10.14 21:05 UTC
Would the kc have any interest if they are an.assured breeder. Its not a common condition. Although i must say if op is to keep pup his health correct diagnosis and treatment is first priority imo .I dont know the price of whippets is £600 high it varies so much breed to breed
- By Lacy Date 26.10.14 21:52 UTC
How long does it take for rickets to develop?
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 22:01 UTC
The 2nd vet diagnosed rickets immediately on meeting our puppy and it wasn't until later on when I showed him the photo that he pointed to the wrist of our chosen 5 week old pup and explained and showed that the paw was rotating in and wrist was swollen, even then. I am going to go back to the him tomorrow and ask lot's of questions. The vet was confident that diet change will be the solution. The first vet suggested a scan.
Thank you for all the help.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 22:05 UTC
Good point! I have no idea how long it takes to develop. The vet seemed to think that it started in our puppy from when he was tiny, maybe he didn't get enough of his mothers milk or the food after weaning??
I think our puppy is the runt of the litter. Maybe he just didn't get to the food in time.?
- By JeanSW Date 26.10.14 23:03 UTC
I'm another one who thinks the KC should know that a miserly £100 was offered by a breeder who is an accredited one.
That is just unbelievable, I would say laughable, but I'm disgusted that this breeder hasn't taken the pup back with a full refund.  I would expect a breeder to have at least some pride in their reputation.  (By the way, I do admit that I don't think £600 is a lot of money for a puppy.) 

However, the longer this has gone on, I fully understand that you have grown to love the pup.  Perfectly natural, as we all know on CD.  But you can bet your bottom dollar that the breeder knows this too. 
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 26.10.14 23:09 UTC
Thanks for all your suggestions etc. The breeders fed the litter on Ready brek and then science plan. They seemed very nice breeders and gave us a folder full of info about our puppy and his family tree etc
They were very helpful about all other questions I rang them about and then it all went odd re rickets.

Calcium was the only supplement that was prescribed by the vet, I am going to ask a lot more questions tomorrow and then maybe get a 3rd diagnosis if still worried or confused.

The crate is definitely a happy place for the puppy to be in at night until he wakes for a poo or wee, then he takes a while to go back to bed sometimes. I'm going to try rescue remedy.
It's the day time that's harder when he's being lively and I have to restrict him.
- By Goldmali Date 27.10.14 00:05 UTC
The breeders fed the litter on Ready brek and then science plan.

Do you know at what age they started Science Plan? Ready Brek is nothing but cereal and has absolutely no nutritional value for a growing pup at all -puppies need meat in one form or another.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 27.10.14 08:20 UTC
I'm not complaining about paying £600 for a puppy, I was fine with the price. It's not really to do with the money, more the principle of being ripped off. I could have taken the puppy back within 14 days for a full refund - yesterday was the deadline. But we were told that he can make 100% recovery from rickets by the vet, (there is no evidence of healing yet, only getting worse). We love him so much and just want him to get better.
The emotions with all this are confusing, and understanding what the right thing to do is too. Exhausted!
- By Brainless [gb] Date 27.10.14 12:31 UTC
Did you complete the form to the Kennel club about the service you had from the Assured breeder (feedback form).

I don't know what the vet thought he'd seen that he thought were swollen joints as all well boned pups will have plenty fo knuckle.  How amiliar is yoru vet wt puppy development.  Did your pup look any different to the toeh5rs.

This is generally an issue of nutrion (too much as well as too little ) and not something you'd expet with modern feeding (complete foods) or from an experienced breeer feeding more tradionaly asumg they have goo knowledge of nutrition.

Of course rarely an individual may have issues with absorbing nutrients.

Certainly if this ahs happened within days or two weeks of taking pup home as a breeder myself I'd be wanting pup back and sort the problem myself, as I would not be sure that new owner had sufficient knowledge.

Also pre existing conditions or those apparen5t within two weeks are generally excluded of insurance claims.

Really this pup should go back t the breeder.

I myself have never had litters vet checked, but advise new owners to take pup to their vet within first few days, and if anything is found that renders a pup unsuitable for sale as a pet (excluding digestive upset that might be due to change of water/diet/travel) then a full refund will be given on return of the puppy.

Unless all pups leave within a day or two of the vet check on a litter, it is next to useless as in this case (but it is something new the ABS insist on, but I can't see how it is going to work unless there is a set formula/criteria/age for the vet checks).
- By Brainless [gb] Date 27.10.14 17:11 UTC Edited 27.10.14 17:17 UTC

>Maybe he just didn't get to the food in time.?


Most breeders will always fed pups to appetite giving a bit more than the pups will eat at mealtimes so no-one will ever not get a chance to feed, Mum then clears up the left overs.

What age was the litter vet checked by the breeder?

If the type of food fed by the breeder was appropriate and al other pups were fine then the b4reer will not have been at fault with the rearing, and it may be that the pup lacks something to absorb nutrients properly and the problem is only becoming apparent as he grows.

Unfortunately some problems may not be obvious at the time of weaning or sale, and develop slowly, but you say your vet noticed a problem right away, so pup should have been taken straight back to the breeder.

If a problem has been identified this soon then the breeder should have taken pup straight back.  What did the puppy contract say on this point if a problem was found?
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 27.10.14 19:34 UTC
The litter was vet checked at 8 weeks.. a week before we got him.
Early on we asked to be able to pick up our puppy at nearly 9 weeks old because we were holding a big party for our daughter's 18th.. OMG! I've just had a horrible realisation... the breeder rang me just after the vet check and pleaded that we come earlier because otherwise the mother might eat our puppy if he's the last one left! I think I'm paranoid.

We were given 2 weeks to take him back (ended yesterday), they didn't offer to help when I told them the problem, they offered £100 back, and due to the diagnosis being rickets we wanted to definitely make sure he is getting the right diet. We don't want to send him back. we want this puppy that we love to be healthy.

I don't know how the other puppies are. Is there any point in asking?

Yes the vet knew straight away. I alerted the breeder straight away. He also looked at earlier photo of him and confirmed that he had it earlier in his life before we had him. My vet is going to write a report.
I don't understand why the breeders vet didn't pick up on it. Our vet said that our puppy is otherwise healthy.
Today I took him to the vet again today.. he said there is improvement on his left front leg but not right, yet. This must mean that the diet change plus calcium/Vit D/phos tablets are working which must mean he can absorb nutrients ok.?

I think i am going to ask the breeder to choose a vet near to me for a 3rd diagnosis as they don't believe the puppy had a problem before leaving them.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 27.10.14 19:36 UTC
caging and pen sometimes
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 27.10.14 19:38 UTC
I ordered the sling so hopefully I will get it tomorrow or the next. I also got the rescue remedy and dap diffuser. Thanks for those tips
- By Goldmali Date 27.10.14 20:02 UTC
This is generally an issue of nutrion (too much as well as too little ) and not something you'd expet with modern feeding (complete foods) or from an experienced breeer feeding more tradionaly asumg they have goo knowledge of nutrition.

Exactly, which is why I would like to know how long the breeder fed the pups on just Ready Brek before moving on to actual dog food! It makes no sense at all to wean pups onto just cereal.
- By Goldmali Date 27.10.14 20:04 UTC
the breeder rang me just after the vet check and pleaded that we come earlier because otherwise the mother might eat our puppy if he's the last one left!

Seriously? They weren't just joking? This does NOT sound like a good breeder to me, or a breeder with any kind of knowledge at all! Also why did they breed a litter at all if they weren't keeping a pup, did they not get one good enough?
- By Brainless [gb] Date 27.10.14 20:27 UTC
and I must apologise for the typos/missing letters,
- By Brainless [gb] Date 27.10.14 20:33 UTC
I certainly would be completing the Assured Breeder Feedback form, for the Kennel Club, (how can they police things unless they get feedback) with a copy/details of the vet check they had done.

Certainly doesn't see that the requirement for a vet check has helped in this case.

I sometimes feel that far from helping the ABS scheme may be lulling puppy buiye5rs into a false sense of security.

As for the KC accolades I think perhaps the ABS listing should always have the number of litters bred by a breeders name, and over what period of years. This way a buyer can ascertain the breeders level of experience in years and numbers.  The frequency of breeding will also aid them in deciding if it is the kind of breeder they wish to support.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 28.10.14 08:07 UTC
The 2nd vet diagnosed rickets immediately on meeting our puppy and it wasn't until later on when I showed him the photo that he pointed to the wrist of our chosen 5 week old pup and explained and showed that the paw was rotating in and wrist was swollen, even then. I am going to go back to the him tomorrow and ask lot's of questions. The vet was confident that diet change will be the solution. The first vet suggested a scan.
Thank you for all the help.
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 28.10.14 08:13 UTC
Yes I will complete the Assured Breeder pack for KC.

The breeder has been breeding for many years. There were 5 adult whippets round the back that I didn't see. We met the dam and this was her first litter.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 28.10.14 09:20 UTC
What sort of diet sheet did you get, indication of what pups were being fed?

If a problem was so evident, how did the breeders vet miss it (did you see the vet report for the pup?)
- By mastifflover Date 28.10.14 09:53 UTC

>The first vet suggested a scan.


Curious as to why you then looked for a different vet for a second opinion when you never even got a diagnosis from the first vet - only the most sensible course of action in order to properly diagnose what is going on.

> Allthough an amazing talent and far, far cheaper than diagnostic tests, xrays and scans, how on earth can he be SURE that he is guessing at the right diagnosis by saying rickets because he can see wonky legs???


I know a lot of people are moaning about the breeder here, but in order to be able to prove the breeder is a fault, the fault with the puppy needs to be proved. I'd personaly go back to the first vet and get the scan(s) done.

There is a myriad of things that can a) cause the puppies leg to be deformed and b) to cause the wrists to be swollen.
Here are just a couple of alternative possible causes of your pups wonky legs:
Elbow displasia (severe elbow deformitiy will be push the bones of the forelegs out of alignment and make them bend, in turn pushing the wrists at the wrong angles)
Premature closure of the growth plates due to to injury.
Premature closure of the growth plates from as an inherited problem.

I would really love to know how your vet can rule out these (and any other possible problems) by a visual examination only?

You must have collected pup from the breeder around 11th Oct.
You must have seen the second vet around 22nd Oct, who advised 3 weeks cage rest, calcium and chicken gravy.
You saw this vet again on the 27th - why so soon? What else has this vet said? Why has s/he now given calcium/phosperous/vit D tablets, when 5 days prior (and prior to these things being mention on this forum) he advised calcium and gravy?

Did you take your pup for an initial vet check & to be registered with a vet within the first few days of collecting him, if so, was this the vet that wanted to do a scan on your pup?

>Today I took him to the vet again today.. he said there is improvement on his left front leg but not right, yet. This must mean that the diet change plus calcium/Vit D/phos tablets are working which must mean he can absorb nutrients ok.?


We can guese at any diagnosis, nobody, not even the vet, will know if it's correct or not without doing any tests or diagnostic imagery................... Maybe somebody dropped him and 1 leg is healing faster than the other, maybe he was doing too much running around before perhaps with lots of over-walking  and being rested has allowed his soft, growing skeleton a chance to even out.... Who knows? I would go back to the first vet and pay for the scans.

I do hope your second magic vet is right though. It would be much better for your pup if a few, cheap, vitamin tablets is all it takes to sort him out from rickets, rather than another developmental problem/injury that, if not treated properly, will lead to arthritis, pain and impaired mobility.................

I hope you get on well at the vets tomorrow. What time is pups appointment?
- By loubylloyd [gb] Date 28.10.14 18:52 UTC
Did you take your pup for an initial vet check & to be registered with a vet within the first few days of collecting him, if so, was this the vet that wanted to do a scan on your pup?
Yes and yes this was the vet who offered the scan/x-ray. My husband took the puppy there 1 week after we collected him and the vet said she wasn't sure what was going on with his leg. She said if you want an x-ray you can have one for £200. At this point, the pup's right elbow was shaking and sort of 'knuckling looking' (I looked on internet)-which is why we took him. The vet said it wasn't injured because he was putting weight on it and there was no pain.
I spoke to the breeder about this and she was concerned and said she hadn't heard of knuckling had had to google it. Then she said he definitely wouldn't have that and said that he mustn't run on hard surfaces - (as we have wooden floors) which was good advice.

The reason I went to a different vet 3 day's later is because 1)the symptoms got worse - both legs started bowing out, 2) the 2nd vet was close to my work and had been recommended by a friend who has been to him for over 30 years with her various rescue dogs, and 3) my husband thought it would be worth getting another opinion first before paying for an x-ray as the 1st vet was quite vague and he didn't feel he could trust her. Also, don't forget we'd had the puppy for only 1 week and this was quite a shock to have to pay out this amount so quickly. If she had said that he 'should' have an x-ray we might have done it. 4) The breeder said that the 1st diagnosis couldn't be right.

I saw the 2nd vet again, embarrassingly impatiently just 5 days after because the legs had got worse instead of better even though I  had given him the correct prescribed diet and Calcium, Vit D/Phosphorous tablets and I thought there should have been improvement already. Actually there was - a small one.

Yes it's awful to think or suggest that it could be the breeders fault.. it's a horrible feeling and dangerous to point fingers. I spoke to them today and they said they will take him back for a full refund. Obviously, we want our pup to get better rather than do this.
I didn't suggest money back but I did ask if they knew of a vet, or their vet knew of one they could recommend near to us in London.  I could take my puppy to for 1 last consultation because they don't believe the diagnosis being rickets, or knuckling. I asked if they might pay for that. They weren't willing to do this. Maybe I will get an x-ray done instead and go from there. I will probably go to the 2nd vet for the x-ray as it felt like the right place.

Thanks for all your advice. This forum is really helping.
- By Brainless [gb] Date 28.10.14 21:16 UTC
I just can't understand if the breeders vet passed the pup at 8 weeks (so assume only days before you had him) you didn't notice anything wrong on collection, how the pup could be so obviously unfit for sale.

From the breeders point of view they are right to want the pup back for a full refund and you can't really expect a refund and to keep the puppy, so offering you something back was a 'good faith' gesture.

So I can't see the breeder being at fault if they relied on their own judgement and their vet that they sold a fit healthy puppy.

Knuckling over is a common enough term used by 'dog people' to describe what happens when a dog/pup has -pasterns that are too straight and if they stand with their food too far under the body you get this shake and if the joint opens then it looks almost like it's broken.

I wouldn't expect any sight hound to be too  straight in pasterns, but many breeds are inclined to be rather straight as it often gives a more on their toes stance.

This piece explains why straight pasterns are a fault from a working point of view: http://www.thehuntinglife.com/forums/topic/210628-straight-pasterns/  though I assume your pup was destined to be a pet not a coursing dog.  Equally pasterns with too much bend (weak or broken down) cause problems, and can often be down to nutrition in a puppy, or just wear down in a very old dog..
- By Dioklis [gb] Date 06.11.14 21:46 UTC
Is there an update on this pup?  I see a 12 week old blue whippet pup has been handed in to Scruples with rickets just wondered if there was a connection?
Topic Dog Boards / Health / Rickets

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