We are the proud owners of a 4 month old white husky. He's a hand full too. I guess we have been doing a lot of the wrong things. Playing tug of war etc. which as of today is no more. He has a couple of real bad habits that need to be addressed. He is constantly biteing our clothing and tugging on us, he chews or hands and arms a little to hard sometimes. When we scold him or push him away he comes right back. He does things he knows he shouldn't do and only stops when we make a move to correct him and then he starts all over again. The mouthing is out of hand, my skin being rather thin, and it sometimes looks like I've fallen into briar patch. Help !

Hi Zabro,

Have you tried yelping really loudly everytime he does it? That worked for my pup!
Obviously you've tried a 'NO' in a growly voice. Or you could try diverting his attention by playing with a toy. Failing that if my pup keeps doing something when I've told him 'NO' out comes the plant water spray (nozzle turned so it's a jet of water rather than a spray). He soon finds something else to play with, now I only have to pick the bottle up then he grabs a toy and brings it over to me :)

Edited because it didn't make sense.

Sent you an e-mail by mistake, wasn't aware that I should reply here. Thanks for your help we will give them a try., ZABRO

I agree with Zoe, yelping or just saying "ouch" in a really hurt voice is the only way for him to learn what he can bite or not.
Its how pups teach eachother as well.
Soon he will learn that hands cannot be handled the same way as his toys!! :)
I reallly hope it will work for you, as it can become quite a problem with a big dog like that.
We actually made a point with our GSD to teach her the "drop" or "give" command after being told off by the vet on our very first
visit with our puppy. She was 12 weeks then and he said she should not be allowed to bite hands.
We still thought it was cute then and she was just teething, like you said, playing tug of war is fun!!
But I guess especially with dogs as big as these will grow up to be, we need to take control early! :)

Hi I have a 4 month ESS who is very bouncy, he also play bites when he gets excited but I shout "ouch" when he does this and he pulls away and wiggles. He is not as bad as he was so it does work.

Thanks a lot, will try it..Zabro

He could be interpreting you pushing him away as playing so he's coming back for more so I'd stop that!
Fold your arms out of the way and tuck your hands under your armpits so he can't get them. Ignore him and when he jumps up at you turn away quickly so that he is presented with your back and can't grab your sleeve! Don't look directly at him and catch his eye just ignore him.
He's a little too young for *knowing he shouldn't do things* and his concentration span will be very short so you need to be consistent and patient with him. He's only a baby - and he NEEDS to chew! so provide him with lots of different chewy things and toys to keep him occupied and distracted. Don't leave them all lying about at once but keep them rotated and changed often so he is interested.
Follow the other advice you have been given if he does start to bite hard by a loud 'OUCH' or similar. This teaches your puppy how much pressure you will tolerate so he can learn his limitations. This is a bit controversial now but I still consider it sound advice rather than totally preventing mouthing as it's important to teach bite inhibition early on. It may save you a nasty injury later!
Lara

Thanks for the input, ..Zabro

Zabro,
we were also given the same advice about yelping or shouting "ouch" . It seems to work as the others have mentioned - pups mouthing has lessened a lot . We also distract him with a toy too if he gets too over excited - offereing him the toy when he doesnt seem to take any notice of "NO" .
We were also advised to ignore him when things got too bad .
It will stop with time
Lel

Hi , If you would like to see my reply to angry puppy I think you will find the same answer will be of help to you as well.

Just to say I totally agree with Lara's advice, esp. about the pushing the pup away gets them more excitee, and also about gradually getting them to stop mouthing: as she says, that is a bit controversial, but the idea is that the pup learns to understand bite inhibition and the power of its own jaws.

Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,
It is not a case of a bit controversial. Puppy mouthing and biting is a game you do not play. To teach a dog that it is allowed to bite but only at a certain pressure is a very dangerouse game. You must never allow or teach a dog to bite at all. A small dog bites at a very low poundage but never the less hurts from the sharp teeth. GSD's bite at about 300 to 400 pounds per square inch and a Pit Bull at over 1500 pounds per square inch. If you refer to Police dogs or Working Trials dogs there is no agression in their training it is only to retrieve a sleeve. The paper work involved by a police dog handler who has detained a criminal using his dog undergoes investigation to confirm that using the dog was necessary, appropriate and was not excessive force. No one has a licence to allow a dog to bite.

I'm very happy that my dogs know exactly how hard to hold my hand when they lead me anywhere - usually to the back door when they want to be let out! When we get home and they greet us, another will very gently hold my little finger in his mouth while the rest of my hand strokes his face. There's no way I'd try to stop them doing that. If a dog hasn't learnt "bite inhibition" ie how hard to hold, I would consider it a dangerous dog.

Just my opinion.

Hi Jeangenie

I am sorry but the times that has been used as a defence. You know to leave your hand and not pull away but I ask you what may happen if you jurked your hand away. Children do that instinctively so can you afford to take that risk. I know I could not.

The difference between "bite" and "contact" with dogs is the same as the difference between "beating" and "slap" when referring to chastising children! A good retriever must retrieve to the hand - and this requires contact between the mouth of the dog and the hand of the owner. Therefore your statement that this "should never be allowed" is evidently untrue.

Forbidding contact between a dog's mouth and a person's skin is, in my opinion, unneccessary and wrong. We shall have to agree to differ.

Edited for grammatical accuracy.

You have your opinion on bite inhibition - and I have mine! As they are not the same THAT's what makes it controversial :)
I always raise an eyebrow at the statistics on bite pressure per square inch. Don't know where they come from but bite pressure depends on the individual dogs strength of jaws - not on breed! Some dogs jaws are bigger - so what! I tend to disregard them :)
Working trials dogs do not need aggression this is true - I see you participate. But police dogs do - that is why some working trials dogs despite being trained on the sleeve would not make suitable police dogs. Aggression is a necessity - it is what enables a police dog handler to be able to confront an angry mob/riot etc.. with confidence in the dog and its ability to protect its handler through aggression. This is not prey drive - this is DEFENCE! You don't require it - I do!
You are correct about the paperwork - but police and prison dogs are annually licenced and biting is a requirement. If the dogs fails to bite on an annual assessment then no licence is granted and the dog is withdrawn from service immediately.
Lara x

Hi Lara,
You are saying that is fine for your dogs to nibble your fingers and pull you about holding your hand. You say that a dog knows just the right amout of pressure to apply to you as their owner who is not apprehensive of your dogs. So can you guarantee to me that a child could come into your house and be given the same greeting is safe knowing the normal reaction of children? You feel that this is the correct technique to promote to others who have dogs that nibble owners hands. I have no interest if you are accidently hurt if one of your dog gets it wrong one day. I am though very concerned at the figures of attacks on children by accident or by intention and I would always remain on the side of caution to ever promote your technique and certainly not to promote this to the Wild child question. I do not have one piece of documentary evidence to support your technique but a considerable amount of case law that would condem it.

I can only say well said alannewmanmoore
I could not have put it better

I think you are referring to me, Jeangenie, and not Lara.

However, I greet my family members in an entirely different way to how I greet strangers. Equally, my dogs greet family (pack) members differently to how they do strangers. I do not promote finger nibbling as a correct way - I promote it as an acceptable way within the pack. I can guarantee that a child coming into my household is "safe" from this behaviour because they are not of our pack, in the same way that I will personally greet them in a more formal manner.

All I am saying is that it is not dangerous if a dog touches a human with its mouth.

Dear Alan,

Does a guide dog "pull you about" (your words) or "lead you" (my words)?

Aren't semantics a wonderful thing?

Dear Jeangenie

Dogs for the blind help blind people navigate their environment and use a special harness as well as being a very special companion. Your dogs "lead you" (your words) with their teeth.

And your point is....?

Please be nice to each other and allow the other persons POV ...I would hate to see this thread locked as it has some very useful advice in it :)

Agree to differ , shake hands and make friends ;)

Mel :D

Fine by me! :) :)

Well I wasent looking to fall out in the first place .
I just think it is best to discourage any type of nibbling , look at this way if the dog was playing and did it and some one got a puncture however small where would that let you and the dog.Not arguing just my op
Cant be too careful :)
Mari

Dogs for the blind help people around by a harness .............yes! But some dogs for the disabled do a lot more for their helpless owners including using their mouths and the importance of bite inhibition is mentioned here

HI Alan

To be honest i feel this is a case of owners wanting and needing the same thing, but going about it in a different way :) Puppy mouthing and biting is not a game - except to the puppy. They have to learn what is acceptable, but IMO this is best done slowly, and gradually.

It may be useful to hear your suggestions on stopping a pup mouthing, do you feel it must be stopped from day 1?

For example, i have a very excitable, reactive Terv bitch - her temperament is quite normal for her breed. I taught her that when she nipped the "game" ended, possibly she was put out the room, or I left her alone. She didnot stop nipping at once, but by the time she was 20 weeks. I also taught her gentleness with tuggies and toys, in that if her mouth touched me the game ended. But again i did this over weeks rather than days, as I wanted her to really understand what she was doing with her mouth, and that even a slight brushing of her teeth accidentally agianst human skin wasn't acceptable.

I have never allowed pups to mouth and then gradually toned it down, but on the other hadn Ian Dunbar did this very successfully with pups and he recommended this in his classes and had no problems :) He is as you may know a world renowned behavourist so he must know something ;)

I understand your concerns but feel a safe dog is best produced by learning bite inhibition.Many people do share this opinion. Lara's illlustration of her friend falling down stairs and landing on her dog shows how safe it is :)

By the way, I too am involved in Working Trials (with my Terv) :) so may see you somewhere this year!!!

Best wishes
Llindsay

Hi Lindsey,

I have no problem with owners who do attempt to stop dogs mouthing or nibbling as it is part of the hunting game. What ever speed it is cured is fine so long as it is cured. We had a 5 year old nibbled by a dog we knew was a potential problem and the child ran away finger bleeding chased by the dog. In front of the mother the dog attacked and tore the childs face clean off and continued to bite the child all over the place. You could not recognise the child. The child died the owner band for 5 years from owning a dog and a fine of £500. Justice????? The defence was if the child had stood still the dog would only have mouthed the fingers like it did with the owners family. The Judge repeted something said many times before children can be children dogs cannot be dogs. I never want anyone to witness a sight like that ever again. Its still happening.

I am trying to do the same as John Rogerson in setting up working trials in America, I am setting them up in Spain for the English, Spainsh and Germans but only for fun but based on KC rules. I only go round the English circuite now to meet up with old friends and watch them work. Last trial I came to see was Ollerton.

I wish you loads of luck. Having a dog work with you as a team is a feeling I cannot discribe but it is very addictive. I do miss having had a good nose work day then, sat in the back of my van, sharing out the ginger nuts with my dogs. Very good days indeed.

Hi Alan,
Of course nothing should ever happen such as the attack on a child in your posting. Nobody condones anything like that. What caused the child's finger to bleed in the first place? My first thought would be that the dog had not been taught "bite inhibition" at all, and therefore had no idea of its own strength. To follow up with a serious attack implies, to me, that the dog was either completely untrained (and therefore not safe) or mentally unbalanced - and equally unsafe.

To put the other side of the coin - there was a housefire in the town where I lived some years ago. The owner was saved by their dog who took her hand in her mouth and led her to safety. That is what I call proper "bite inhibition" - the use of the mouth without causing damage.

What we all want is sensible, fun dogs (and owners :)) who are safe to have around and yet are still dogs.

Thanks for the good luck Alan, I'm not as experienced as you having only started WT training last year, but we (dog and me) are enjoying every minute and it certainly does build up the relationship. My bitch is very athletic and has a good nose, so I have hopes for her, but whatever happens we are enjoying ourselves :) and keeping fit in the process, can't be bad!!!

I hope the American and Spanish projects get lots of interest, I have a lot of respect for John Rogerson. He's a "good egg" LOL!

My view is that a puppy trained to understand bite inhibition will have stopped biting by the time it is adult, so the training will have the same effect as a pup trained to stop more quickly, but, if for any reaosn the dog is shocked or bites accidentally, it will be inhibited and not a full on bite.

I feel the poor child you mention was a victim of an irresponsible owner whose dog was out of control, any dog who actually rips off a child's face and actually continues biting has not learnt bite inhibition. God only knows what happened there - but a dog taught inhibition just would not do that unless it had a brain tumour or similar. I suspect the owner knew the dog ws a problem but either didn't bother or did'nt care :

best wishes#
Lindsay

Hi Lindsay,
I do wish you well in Trials do have fun.

Oh behalf of the Wild Child question and you respect John will you please except his teaching and I quote
" Lots of owners end up with some of the more serious problems with their adult dogs simply because they allowed them to to think that play biting and nipping were acceptable whilst they were still puppies".
He finishes " The rule you have to establish right at the start is that your puppy must not bite your fingers, or any other part of your body for that matter".

There is no writer, trainer, instuctor behavourist who write in favour of Bite Inhibitation. They all write not to allow this and all follow the views of John. I suggest to Wild Child they search for any support for such training because I cant find any and have never heard of it until I came on this site the other day.

Not wanting to start a fight, I was checking through my dictionary, and I find that "bite" is defined as wounding, cutting, puncturing or piercing with the teeth.

"Inhibit" is defined as restrain, prevent, hinder, check, or stop.

Therefore "bite inhibition" is teaching a dog not to puncture with their teeth. We all want them to learn that, don't we? :)

Alan I think in a way we are talking at cross purposes :) as teaching bite inhibition doen'st allow a dog to think it is OK to bite or nip - not at all :) and I have to say I have seen some bad results from rough play fighting too (with people).

Teaching a pup slowly (and there is usually a very marked improvement by age 20 weeks) just teaches it to be safer IMHO :)

Lindsay

Hi lindsay,

You say you have great respect for John Rogerson yet you ignore his words or If I were to quote Roger Mugford or David Appleby or anyone else it will make no difference. You cannot give me any authoritive support for your theory. You cannot quote me any sensible writing that includes this and yet you are prepared to stand up and teach people something that experienced dog people condem.

If I give any authoritative reply I just get a diiferent tack or splitting of hairs and semantics yet you seem totally blisfully unaware of the danger you do and promote. I spend so much time with the EU to try to reduce dog aggression throught Europe and to curb the use of enforcement training using chokers. It is an uphill strugle to fight old established concepts and untrained personal views.

When you do become more experienced and meet Very experianced people, as you will do in working trials, then maybe and I do hope your attitued will change.

My concern is that those who ask for help on this site believe you as having some authoritative point of view and those that follow you could end up hurting children giving as a defence they were following your guidlines.

One of the current submissions before the EU is that all major dog attacks are mainly caused by big dogs so the logic is to phase out all big dogs. If we do not show we wish to contol our dogs correctly and curb dog aggression and dog attacks then the government will take over. As a father if I could see into the future and knew it was my child that will become the next attack statistic then for all my love of dogs they could not get this on the statute book fast enough. I ask you to try to imagine your feeling if it were your child attacked would you still stick to your views.

I am certain you will have an answer to this too so this string is at an end. I have seen enough and fully understand why my very experienced contemporary's have such a disapointment. If I could I would place a sign beware all yee who enter here. I hope those who control this site will take note of my comments and just think of the possible consequences.

Self help is fine so long as it is not the blind leading the blind.

Admin Edit: terms of service

Hi alannewmanmoore

No one person holds the monopoly on dog training and behaviour. We are learning new theories and techniques all the time. It is not wise to maintain a blinkered approach in this field as you may miss out. Who knows who is up and coming!! You may be quoting Lindsay herself one day - who knows lol.
Here and here is some reading for you to enjoy since you haven't seen any. If I can pull that out of a search engine in a couple of seconds then so can you!
No one wants to see child attacks. You describe a frenzied attack - bite inhibition or lack of it doesn't come into the equation. There will always be the odd 'rogue' dog about that will 'turn' like that regardless. It is not the norm. I'm sure even you can appreciate this.
If you ever get bored one day go and sit in the back of a courtroom and listen to the absurdness of some of the excuses that come out in peoples defence! I've spent many a time chewing the inside of my lip to prevent myself laughing out loud. Some people are capable of saying anything to try and get them off the hook!
Lara x

What excellent links, Lara :) Very informative.

I agree, excellent links and good reading, thanks Lara :)

Lindsay

I share Lindsay's view on bite submission, in other words, teaching a dog to use a soft mouth.

When my puppy wakes up or is snuggled, she likes to gum my fingers. No pressure whatsoever. Her action is pacifying to her and in my view there is nothing wrong with it. I expect when she stops teething she will stop gumming. She has the softest mouth when it comes to accepting treats as well, she has never once snapped.

When playing, the instant she moves from holding a finger in her mouth to putting pressure on that finger she is told NO. In fact, usually before that point I distract her with something acceptable, such as a toy. As a consequence, she uses her mouth in play less and less over time. The moment she graps clothing, like pant legs, all action stops.

This method has worked for me with terriers, GSDs and mixed breeds. As adults, none of them ever put teeth to human flesh, not even to mouth.

The point is that biting behaviour is gradually extinguished, not that biting is ever condoned. The goal is the same, but by gradually extinguishing the behaviour, rather than forbidding any contact between puppy mouth and human flesh full stop, the dog learns to use a soft mouth along the way.

Stacey

Exactly Stacey. I'm not at all bothered if anyone disagrees because we all have our beliefs, but I am not too happy about Alan's inference of this method being dangerous, because as those wno use it (such as yourself) will confirm, it's not :)

Lindsay

Alan, let's discuss instead your view on how to stop pup nipping, or mouthing. I am interested to know how you would do this.

Also, with respect you do not know my background, or my behavioural knowledge. No, i am not nearly an expert, but have shadowed experienced, reputable behaviourists and also tried to expand my knowledge by doing behaviour courses and attending seminars and lectures at which there are all sorts of well known behaviourists. John Fisher is my "hero", but even he was a big enough man to change his own views :)

I have said Ian Dunbar supports bite inhibition, and he is the b. I have specific info on. He is world renowned.

I can only repeat that bite inhibition does not encourage a dog to bite, it cannot. I still feel you do not understand the ocncept, it isn't a matter of splitting any hairs.

I have met many WT people, and some are frankly in the dark ages, and some are brilliant and have great skill like Joyce Stranger, (although she isn't involved in the trials scene at the moment)- a bit like people generally involved with dogs, really!!!

I don't expect you to agree, not at all - but either we discuss, or not. Its not a problem, but i would still like to know your preferred way of stopping puppy biting :)

Lindsay

Hi lindsay,
Non of us have preffered methods. First of all non of us want dogs to play bite or mouth. First of all we would say to the owners to simply say no get up and walk away. If the owners still cant do that and it depends how bad it has become if the dog gets pushed away and comes back with vengence. If it is getting out of hand I know Roger likes a taste deterrent as one way David Appleby if it has got this bad to teach the word command of "off" using a titbit. Roger Mugford for bad cases suggests the harmless airspray can the Pet persuader or in really bad cases gas collars. It all depends on each dog and the owners and their children and the reasons behind the dogs game as in somecases it can be fearfull nibbling or dominance based. In all cases the aim is to stop it all togther and as soon as possible because of the potential dangers. Me I just assess the dog like everone else and use which ever method is deemed suitable and appropirate to stop it the quckest without inflicting pain or apprehension.

I have done this a few times to my dog and my cat! It is a bit disgusting, but everytime the dog puts your hand in its mouth, stick your fingers down the back of his throat (not too far) just far enough to gag him, and as you know it is not nice, that may stop him!

My dog also was a bit naughty, he would jump up everyone, so whenever he did anything I did not want him to, I would just turn around and walk the other way, and if he followed I would shut the door, and then return with a minute or so. He shoud soon learn that when he does naughty things, everyone ignores him and he does not get the attention he is seeking! Logical really!