I had entered the WFT for a Champ Show in Minor Puppy Bitch yesterday but obviously  because of her "delicate" condition (hardly delicate,  rampant more like) I went to the show without her.  There was such a small entry for most classes that people were getting thirds when there were only three in the class which presumably entitles them to go to Crufts.  In Sophie's  class there was only one entry LOL as the other dog had pulled out too.  So the owner got to go Crufts as she won a class where there was only one dog!!!  How often does this happen?  So if Sophie had entered she would have got a second and (presumably) been able to go  to Crufts!!  We missed out there!

For the short time I showed my sheltie there were always huge breed entries so I suppose you stand more of a chance with a less popular breed!

Yep that's how it works!

We have the same in WT. Classes are rarely above 5 dogs/bitches unless it's crufts in which case everyone who qualified goes - because it's crufts. I would say you'll probably see that around a bit in your breed too.

I missed a load of my first shows because mine came into season.  Was right poor timing!

In my breed with low registrations (this means there are only very few new dogs being shown in any year) this has been a problem for a few years now, most of the entry are in Open, and with a breed with a long show life many are veterans!

Yesterday was our Scottish championship show and there was one puppy dog on his own in al the lower dog classes and the only class with more was Open, no Post graduate or Limit dogs.

In bitches there were two's and threes in lower classes.  Fortunately for the poor lone dog pup, he was Reserve Best Puppy In Show so he did get to beat some puppy bitches.

It's actually just as disheartening when the numbers are low as when they are very high.  Especially if you have a nice exhibit and your always on your own or second out of two, because the other is more forward, well handled etc.

I do think grading would be a good idea as whether you were unplaced in large classes or alone in small ones you'd have an idea of the quality the judge thought your dog was.  This works on the continent as they often have very small breed entries.

As for Crufts qualification, that was only ever about limiting the entry for Crufts due to venue constraints, not about the quality of entrants.

Crufts is just another show, no more or less, but it is more well known, and once taken over by the kennel Club, the only one run by themselves,  so more people wanted to enter, which is why a Qualifier was brought in.

In my main breed you can't really fail to qualify a dog as it is very rare indeed to get more than 3 entries in a class -although we did have 8 in Open Bitch at Crufts once. So you can qualify anything, no matter how bad. But getting TO Crufts is nothing special, like Brainless said the qualification was only brought in to reduce the number of entries due to lack of space, it's not meant as some mark of quality. So if you enter a dog at Crufts that isn't good enough, you don't stand a chance of getting a main award, or even a first unless there are no other entries in the same class. And with visitors from the entire world watching at Crufts, showing a dog of less good quality isn't going to make you look very good. So I don't see it as any advantage at all to have a breed easy to qualify. Well one exception -when my son started to handle he started with a bitch I had bought in for her temperament alone (she is from working x show lines) and she has been perfect for him to learn with, and of course we entered her for Crufts to allow him to handle at Crufts for the first time. But much as he enjoyed it, at the same time it wasn't much fun knowing all along that he'd stand NO chance of winning a class as she simply isn't good enough.  Next time he will be showing a much better dog, now when he has learnt the ropes. :)

So the way I see it, with a breed easy to qualify, you go to Crufts aiming for AT LEAST a class win, or better an RCC or CC, with a breed high in numbers and therefore hard to qualify, you enter Crufts in the hope of ANY placing. The harder to qualify breed will often overall have better dogs qualify.

We get this in my breed at open shows. I'm always in the ring with just us or maybe one other one. Not good but have gone on to get a Group 2

Nessa

It has been known though, that sometimes judges will withhold placings even when the classes are small.

I remember once in a champ show, there were 3 dogs in a junior class and the judge withholding the 1st and just rewarding a 2nd and 3rd. The breed I'm referring to are on the vulnerable breeds.

2nd & 3rd in Junior still qualify for Crufts though, don't they?

Oh how frustrating! But hopefully she'll qualify at the next show. :-)

Yeah they do.

I often think when I'm the only one in my class if my dog was that bad 1st could be witheld. So it's reassuring to still get it!

Also it isn't the dogs fault that there is no competition. 

I don't think many of us aim the the CC or RCC when we enter shows otherwise showing youngsters would be largely pointless, and the majority are destined to be disappointed, so why take part (maybe that is one reason entries are falling?)

I have won the CC and been alone in my class (though I tend to enter more than one class with youngsters due to the low numbers).

In 2009 my youngster won the CC and BOB and then second in the Group at Windsor championship show.  She was alone in one of her breed classes ( I had entered puppy, two entries, Junior alone, and Post Graduate had three).

Yep, but one pooch wasn't even good enough to qualify for Crufts (in the judge's eyes). So, even though I'm surprised of the quality of some of the dogs at Crufts, there are still some judges that are quite selective, and won't let dogs qualify purely based on small number classes.

there are still some judges that are quite selective, and won't let dogs qualify purely based on small number classes.

But IF that is how they think, it is utterly wrong. Qualification and quality should have nothing to do with each other. By all means withhold, but ONLY for the reason that the dog is not good enough for whatever award it is, NOT to stop it qualifying for Crufts.

Let's face it, there are dogs with stud book numbers, so therefore qualified for life, that have never even seen the inside of a show ring.

>Let's face it, there are dogs with stud book numbers, so therefore qualified for life, that have never even seen the inside of a show ring.

Don't understand they have to qualify by wins to get a stud book number. 

In my breed it is only 1st in Open, CC, RCC winners and Junior Warrant winners, though JW are very rare due to the low number of young stock in the ring at any time, and especially the unlikelihood of getting the open show points.

>I remember once in a champ show, there were 3 dogs in a junior class and the judge withholding the 1st and just rewarding a 2nd and 3rd. The breed I'm referring to are on the vulnerable breeds.

I have been trying to work this out all night but  just cant get my head round it. How can the highest placing in a class be withheld? the dogs are judged against a standard and the one the judge deems closest to the standard gets the first place. so no matter how awful the dogs may be the best of them should get the first place.

If one dog is sufficiently bad as to not warrant a place at all then surely the lowest place is the one that should be withheld? If the first place is withheld as the best looking dog is not good enough then surely the ones that are not as good as the first place dog are worse than the one whose place has been withheld? So why would they get a place?

in this scenario with 3 dogs is the dog without a place the one who should have got first but was deemed not good enough? in which case why did the best dog out of the 3 not get a place while the worse dogs did get placed?  or is the dog without a place the one who would have got third if the judge had awarded all places?

I hope that makes sense and someone can explain it to me. what is the purpose of stopping the dogs winning a class? If to stop it going into the challenge then surely the judge can just not considder for best of sex. and if few enough dogs then withhold the CC as not being of sufficient quality. Anything else doesnt make sense to me. :(

I'm not out there showing now but I am still 'watching' and in my own breed, entries have gone down big time.   These days, especially in the dog classes, the whole entry is a fraction of the Post Grad./Limit class numbers.   And instead of losing CCs (which always happened in the past when entries were low?) now we have 'cheap Championships'.   Never mind the Crufts quali.    Again in the past, to avoid people sitting ringside at Crufts, asking how a dog had managed to qualify (!!) judges would withhold, and if necessary on the top 2/3 too.   Which frankly I believe is correct for a show as prestigious as Crufts.   Yes, it's just another show and quali. was done to limit the numbers, but it was also meant to be the one show-case show of the season.

in which case why did the best dog out of the 3 not get a place while the worse dogs did get placed?  or is the dog without a place the one who would have got third if the judge had awarded all places

The 'best in the class' would have been awarded 2nd, not a 1st.   But frankly if the standard of the class was so bad that the 'best' wasn't worthy of a 1st, none of them should have been placed!!!    Imvho.

Brainless I think Goldmali meant the dogs who have stud book numbers because of whatever field of work they are involved in, rather than showing. So the dog could potentially be a poor example physically but still qualified for Crufts for life.

    >Let's face it, there are dogs with stud book numbers, so therefore qualified for life, that have never even seen the inside of a show ring.

Don't understand they have to qualify by wins to get a stud book number. 

Barbara they can qualify by working! There are dogs in my breed that have gained stud book numbers from working trials.

And instead of losing CCs (which always happened in the past when entries were low?) now we have 'cheap Championships'.

That's strange because other breeds are certainly losing tickets. We have lost 2 in my breed. We now have 9 sets a year, and of course the lowest number you can have is 7.

Not sure why there seems to be a feeling that dogs with insufficient quality are being placed or awarded CC or RCC - if the judge does not think they are good enough then they are not awarded either CC, RCC or a place, there is no reason why an award should awarded if the quality is not seen even if there is only one dog entered, believe you do not even have to award BOB these days. The reduction in numbers of a breed being shown would not cause 'cheap' champions just less competition, if the quality is not there then the awards should not be either.

I certainly have noticed more CCs being withheld in the past 3 years.

We had the CC and RCC withheld at Belfast as the only male dog entered was a youngster, one that had done well in Ireland so not an awful one I wouldn't think.

This is where I think grading would concentrate the judges mind.  of course some judges would give an 'excellent' where anther a 'very good' and so on, but gradings should not vary wildly.

Here are the criteria of grading from the Norwegian Kennel Club site: http://web2.nkk.no/filestore/Most_downloaded_files/Show-rules-in-English.01.01.2014-31.12.-2014.doc2.pdf

"12. Definitions of Prizes
12.1 Excellent
Will only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored; it must however have the typical features of its sex.

12.2 Very good
Very good is awarded to a dog which possesses the typical features of its breed, which has well-balanced proportions and is in correct condition. A few minor faults may be tolerated but none of a morphological nature.
This award can only be granted to a dog of very good quality.

12.3 Good
Good is awarded to a dog that possesses the main features of its breed. Any faults must be of a lesser prominent character.

12.4 Sufficient
Sufficient is awarded to a dog which corresponds adequately to its breed, without possessing the generally accepted characteristics or whose physical condition leaves something to be desired.

12.5 Disqualified (0.prize)
Disqualified is given to a dog which does not correspond to the type required by the breed standard, this may be as follows:
A: atypical exterior according to the breed's standard
B: has anatomical flaw(s) that to a major degree affects the dog's physically health, especially in contexts concerning the breed's original use and function.
C: testicular abnormalities
D: scared and/or aggressive behaviour in the ring, and when it is impossible to approach the dog.

If "Disqualified" is awarded as a result of point D, the judge must sign the prize list concerning the incident.

Other abnormalities in mentality shall be judged according to the breed standard.
The reason for disqualification must always be stated in the judge's critique.

-Any dog that has been disqualified three times, because of disposition (see point D), are banned from entering dog shows.

12.6 Cannot be judged- KIP
KIP is given a dog when it is impossible to judge its exterior, quality, movements and gait. This may be if the dog constantly jumps up and down on its handler, does not move at all, avoids the judge, makes it impossible to
inspect teeth, anatomy, structure and testicles, has a puppy- like behaviour, is in poor physical condition. Also if the dog is trimmed to the extent that its coat cannot be judged, and/or the dog that has an injury that makes it difficult to judge its movements.

The reason for KIP must always be stated in the judge's critique."

This is what worries me -some judges seem to withhold automatically if there aren't many dogs entered. Well you could have one single entry of a fantastic dog, couldn't you. Recently (not my breed) CC and RCC was withheld where there were just 3 entries of the sex and I KNOW one of them was a very good dog indeed -but still a young pup. One of my own dogs had the CC withheld once when he was the only male entry -that was 2 months after he took the DCC at Crufts beating the breed record holder for it..........!! I'm all for withholding and always have been but sometimes you do wonder if it is done for the right reasons. Likewise I also know of dogs that have won tickets and especially reserves when there was no competition, which they really should not have done as they simply weren't good enough, i.e. had obvious major faults.

This is where I think grading would concentrate the judges mind.  of course some judges would give an 'excellent' where anther a 'very good' and so on, but gradings should not vary wildly.

To be honest I don't think it would make any difference, the BSD championship shows in the UK are ALWAYS graded with critique given on the day, like on the continent (and every other year we have continental judges), and I can't say it makes much difference. Some judges give everything Excellent, others hardly any, people still complain etc. We had a recent show where several  CC winners including Champions with more than 3 CCs were only graded "Very good" -including a previous Crufts BOB winner.

We had a recent show where several  CC winners including Champions with more than 3 CCs were only graded "Very good" -including a previous Crufts BOB winner.

As long as judging is subjective, which it can only ever be, whether the winners are as good as they should be will always be questionable although I'd think the odd unexpected results would even out over a season.  Fact is when I was out there, entries in the Bitch classes used to run at around 15 or more in Post Grad, slightly less perhaps in Limit and Open.  And that to me would suggest that to come out on top of entries of that size should mean there is no such thing as a cheap Championship!!   And yes I did put a Championship on my imported bitch with numbers at that level.   She also took a RBCC Crufts one year.    Would there be as much satisfaction in taking a title out of class entries of 2 or 3,  as taking it from much higher entries, some of which may well be from the same ownership!?  Not for me there wouldn't.   I'd suggest the overall quality within a breed could well start to deteriorate.    And yes, some judges should, and still do, withhold but that's always open to controversy.

Not sure about grading, speaking from personal experience I have only had one dog entered under me that had little or no breed type. Think it is like any method of assessing almost anything it depends as much on the mind set of the person assessing as the quality or otherwise of that being assessed. The writing of a standard gives the ideal in words so is open to being coloured by the ideals set in the 'judge's' mind, what looks excellent to one person may fall far short of what another wishes to see in the breed. Now if exact measurements and colour charts were included in a standard then you could expect that judges would come to the same conclusion but they aren't and they don't and fortunately mathematics in not needed to find the dog you think comes closes to the breed standard, well your interpretation of it.

I do think though that both in low entries and high entries (where good dogs can fail to place) grading would give the exhibitor some idea of the quality of their exhibit according to that judge.

With low class numbers the exhibit placed last out of two or three would feel far happier if their dog was still graded of excellent quality, rather than feel disappointment at being last, and the same with those unplaced in huge entries.

I know for example if I am in a large stakes class or even Group being shortlisted feels great, even without getting a place.

Would there be as much satisfaction in taking a title out of class entries of 2 or 3,  as taking it from much higher entries, some of which may well be from the same ownership!?  Not for me there wouldn't.   I'd suggest the overall quality within a breed could well start to deteriorate.

I think it is very offensive to suggest UK Champions are cheap just because there weren't a lot of entries. If you have a breed with just 2 or 3 show litters born each year and 99% of puppy buyers are only interested in working and not showing, how could you possibly increase entries? It doesn't mean the overall quality is poor! Quality and quantity are two entirely different things.

In 2010 two Champion bitches were made up in my breed that I think are perfect examples of this. The first was my own. She had won her FIRST ticket at Belfast out of a a tiny entry of 3 -we no longer have tickets there and it was madness to ever offer them there, but it wasn't MY fault that nobody else travelled over from the mainland! I went as I had a puppy buyer there who wanted to show as well, and we had a very well respected breed specialist judge. Some people were saying you shouldn't even count a ticket won like that etc. Well not only did she win her second ticket in more competition but her third ticket came at CRUFTS (which always has the biggest entry of the year, with dogs from abroad competing too), she did it with BOB, beating existing Champions. Point proved.

The second bitch was our "arch rival". She too had won one ticket out of a minute entry. She gained her third and then proved to everyone how deserving she was by winning a group at a championship show -the first time EVER a Malinois had won a championship show group!

Do feel Goldmali that in breeds of small numbers where there are only a few dedicated breeders who work together the standard of what they produce is, in fact, higher than in breeds where many breed often with little knowledge of what others are doing and because of this there is a diverse example of dogs seen at shows, the uniformity loose and good examples of the standard to any one set of eyes small. Which I think probable means that the animals winning the CC from only a small entry may well be of better quality.

Understand what you mean Brainless but I think perhaps the classification is too wide at the high end it is not that satisfactory to come last in a group of exhibits all said to be excellent, what you really want to know is why some dogs were placed and yours was not.


I think it is very offensive to suggest UK Champions are cheap just because there weren't a lot of entries. If you have a breed with just 2 or 3 show litters born each year and 99% of puppy buyers are only interested in working and not showing, how could you possibly increase entries? It doesn't mean the overall quality is poor! Quality and quantity are two entirely different things.

Oh good heavens!!   Offensive to offer an opinion?   Clearly one might hope the overall standard was high, especially in numerically small breeds (which is probably more likely to be the case).   However, I've seen what's going on at the moment in my breed which might suggest otherwise.   And to me, taking a title with entries as low as they have become (again note, IN MY BREED!!) might make it likely for Championships to be way too easy to achieve.   I suppose exactly how good the new Champion is, would be shown by being placed in THE GROUP!!!   But how many Champions in the UK go on to be campaigned at Group level?   No they take their title, and run.   Actually the fact that in my main breed, a vet check is required for a new Championship to be confirmed/BOB go forward into the Group, should mean that standards are kept up - although only in the health area?

Oh good heavens!!   Offensive to offer an opinion?

Yes. If I said my opinion was your breed has unworthy Champions /is ugly/ unhealthy/ (take your pick on what offends you the most), wouldn't YOU be offended, even if it was my opinion? (Which it isn't.)

I suppose exactly how good the new Champion is, would be shown by being placed in THE GROUP!!!

Hardly in my breed, where only two dogs EVER have won a championship show group -they are just not a breed often considered.

"Yes. If I said my opinion was your breed has unworthy Champions /is ugly/ unhealthy/ (take your pick on what offends you the most), wouldn't YOU be offended, even if it was my opinion? (Which it isn't.)"

Actually no, I wouldn't be.   Honestly!!!    If the standard in my breed had dropped, then personally I'd welcome an opinion, preferably an informed one.  And I'm talking about moving away from being typical for the breed, the conformation (as laid down by the Breed Standard) and the overall health.   Surely ugly is in the eye of the beholder - and there are many out there who reckon my breed is 'ugly' LoL.   I always welcome opinion.

Hey ho.

With apologies to the OP for hijacking this thread

>I suppose exactly how good the new Champion is, would be shown by being placed in THE GROUP!!!

Now here I disagree, in the group it is often more about fashion, showmanship and handling as anything else.

I have placed in group with three of my champion bitches , twice (not as often as some as we show lightly and hardly a brilliant handler) at shows where we were without CC's and once with Cc when my youngest was just under a year old on two CC's.

More often we have done well in stakes classes (though we are now rarely entering as they have become too expensive when there is a good chance of having to miss them).

There are definitely breeds that often get group placings and others that rarely do.  I don't think it has much to do with the quality of the individual breeds.

Emphasis on Group success is actually the ruination of many breeds with the move towards the generic show dogs as in USA where so many are over angulated, straight in front (to give that on the toes look), moved at break neck speed, trimmed, even in breeds where it is not supposed to be done, with lots of coat in all but the smooth coated breeds, and emphasis on glamour.

For me Group placings have as much relevance as placings at an exemption show, a bit of fun.

You are not wrong re what happens in N.America.   And much of my comment about what success a Champion has if campaigned on beyond the title, at Group level, being relevant, comes from my time in Canada where the 'worth/merit' of a Champion was, perhaps wrongly, measured by how well it did after moving on to Group showing.   But I have to say it could lead to a 'generic' dog - certainly so many out there are moved the same (flying round the ring), regardless of breed!!!   Nothing wrong in a dog being presented to it's best advantage however (glamour).

It still worries me that it does happen that a dog who hasn't had to win a title by beating out lots of existing Champions, isn't shown much after that, but is used at stud because it's a Champion (red type on pedigrees).   Which is where my concerns, again, about 'cheap Champions' comes from.

I think very few knowledgeable breeders will breed because of titles, as compatibility of desired breed traits with your bitches is what matters, though of course if they are using good dogs hopefully some will be titled.