I've not shown in a while now but seen quite a few photos of a couple of breeds where it is to me apparent that many dogs have lots of rolls over their shoulders.

For me they either have upright shoulders causing this or they are overweight unless someone can tell me different.. What I can't understand that this seems to be the norm in some breeds even when the breed standard doesn't ask for this and requires a good lay of the shoulder.

Are these dogs really fit for function and should they really be getting class wins or higher honours?

Surely construction and movement should be at the forefront of any judge otherwise I can't for me see how they are fit for function?

You are not wrong!!   In my main breed, upright shoulders/unsuffient layback is a real problem resulting in overloaded shoulders, no sternum and as a result all too often, diabolical front movement.   And then there's the fact that too many new breeders, again in my breed, don't know the difference between 'substance' and 'fat'.   And you are also right - judges should know better than put up exhibits with this kind of fault.   But fact is, sometimes it's hard to find one that IS correct in front, and if they are, often they fail in other areas!!!   

As far as judges are concerned, all too often because most are breeder/judges in this country, not only do they have a 'hidden agenda', but they get used to seeing what perhaps they are producing!!!    This is where is often helps to have a percentage of 'all rounder' judges - was the case in Canada/N.America that most judges graduated from the ranks of the professional handler.   Very few were actually breeder/judges.  But again, ex-professional handlers often tended to favour professional handlers rather than owner-handled exhibits.

ps  If I sound jaundiced about showing, I am and I got out of it years ago now.   Not only was it a case of heat/kitchen and getting out of, I came to the end of my bloodline.

I totally understand where you are coming from.. Te more results I see coming in and te photos from the shows, not just my own breed I just don't feel like putting my toes back in as yet..
This isn't sour grapes on my part as my girl has done well, not top honours but has been considered but it's more what I'm seeing and can't get my head around it all..
Far too many breeds have this issue and rather than deal with it I can only see it getting worse.
Totally see that there are other faults on dogs but I can't forgive poor construction and movement whatever the breed...
I've heard some breed specialists say they will forgive certain points of construction and movement over breed specific points... That to me is a worry, I can understand wanting whatever breed to look like it should be to forgo the former I don't agree with that

As far as judges are concerned, all too often because most are breeder/judges in this country, not only do they have a 'hidden agenda', but they get used to seeing what perhaps they are producing!!!    This is where is often helps to have a percentage of 'all rounder' judges

I would say here in the UK we have FAR too many allrounders, and in my experience, those are the judges that set dangerous trends -they so often do not know enough about a breed and so will put up something incorrect, and others follow, which means people will end up breeding for a fault as the allrounder judges like it. I see it all the time, the breed specialists put up completely different dogs -that usually are the far better ones. (And yes, sounder ones too.)


I would say here in the UK we have FAR too many allrounders, and in my experience, those are the judges that set dangerous trends -they so often do not know enough about a breed and so will put up something incorrect, and others follow, which means people will end up breeding for a fault as the allrounder judges like it. I see it all the time, the breed specialists put up completely different dogs -that usually are the far better ones. (And yes, sounder ones too.)

It's clearly different in your breed Goldmali re non breeder judges.   And actually I like not having breeder judges because usually allrounders (who generally speaking have put their time in so they DO know about those breeds they are qualified to judge?) are able to look at the WHOLE dog, not just a particular fault the breeder is fixated on (some judge for fronts, others for rears, others for heads).   And breeder judges tend to put up friends, usually breeding the same type they produce.   All rounder judges can be facey of course, but that's bound to be the case I guess.

I would just say that it helps to have breeder-judges if only because they (should!!) know what's going wrong in a breed, and place accordingly.  But how often does that really happen!!!!

(who generally speaking have put their time in so they DO know about those breeds they are qualified to judge?)

It could well be my breed but sadly so many judges seem to just want the numbers and often judge breeds they have absolutely no interest in, and again know little about as they may well have forgotten what they once did learn. (I mean I learnt German in school but have forgotten pretty much all of it, as I have had no interest in continuing it. It's what happens.) You can tell from the critiques (if there even are any) with odd comments etc, and on how little time some spend watching the dogs in the ring -turning their backs when a dog is moving for instance.

The entire system is wrong of course. The more somebody  judges, the more appointments they get -and hence we even have an allrounder for Crufts next year, which is absolutely appalling -that is one show that REALLY should always have breed specialists. We have lots of really good breed specialist judges  with decades of experience but many of them won't ever get asked to judge Crufts as they haven't judged enough, even though they have done enough to give tickets.

In my breed an added problem is that many allrounders don't know how to approach the dogs (my breed being a notoriously difficult one that you MUST know how to approach properly), and so can end up putting dogs off for life. Many of us now try to only enter under breed specialists, at least with younger dogs. In fact the most common advice given for puppies is never EVER enter under allrounders.

This year at championship shows we have had judges (ones climbing the ladder) that nobody in the breed has ever heard of before, and when doing a bit of research they haven't even owned dogs of the same GROUP let alone the breed. One true allrounder judged the breed three times this year, and yet breed specialists, still active in the breed, can go years in between appointments. That particular allrounder has been known to say certain dogs are too big for their liking (even though they were not, it was just personal preference) and indeed have put up dogs that are bordering on being too small, above ones of medium, average, size. They have been making comments like this for years. We now see dogs overall smaller than just ten years ago.