Hi ll many of you really helped me out last time my bichon boy is now 9months old everything has gone really well toilet training etc but we cannot get him to stop biting its not all the time as before but a fair amount he will suddenly grab ur feet or hand run off and then start to bark we have stuck to getting up leaving the room since having him and redirecting him onto his toys but thereis no gentle bite either sometimes he leaves a mark! its worrying as when we have visitors he jumps at peoples faces from the floor he can reach us shorter people too any extra advice would be really appreciated.

Just keep being consistent.  I'd still expect this behaviour from teem to time when they find self control slipping when excited, to around two years with my own breed.

I agree with Brainless on this.   Except with mine the self control slips with excitement right up until they have 2 years under each paw!  But then competition comes into effect with mine as there's more than one and they are vey competitive when it comes to visitors.

Try keeping him away from visitors when they arrive, and only allowing him to meet and greet once they are settled. 

Try also to ensure that visitors greet him calmly and quietly - I've always found this the most difficult, visitors and family have been more difficult to train than my dogs!

And before he's allowed to meet and greet, pop him on his lead, so that you can control the jumping up ;-)   

My teenage dog is going through this stage at the moment. Most of the time she is fine, well behaved and gentle, other times she gets over excited and starts jumping and mouthing. My main problem with her at the moment is that she gets a bee in her bonnet if she's either stopped from doing something or taken away from something or where she wants to go. This sets of an episode of grabbing the lead, trying to grab my hands or arms and generally being quite obnoxious.
I deal with this by ignoring, turning my back, folding my arms out of reach and staring at the sky. I usually have to to this several times before she gets the message. It's an absolute pain and you can guarantee she will do this when there is an interested audience seated comfortably and watching. :-(
I know this is a teenage bossy phase where she just wants everything her way, but it's hard work dealing with it at the time and can be upsetting. I try to be firm, but fair and after one of these episodes I follow it up with some training - walking to heel, sitting etc etc, just something mild, but something to get her to listen again and realise who's in control round here.
She's 16 months, so only another 8 months to go. Sigh.

My youngest is a strong willed little character and she has gone and now come out the stroppy teenager, I know better, how dare the others tell me what to do stage. 

She has been a sore trial to me and some of the other dogs, so I suppose these days the other dogs to take the brunt of such behaviour.

She is now 2 1/2 and largely a civilised adult now.

Thankyou all i do try to stand up arms folded and ignore but its pretty hard when hes jumping up and biting our bums lol im thinking of a house line and under a table leg until hes calm?? what do you think? he is a very very testing bichon whos always gotta have his mouth around something (sigh) visitors arethe hardest to trainas they all go squeaky when they see a little ball of white fluff awww isnt he cute they say  :O give it amin u wont be saying that lol

im thinking of a house line and under a table leg until hes calm??

Are you meaning put him on a lead and tying up inside the house ? Someone please tell me I am reading this the wrong way!!!

Houseline yes, but I'd use it as a means to calmly get him into another room for a time-out without having to actually handle him so your hands are away from his teeth so he's not getting inadvertently rewarded by being able to munch you, and that has the added bonus of no pain for you so you can keep calm and again, not inadvertently reward him through making exciting noises.

what general training have you done with him? I'd be looking at the reason for the over excitement as well and I wonder if he's just under-stimulated? ie bored!! He's too young for agility yet but there are foundation classes out there which he could do, obedience, trick training or anything would give him something to think about and take the edge off his excitement.

What Nikita said. The houseline should only be used as a teaching tool not simply as an end in itself. I know that you have been told about Ian Dunbar and the bite stops here before, in that document is instruction in how to use the houseline with determined biters and nippers.

Nonetheless, the question remains as to why your dog has got into this habit and what he might be missing in his daily regime? On the face of it it sounds as though he has learned to dissipate his excitement around visitors and at various times of the day by nipping. However, that is a complete guess. Dogs use their teeth and some like to do that more than others. As they become teenagers the effects of hormones etc.. can send excitement levels soaring and the dog gets rid of all that energy by doing what comes naturally and what he enjoys and I am afraid chasing and nipping games is one example, inappropriate jumping, barking and humping are other examples. Bottom line is you need to teach him other outlets for his frustration.

You have had a trainer in before and I wonder if it is time for a refresh? You cannot expect to get a complete answer without one of us seeing the dog in situ and all the factors that might contribute to his behaviour now. I would strongly advise you to go back to your trainer or, as previously advised, get a behaviourist in from the UKRCB or APBC.

>You have had a trainer in before and I wonder if it is time for a refresh? You cannot expect to get a complete answer without one of us seeing the dog in situ and all the factors that might contribute to his behaviour now. I would strongly advise you to go back to your trainer or, as previously advised, get a behaviourist in from the UKRCB or APBC.

Or indeed, joining a class, attending every week, and being shown where you are going wrong.  No use looking for an easy answer.  Classes are the way forward, and total commitment will get you there.

Jean, in principle I think you are spot on but it is possible that the bitey behaviour will not show in class and there is not always time for the trainers to give the required one on one- though they may well have the knowledge and skills to advise. The other point is that sometimes it is useful to see the setup at home and whether the dog us being stressed by something, causing them to react.

Classes will tire a pup out nicely though. I have a 7 month old and I know that if we have been either to a show, or to training class, the next morning I will get a lay in as pup will sleep and sleep. :)

GM. True. Ideally, I'd say do both, get someone in once to sort home regime and behaviour training in depth and then attend obedience classes.

Also, bear in mind that when pups get overtired any manners they've learnt goes out the window.
I think pups being in bitey mode is one thing that causes most concern to new owners so you're not alone and usually the pup will grow out of it. When I think back to my first pup I didn't know what to expect and he was a holy terror but I survived and came out the other end intact!

Thanks we are still going to training class but he doesnt do this there i am calling someone back in about it so they can see him at home one more question can he still be teething at all he is 10 months almost just hes very distructive and always wants a finger from a hand towards tge back of his mouth and ge tends to place it on his very back teeth doesnt bite just seems to like slight pressure there? Obviously i dont let him chew on my fingernbut this is what he tries to do

Yes, back teeth can still be bedding in. In addition, bitey behaviour can be an inappropriate way to release anxiety/frustration. It is good that you are getting a professional in. If your vet has not seen him recently I would also describe all this to him and just make sure there is not some issue with his jaw/teeth.

Vet appointment is booked he seems to go from loving and gentle then switches quicker than lightning to the devil!! For no reason at all its mad he does however paw ar his face and rub it along the geound groaning so could be the jaw looks to me like he has shark teeth never seen teeth like it as i had a staffy before thanks for you reply

TP, Good, vet sounds to be the priority. Make sure you tell the vet that he rubs face along carpet groaning and paws at his face. Vet needs to really examine his mouth, head and neck and dog may require sedation for this to be done properly.

Discuss his diet with the vet as a food sensitivity might also trigger a physical reaction and sudden, mad behaviour. You may have to look at an exclusion diet just to make sure.

I'd also look at getting trainer in though as behaviours caused by something else can become habitual.

Please let us know what happens and what vet says.

So often, with behaviour issues you have to proceed quite methodically to exclude various possible causes one by one and first on the list is often an underlying medical cause.

Thanks hee is on raw diet nutriment is the name he seems to really enjoy it and it settled his tummy down as when we got him he was on royal canin and had constant runs issues the raw has sorted him out completly but will speak to the vet they are never happy when we say raw feeding always try to push hills onto us

The 'shark teeth' description makes me wonder if he has retained puppy teeth. 

If the new teeth are through it may be making him very uncomfortable or the new teeth may be aligning wrong if the baby teeth are still too firmly anchored. 

Does he get to chew bones or hard chews, these can help a lot.

Yes, B it does sound as though something may be awry. I also thought TP's description of how he likes to get her finger in his mouth but just pressing against the teeth and gums was telling. So glad she is taking action both with vet and with trainer.

Yes he gets plenty of bones and chews been to the vet she doesnt think the teeth are odd she sis say he shouldnt be doing this biting and barking thing now really so i am a little concerned he seems to do it to get attention or when he is told off for nipping feet he gets worse :( someone told me its the breed i find that hard to believe as people i know with bichons are lovely little friendly dogs

>when he is told off for nipping feet he gets worse

Just a reminder here.  IGNORE unwanted behaviour.  Telling a dog off is giving them a reaction.  You are going about this the wrong way.  And, unfortunately it is unlikely that your vet is a trainer and behaviourist.

You say that he does this to get attention.  Well, you are giving the attention, so you are rewarding the dog.

Jean, agree. Think many teenage dogs of a certain type can behave this way. Telling off won't work as he is not perceiving it as punishment but more, it sounds, like a challenge/game.

Please speak to your trainer and ask if they feel they can help you. Please also remember with a behaviour like this, barky biting which the dog finds highly rewarding, you have to apply any consequence (probably what we call negative punishment) a 100% consistently. If you don't the behaviour gets much, much worse.

Ask your trainer if they can explain what negative punishment and extinction bursts mean. If they can't my strong advice is to get a proper behaviourist in- a person who completely understands the science of learning and behaviour as well as many years of practical experience training dogs under their belt, either or isn't good enough.

Your vet has said the dog is healthy so the role of the person who advises you is to discover what is not quite working between you and your dog in terms of communication and feedback.

I will not offer any more advice on this here other than to say look up UKRCB or APBC for help.

Thankyou we do try not to tell him off but when hes hanging off our foot with his teeth its hard not to give a reaction and if we try to get him to put him out for time out he rins off and barks i will take ur last bit of advice thankyou

>but when hes hanging off our foot with his teeth its hard not to give a reaction and if we try to get him to put him out for time out he rins off and barks

Tis is where leaving a short house lead/line on his collar in the house would pay dividends.  You would use this to get him where you need him, without putting your hands on him.

Yes, I do believe I advised use of a houseline and tethering points the very first time TP posted about her Bichon pup.

I think this is a good example of why it is sometimes better to get professional help in right away and someone to show you what to do rather than getting information piecemeal from forums and the like and possibly getting things wrong.

The OP now has a dog that has had months of practising his favourite game, ambushing and attacking human limbs!

I really hope she gets the help she needs.

Traceypain....iT IS not THE BREED.Having bred Bichons for many years, this is not the way they behave. You need to look at nurture rather that nature

In fairness any breed can throw a dog with atypical traits once in a while.

Indeed, and that's without considering the state of the breed as a whole in this country - they have become massively overbred following the popularity for small fluffy dogs, whether that be purebred bichons or as I'm seeing a lot more of round here, "cavachons" or "poochons" (which I still don't understand the point of, even by designer dog standards).  Many of these and the purebreds are very nervous and not good examples of the breed at all.

I am not saying that the OP's dog is badly bred of course, just giving examples of how bichons might not be as we'd expect them to be.

I am currently seeing more issues with designer crosses of the gundog poo/doodle variety than with pedigrees. Quite aside from all the usual byb problems another element is use of working strains producing very drivey dogs, owned by folk that just want something more akin to an automated, cuddly toy.

Thanks for all helpful advice i really appreciate it i have arranged a home visit yet again from a behaviourist and maywell book another vet appointment thanks again a short houseline left on him i habent seen these around where my local pet store is please can you tell me where to find them?

I have a friend  who is a behaviourist, so when my new male puppy (who is now 3.5yrs old) began to nip I ask for his advice as my other dogs didnt seem half as bad in thier puppyhood.
He gave me some super advice which is easier to explain on this you tube video I found later... this is a US version but basically the same advice my friend gave me.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOybmB3IMg0
You do have to continue the training through the day ..everyday... but it did click into place for my boy reasonably  quickly and it was very effective for us .

good luck..

i habent seen these around where my local pet store is please can you tell me where to find them?

A suitable size hook - from an old lead? - with a piece of suitable length string tied to it. :-)

Or a cheap light puppy lead with the handle loop cut off

I'd just use a cheap light puppy lead.    The woven ones are perfect.    Surely you have one from when you first had him?

It's more important to be consistent with what you do,  than to have just the right piece of fancy kit.

All the kit in the world is useless without a consistent calm approach.

And it's no good allowing an unwanted behaviour at certain times,  then not allowing it at other times for whatever reason.    That's confusing and unfair to the dog.

Most of the people who have problems with their pet's behaviour,  that I know,  are inconsistent with their training.   Whether it's because the owner is inconsistent,  or the rest of the family won't keep up the training.    And of course it's more difficult to retrain a dog that has been trained inconsistently than one that hasn't been trained at all ;-)

I inadvertently taught my pup to stop biting in a similar way to Starryeyes very good advice.
There is a Kikupup video showing how to stop dogs 'mugging' your hand in order to get a treat. You hold the treat in a clenched fist and offer to the dog who immediately starts nibbling at your fist to get at the food. As soon as the dog draws back to reconsider what to do, click and give treat. The idea is for the dog to stop nibbling, licking, biting or pawing at your fist to get the treat and just wait until it's given. Works very quickly as dogs soon realise that trying to get the treat out isn't going to work and if they just wait then they get it. Isla stopped playbiting my hands very soon afterwards.

As he is now 9 months old and seems a very active dog that needs something to do, why don't you try your hand at something with him like flyball for instance? My Papillons can be extremely active and when a puppy buyer of mine got her first Papillon from me she quickly realised he was totally different to any small dogs she'd had before, so she started going to flyball classes -and it turned out her pup was a natural for it. He loved it from day one and gets all his excess energy spent. Or there's agility -he just won't be able to do actual jumps just yet but can learn the ropes.

Nothing tires dogs out as much as training of some sort. We go to pet obedience classes every Sunday evening and I KNOW that Monday morning I will get a lay in as the dogs I brought the previous evening will be fast asleep even when I wake up -and my youngest is an 8 month old Malinois - you don't get much more hyperactive than that. :)

>can you tell me where to find them?

Just use and old lead with the handle opened up, (so no handle to catch on anything) or a piece of washing line attached to lead clip.

It's very useful for dogs that get on furniture, get onto landings, steps etc. and guard refuse to get off.  A tug on the line will make them comply without getting your hands on them.

Thanks all i will definately try all mentioned :)

I feel for you Tracey and empathise -  My girl still has a long way to go as she is still doing a lot of unwanted behaviour but I don't expect training ever ends.  She is definitely improved and sometimes like at 5.00am it is difficult to be consistent when they are hanging off you. One thing I have learnt is don't expect it all to happen immediately and completely think back and remember how far you have both come and give yourself a break. This is supposed to be fun! My trainer says at that age whilst you have instilled all the basic hardwiring it does all seem to go out the window. My pup now decides she isn't going to walk in a circle she is just going to sit / go the other way anything but do what I want. I have to laugh as she does look like a bored teenager. I think you are being tough on yourself and him. He seems to know this is stressing you try to relax so he can't pick up any "vibes". Since I have thought this is a marathon not a sprint. I have chilled and am enjoying it more as I don't expect her or me to be perfect, just that we improve. Trainer also says  that a dog will spend all its time watching and reading your body language. They will work 10 times harder than you to get you to do what they want so you have to be 10 times more consistent and relaxed . He does sound really clever and I think flyball would be a good outlet. I also think scent work is good to tire my one. Just get some old pots and put a treat / toy in one very easy but focuses her.

Thanks Tish im beginning to feel like giving up hes driving us crazy biting and grabbing at us most of the day its very tiring

I still think you have made progress you are so hard on yourself, don't forget how far you have come. You have had a lot of success you just cannot see it objectively at the moment.  All my early training is like its unravelling but I have to keep remembering it is to be expected and try to go back to basics. I think your dog seems way more intent on continuing his behaviour which must be exhausting for you. I do however think while my puppy is hectic and challenging your are experienced I'm not so you should seek a behaviourist even if it is just to support you through this period as you seem to be at a loss. My trainers are great at reassuring me she is just starting to assert herself again and to try to take a deep breath and just ignore her when she does.  I wish you luck and support as it is clearly troubling you greatly and he seems a determined little boy.

Thanks Tish im beginning to feel like giving up hes driving us crazy biting and grabbing at us most of the day its very tiring

Are you giving him regular times where he is able to sleep?

Manic behaviour is often a result of a young dog not having enough sleep -  just like toddlers.

Of course neutering him at such a young age won't have helped as neutering often slows down the mental development of dogs.   They tend to remain much more puppyish.

So the mental maturity that would naturally have occured as his body matured through the action of testosterone,  may never happen without a lot of training.

NOT saying that it won't ever happen,  just that you need to acknowledge that it may take a lot longer for him to grow up and this basic training will have to go on for longer.

Having said that,  most people in dogs wouldn't expect a dog to be fully mature until at least 18 months and would certainly not be alarmed at a dog taking longer to stop behaving like a puppy.

One thing I'm wondering is how the family interact with the pup?

For example,

My BILs sheltie was very bitey right up until he stayed with me at 2 years old.    Couldn't even give him a treat without losing a finger!

Turned out,  they were offering things to him,  but as he went to take it,  pulling away fast as they were scared of being bitten.
They also did this when they went to stroke him,  put their hands near/over his head,  then pulled away fast as his nose came up.

THEY HAD TAUGHT THE DOG TO BITE!

Took me half a day,  off and on,  to stop him snapping and be gentle when taking treats,  being stroked  etc.    Took a lot longer to train the family he lived with ;-)

Could you maybe post what is a typical days routine for you/him? All pups need training but I'm surprised he's quite so relentless at that age, if you can give an idea of his normal life then people might be able to spot some changes that may help.
BTW, do you use a crate with him?

So,   How did the Home Visit with the trainer/behaviourist go?