Hi there,

I'm importing a pup for the first time to UK from Europe.  They are asking for full payment upfront.  I have already paid deposit and would prefer to pay balance on delivery, especially given I've only seen photos of the pup. They have sent me copies of passport.  Is it normal to pay upfront for an imported dog?  Should I ask to see export pedigree before payment?  I feel very nervous about this, given how much money is involved.

Thanks

What are the circumstances behind importing the pup.?    Which part of Europe?

Is it from a renowned kennel,  a breeder you know and trust?  or just someone you 'found on the internet'?

Really, how you proceed,  depends on the answer ;-)

They are from Hungary.  I'm not sure if they could be described as renowned, but they do have reportedly well-known reputation for exporting dogs.  I spoke to one buyer from UK and they said they imported from this kennel ok and paid in advance before delivery, but only problem was export pedigree did not arrive with pup and they had to wait extra month for that certificate.

It just seems to be quite unreasonable for exporting breeders to expect full payment in advance, especially since they are so far away, I've not even seen the puppy except in photos, and they are delivering by car so I can easily pay when they get here. It's not as if I am buying from a large company where one can bring complaint or easily get refund if something goes wrong such as missing documents.

I have asked that they send to me at least the export certificate before I send any more payment.  Is that reasonable?

Yes, absolutely I'd expect to have paid for the pup before they went to the considerable effort and/or expense of getting it to where you are collecting it from. They presumably don't know you from a hole in the wall (no reflection on you, am sure you're lovely!). You might not even be there when the pup arrives if you are not financially invested! (Again, not 'you', but 'the buyer' if they don't know you.)

Mind you, I'd want to have seen the pup and met the breeders if they weren't very well known and reputable breeders anyway. But then, circle again, if they weren't I wouldn't be buying it!

M.

From your comments it sounds as though you want to 'see' before you buy.  Understandable I too wouldn't want to buy a pup I hadn't seen BUT it sounds as if your breeder is going to a lot of trouble to bring the pup here and they too will have concerns.  What if you agree to buy but back out at the last minute - are they then expected to fund the transport and return costs?

If you do not trust this breeder enough to pay up front then it seems fairer to back out now - before any additional costs are incurred.
If you do trust them then you must abide by the terms they have set.

Alternatively perhaps you could visit your puppy before travel and/or bring the pup home yourself...

If it is so important that you get your pup from Hungary then perhaps you have to make concessions you wouldn't normally make

>I'm not sure if they could be described as renowned, but they do have reportedly well-known reputation for exporting dogs.

If it's not a rude question, why are you buying from this kennels if they do not have an excellent reputation for their dogs, rather than just for exporting?

What breed is it? It does sound a bit dodgy to me, and of course some countries in recent years have got wellknown for selling pet puppies abroad at vast profits, often of unrecognised colours. I wouldn't want a kennel wellknown for exporting, I'd want one wellknown for producing quality dogs, proven in the showring or in any form of working. Have you researched how well the dogs they have exported previously have done? This was the first thing I did when I contacted a breeder abroad this year, and with Google it is so easy -I quickly found major awards won in several countries, both in Europe and the US, by dogs exported by the same breeder.

I imported from Belgium in March. I paid a deposit for the dog for the breeder to keep him for me -I was offered the dog in January (he had been run on) when I first contacted them but was not able to get over to collect until March, so I thought that was reasonable. The dog was transferred into my name in Belgium before I got there, and all along I received copies of all forms both in e-mail and post. When we got to Belgium we were shown the dog as well as his sire and other relatives, went for a walk to see we'd get on, was shown what he could do, and only after we were happy with all that did we fill in contracts etc, were given the passport, the certified pedigree (in my name) and handed money over. This wasn't just for my protection, but obviously the breeder was the same as good breeders here in the UK -he wasn't just going to hand his dog over to me unless he decided he liked me first! He also told me he had checked me up within the breed in the UK before even accepting the deposit.

I imported from Holland in 2008, so this was before pets passports became so much easier. That time we (the dog is co-owned, so this was my friend and I) went to see the pup at 10 weeks and paid for him then, but then as he had to stay a further 7 months we paid monthly for his upkeep. My friend went to visit him once more on her own and then when we went back the third time to collect him, that was when we paid the balance and were given all paperwork.

The dog I bought this year I was able to enter for a show as soon as we got back to the UK and had sent all forms to the KC, and he was at his first UK show a month later.

It's not so much about the puppy itself I'm worried.  I'm pretty sure it will be fine.  I'm more worried about the documentation, in particular the export pedigree. If that doesn't arrive, one can't register the dog in the UK. I understand it's a long way for them to come as well for delivery, but just seems unreasonable to expect full payment before everything is received/delivered in full, not just puppy but all documentation.

Forgot to say, the fact the breeder wants to DELIVER would also ring warning bells with me.

Yes, their puppies have good reputation for health as well.  I have received health/DNA test results of parents and pedigree lines look very good.

You only mention health and exporting -surely their pups must have a good reputation for being breed typical and have proven themselves in shows or working? Why else would you import?

The parents are show dogs, and the sire in particular has many European awards.  I really don't wish to get into particulars on a public forum, so please excuse if I don't give specific names.

>I understand it's a long way for them to come as well for delivery, but just seems unreasonable to expect full payment before everything is received/delivered in full, not just puppy but all documentation.

I certrainly wouldn't export a puppy to a total stranger without receiving the payment in full in advance (I wouldn't export a puppy to a total stranger anyway, but that's not the issue here). What an easy way that'd be to steal a puppy!

>Is it normal to pay upfront for an imported dog?

Yes as your involving the breeder in more cost (Pet passport) and time (keeping pup to 16 weeks).

I am assuming this is not a straight commercial transaction of buying a pet.  the only reason to import is to bring in fresh bloodlines for complementing our gene pool, or if it is a breed not known in UK.

Of course you would have to know or be able to verify that this is a respected breeder of your breed, with bloodlines your seeking.

There can be no earthly reason to resort to importing a pet puppy as your likely to risk buying from the Euro puppy farmers who have found a fresh market here since the relaxation of travel to UK.

No, they aren't puppy farmers or complete strangers.  We've corresponded by email before regarding other dog matters and they were always very helpful, which is also one reason I decided to go with them.  I also had a positive recommendation from another breeder.  Just wondering from people who have imported dogs what is normal in terms of payment, etc.  Seems like a mixed reaction on this thread...some saying definitely yes should pay in full, others suggesting very bad idea to import at all.  I guess just no easy answers sometimes....thanks for all input in any case!

Ps.  There would be no way of me stealing the puppy since it is being delivered by their friends, so that shouldn't be an issue.  I would just rather make final payment on delivery rather than everything in advance.

I still think it is most odd for a pup to be delivered -how does the breeder even know they like you as a potential new owner? If they were in the UK I am sure everyone would find it suspicious. But if all else is fine and they are doing all of this, even delivering the pup, then I'd be most surprised if they did NOT want payment up front. It will cost them a lot for the passport and the journey alone. Why don't you just fly over to meet the breeder and the pup before it is ready to go? Then you'd know everything was fine, and so would they.

I exported a pup this year. I had been in e-mail contact with the buyer for years in advance, and she had been on my waiting list for 2 years. She came fully recommended by my mentor in the breed who had sold her 2 dogs in the past, both now oldies. As I knew so much about her I said I didn't want the purchase price in advance but she did pay me all the vet costs involved. Plus she came to visit before pup was ready to go so I had met her and she had met the pup, and then in the end it was her choice to pay for the pup before she got him. She signed my contract when she was here.

Well I have imported, and always paid up front.

I have also more often exported, and expected full payment at 8 weeks of age including out of pocket expenses (Pet Passports, titre testing, vaccinations etc), and a contribution to pups keep beyond 10 weeks of age, but I only charge normal puppy price when exporting.

When exporting you are facing a lot more time and expense, when you could just as easily have homed a pup locally.

I imported a dog a few years ago n ow before the changes to the pet passport. I went out to Europe met the breeder and the puppies. I paid for the puppy in full on the first visit. I paid the expenses for keeping the puppy in stages  until it was old enough to come into the country then paid the balance  when I picked him up.

I would say definitely you should expect to pay for the puppy before hand. The breeder will need to keep the puppy, have the vaccinations and chipping done and pay the travel costs. They wont want to do all tat if there is a chance you might change your mind once the puppy gets here.

In my breed 20% of the dogs in the UK were imported and yes it's completely normal to pay the full price upfront. It's also quite normal in our numerically small breed for other owners (who aren't connected to the pup) to transport a pup from one country to another if they happen to be going that way.

If you trust these people enough to want a pup from them then you should have no problem trusting them enough to pay upfront.

My own import I paid his purchase price as soon as I seen his 6 week stacked photos, having booked pick of litter 2 years before he was born. In the time between those 6 week photos and collecting him at 4 months I also paid the breeder his vet costs, passport, inoculations etc.

Your name suggests the breed, so wonder why you would import when there is a selec
tion of lines in the the UK?

I paid the full amount for my pup upfront without seeing him beforehand. Didn't even question it to be honest as that's what's to expect when importing IMO.

ETA: I had to wait about a week or two after my puppy arrived for the export pedigree too, but the breeder was very efficient in getting that sorted ASAP.

We paid upfront for our import, the export ped was with the puppy along with his puppy pack, i did lots of research into the breeder whom has a great reputation and has sent dogs all over Europe. I trusted the breeder we went to 100%, one must remember that trust has to go both ways, you have to trust the dog you have chosen will actually arrive and they have to trust that you will love and look after the dog.

When I get another import I will fully expect to pay upfront, and vise versa I will not export without full payment.

There seem to be a lot of people importing puppies in my breed (Cockers) from Europe (particularly Eastern European countries) lately from breeders who are not well known but advertise a lot on FB or have pretty websites - some of these purchases turn out fine no doubt but I do know other buyers who have been disappointed (probably because they didn't actually know much about the lines they are importing and have come across problems they didn't know were there when they imported). That's not to say it's wrong to import - we have done this ourselves but only from a breeder we already knew (and had built up a relationship with) and had met (and most importantly had seen her dogs in the flesh not just pictures of them). When the full purchase price should be paid is something that should be agreed upon beforehand - I agree it's not unusual for the full purchase price to be paid up front (particularly when puppies are being exported from commercial kennels) and if that's what has been agreed, then that's what should be done but personally I would not import any puppy without visiting the breeder involved first and meeting their dogs etc. In the same way, I would not export a puppy to someone I had not met beforehand - I am really not comfortable with the way puppies are now being bought and sold internationally without any of the parties involved knowing each other or anything much about their dogs (apart from what they've been told via the internet)

I'd not really question the up front payment required.  HOWEVER, given how many imports seem to be coming from E.Europe, and especially Hungary at the moment, I'd be very careful.   And if possible, if you can't go over there yourself in person, find somebody you trust who will go into this kennel and look at the puppies, adults, meet the breeders and see how they rear /keep their stock.   I imported from the UK into Canada when we were living out there - for the BLOODLINES and from two breeders I knew personally.   And even then in the case of our foundation bitch, I had the friend/breeder of our second hound (this was our third) go into the kennel and help that  breeder choose what they both felt was 'the best' to send to me.

It's up too you, but with respect, surely there is a wide enough gene pool in Cockers (is this the breed?) in the UK without needing to import?

Again this may be perfectly 'legit', and I'm sure there is a puppy (I think!!) but given some of the stories I've heard about re puppies from Hungary, I'd not just assume this is going to work out.

Put yourself in their position: would you want to send a puppy to an unknown on the basis of a deposit only? I wouldn't.

> Put yourself in their position: would you want to send a puppy to an unknown on the basis of a deposit only? I wouldn't.

But would you send a puppy to an unknown in the first place? Whether someone was willing to pay up front would be the least of my worries!

But would you send a puppy to an unknown in the first place?

LOL JaneS--no I wouldn't (but to be fair to the OP she did say they weren't unknown to each other, so my reply was a bit misleading)! I've just been having this very conversation and despite being asked to export a puppy to the US I don't want to do it at all.

My partner exports a few dogs each year to the USA and Europe. Occasionally especially if in Europe the owners will visit prior but not from the USA. Yes we do expect payment upfront and would not export without full payment. If for example we exported a fully trained Gundog to the USA without payment and the owners for whatever reason did not like or want the dog, how would we get it back? We would incur many thousands of pounds of expense plus lost thousands of pounds for the dog.
I fully understand why the breeders would want payment up front, if I were them I certainly would not be making a journey to the uk on what may be a wing and a prayer.

The breeder of our foundation bitch really wanted me to go back to the UK to pick her.  As it was, I had the breeder of our second hound, who was a mutual friend, go into her kennel and between they picked what they hoped was the right bitch to send out to me in Canada.   As I recall, and it's ions ago now, I paid up front.    When I sold one to the friend of a friend in Switzerland, I flew with him, staying with my friend out there for a long weekend.   I was paid on arrival at my puppy's new home - the balance.  They'd sent me a deposit to book him which was fair enough because I ran him on until he was 4 months as I wasn't willing to fly him any younger.   I was really bothered about whether they'd not like him (photos were sent ahead of time) however, and what I'd then do - no Pet Passport at the time.   Otherwise I did no exporting - and I know the breeder of our foundation bitch didn't normally either.   Any from her kennel that went abroad - and she did sell a number to European breeders - only went if they were picked, and collected.

> LOL JaneS--no I wouldn't (but to be fair to the OP she did say they weren't unknown to each other, so my reply was a bit misleading)! I've just been having this very conversation and despite being asked to export a puppy to the US I don't want to do it at all.

I know the feeling - we have turned down many requests for exports as not willing to take the risk with people we don't know. These days people think they know each other if they "talk" on Facebook but they don't really as anyone can pretend to be anything they like on social media - scary!

we have turned down many requests for exports as not willing to take the risk with people we don't know

JaneS, in this case it was more that the culture of using professional handlers in the US means that the dog is far more likely to live with the handler--plus the way dogs are campaigned week after week just makes me feel I want a different life for any puppies we may have :-(

I think it makes sense to pay upfront considering the expenses it would cost them to deliver the pup to you.

Last year I imported a pup from Hungary and paid upfront (albeit in 3 stages). I was asked for my passport number for the export pedigree. I wondered about this but was asked to do this on a pup I fostered from Italy and my name was on the export pedigree before she went to Australia.
I would expect to pay upfront in situations like this.

Hi, just a little update.  My little import arrived last week, and I'm very pleased with her.  She is a little darling, beautiful in health and temperament.  I did end up paying upfront in the end, as the breeder wouldn't have it any other way.  However, I have to disagree with the majority of persons here who say it is appropriate to pay in full upfront.  From a seller or exporter's perspective, of course I understand that it is preferable to be paid upfront.  However, any decent breeder here knows that the value of a pedigree registered dog is not just in the dog itself but in the documentation that comes with the dog.  For the imported dog, the most important pieces are the export pedigree and the passport.  In my case, the breeder wanted me to pay upfront and wait for the export pedigree to come later. Fortunately, this came shortly after the dog, but I've heard of cases where people have waited over 6 months for the export pedigree.  I would have preferred either a) the dog and proof of all documents completed before I paid upfront or b) to pay a last installment of say 15-20% of the purchase price once all documents had been completed if the dog was being exported ahead of documents.  If I were exporting myself, I would be happy for this arrangement.

The trouble with paying upfront is that while it's great for the seller/breeder, it offers no protection for the buyer.  There are so many things that can go wrong.  For example, what if the breeder made mistakes with the vaccinations or documents so the dog didn't make it through the UK border and got taken into quarantine?  I doubt if the breeder/seller would agree to pay for the quarantine costs.  The buyer would be stuck with the bill and the problem of possibly a dog stuck 6 months in quarantine.  Or, what if the breeder was dishonest and the export pedigree never came. Then one would have paid perhaps thousands for a pedigree dog without the proper documents for registration.

When I asked my breeder why they couldn't wait for the export pedigree before sending the pup, their explanation was that it is customary to send the pup beforehand without the export pedigree.  From all the responses to the thread as well as other persons I've spoken who have imported, this seems to be true.  However, just because it is customary, I don't think it is right. In the end, it is a business transaction, and there should be a degree of leverage for the buyer in case things go pear-shaped. The transaction should not be based on trust alone. I'm a breeder myself, and I would never expect full payment if I wasn't able to provide all items promised, not just pup but any documents, at point of sale.  This is why the advice on buying pedigree dogs domestically is always to receive the registration docs before full purchase, not just to take promises on trust.  I think the same should apply for imported/exported dogs, but if exporting breeders continue to view it customary to expect payment upfront, then this will just leave the door wide open for scammers to take advantage or buyers to end up paying for exporters' mistakes.  In a poorly regulated industry such as dog breeding, it's easy to demand payment upfront, but I'm just putting it out there since this is Champdogs for responsible breeders that perhaps the custom of expecting payment upfront for imported/exported dogs should change, as it would make buying/selling dogs internationally a bit safer for everyone.  Sorry, I went on much longer than I planned...

>This is why the advice on buying pedigree dogs domestically is always to receive the registration docs before full purchase, not just to take promises on trust.

Actually it's customary to pay in full at the time of collection, and if documents aren't yet ready to get a signed declaration that they are to follow. This would be the same for export as well as a domestic sale. Nobody should expect to receive a puppy that they haven't paid for in full. It's not unheard-of for people to default on payment once they've received the goods, in any sale.

I have always had all paperwork sorted out to go with pups I have exported though none have left at the point I had payment (which I expect at 8 weeks).

As for export pedigree this process has always been started but at least with the UK is dependent on the transfer of ownership being completed by new owner first, so I have always sent the application for the export pedigree to the owner for when they have done this.

Why would a breeder withhold required documents, they surely have a reputation, which is why you bou8ght from them, and would want to protect it.  As a buyer you may or may not have any such reputation to loose.

When sorting out importation I have myself made sure that the seller has completed every bit of paperwork, sent requirements for pet passports double checked that things were done on correct dates etc.purchased the pedigree of the sire (when using overseas dogs) etc.

With exports too, but I have always used a reliable shipping agent (actually a KC general committee member etc) so I only had to deal with KC paperwork and ensuring vaccinations titre testing dates were done at correct times while liaising with export people.

I charge only for the puppy and additional costs due to export, and actual shipping etc is between the shipping agent and buyer

To be fair if I am exporting I really am taking an extra risk/worry and a lot more time and trouble, I could sell the puppy locally for a lot less trouble, and knowing if a homing went wrong I was easily able to help out..

>In a poorly regulated industry such as dog breeding

The kind of breeders here on champdogs, and that we would be dealing with are not involved in an industry but in a serious hobby passion.

If it was purely about business then none of us would import or export as it is financially uneconomic and risky.

Nobody should expect to receive a puppy that they haven't paid for in full. It's not unheard-of for people to default on payment once they've received the goods, in any sale.

Yes, but my point is that if all the promised goods, ie not just the puppy but the accompanying documentation, have not been received, the reverse should also be true and the seller should not expect to be paid in full until they have supplied everything promised, both documents and dog.  A written contract is helpful of course, but for an international transaction, I imagine it must be quite difficult to pursue the seller if things go wrong.  If a buyer defaults on final payment of last 15-20%, the seller could at least withhold the outstanding important documents.

Out of curiosity, I wonder how thoroughbred horses are bought and sold internationally.  Do they have lawyers  or solicitors writing up contracts/agreements and confirming exchange/payments like when people buy/sell houses?  I imagine people who breed and sell racehorses also view it as a serious hobby passion and love their horses like we love our dogs, but they also view it as a business and expect much closer monitoring of transactions and and sounder proof of bloodline documents given the huge amounts of money involved.  Of course, using lawyers is likely too much to ask in buying/selling of pedigree dogs, but I just feel that the current custom of paying upfront for imported dogs without receiving full documentation and confirmation of safe passage through borders is really unfair and unsafe for the buyer and leaves the international system too open to fraud or missale.

I think we will have to agree to disagree.  In the end you accept or don't accept the sellers terms, as it's a private transaction.  Very few good breeders are registered on a business basis or would want to be.

I'm not sure what being registered on a business basis has to do with anything.  I'm just speaking generally about any money changing hands for goods promised, in this case a puppy with all proper documentation.  Whether it's a puppy, a horse, a car, or any item, if any money is being exchanged, it's a business transaction.  It may be being done between private individuals as a private transaction, but I think there should be greater accountability from the seller is all I'm trying to put across.  If it became customary for the seller to accept final payment once all goods including documents had been exchanged or supplied proof thereof, then this would make it easier to make it easier for buyers to hold sellers to account and also to spot suspicious breeders if they were unwilling to either supply all docs before full payment or to accept a small final payment once exchange of all goods, including documents, had been exchanged or supplied proof thereof. There should also be clauses in contracts to protect buyers as to what happens if a dog doesn't make it through borders due to seller error.

>If it became customary for the seller to accept final payment once all goods including documents had been exchanged or supplied proof thereof, then this would make it easier to make it easier for buyers to hold sellers to account and also to spot suspicious breeders if they were unwilling to either supply all docs before full payment or to accept a small final payment once exchange of all goods, including documents, had been exchanged or supplied proof thereof.

Why would a breeder go to the additional trouble and expense of arranging export documents, transport, extra health certificates and so forth without the payment up front? If the buyer changes their mind at any stage then they're more out of pocket and have yet more expense and trouble to transfer the puppy back into their own name. If a buyer is as suspicious about the breeder as this perhaps they're buying from the wrong person?

When you buy a second hand car you do not have all the documentation until you transfer it all to your name you get a slip as promise of same. 

So when you buy a KC registered puppy with no endorsements on the papers, you then apply for the Export pedigree once it is in your name.

I have never sold or exported a puppy without it's kennel club registration documents.

As for travel arrangements those really are up to the buyer to arrange with the breeder/seller being reimbursed for any out of pocket expenses, ditto pet Passport, the breeder can prepare the dog and get this done, but it would be foolish to do all this with no certainty.

When you imported your puppy you still have to register the puppy with the Kennel Club as an imported dog and to do that you simply need a certified pedigree from the country it's coming from, and that you would expect to have before the pup is old enough for sale. So you simply check that the registration papers are to hand.

Why would a breeder go to the additional trouble and expense of arranging export documents, transport, extra health certificates and so forth without the payment up front? If the buyer changes their mind at any stage then they're more out of pocket and have yet more expense and trouble to transfer the puppy back into their own name. If a buyer is as suspicious about the breeder as this perhaps they're buying from the wrong person?

I don't think it should bother a breeder if they only receive 80%-85% up front then be willing to accept the final balance when the export pedigree and any other outstanding documents are completed.  I think this is more fair to the buyer and more honest of the seller.  The buyer would still be paying the majority up front and would lose this or their deposit if they changed their mind on the puppy.

In any case, I see that I'm in the minority here so I'll just give up and agree to disagree.

>>If a buyer is as suspicious about the breeder as this perhaps they're buying from the wrong person?>>

That's what I was thinking JG

"When I asked my breeder why they couldn't wait for the export pedigree before sending the pup, their explanation was that it is customary to send the pup beforehand without the export pedigree.  From all the responses to the thread as well as other persons I've spoken who have imported, this seems to be true.  However, just because it is customary, I don't think it is right."

Just to say that for the dog I recently imported I received the export pedigree, direct from the national kennel club, two months before the dog arrived and long before I sent the final payment. So it's not unheard of/impossible.