Hi all at champ dogs! I am a new member but certainly not new to the content. I have been researching the breeding of my mini daxi for 10 months now & the volume of responses to my "googling" which have led me to this forum are astounding. In tandem to my googling I have been reading articles & papers on Google scholar, supplemented by reading physical literature I.e. The book of the bitch etc etc.
I have found champ dogs extremely useful thus far, being that I am an amateur and not a professional breeder esp. For the anecdotal & pervasive info. comprised within the forum. As such I though I would be best employed to join the forum seeing as I have spent much time reading members' posts (esp. "Brainless")

Perhaps before I jump into my canvassing advice, I better introduce my circumstances;
I am from the UK originally but have lived in Switzerland for 2 years, with of course my pride and joy. I have brought her back to the UK for breeding where she shall stay until post whelping/ weaning and pending her return to normal fitness to fly (in the cabin) back to Zurich with me. I drove back with her as soon as she showed signs of coming into season. My Swiss vet obviously gave her an appropriate wormer (& confirmed proestrus) to enable our return to the UK.
Upon arrival I took her for a pre-mate exam with my UK vet, additionally I instructed a lab ovulation test. This was to be the first of many as she ended up having a split season. All in all I have had 4 lab and 2 in-house ovulation tests over a 4 week period. On day 32 she was deemed ready for mating and was taken to the stud on 2 separate occasions, 3 days apart. She is 6 weeks on Friday, her pregnancy confirmed by ultra sound 22.09.14.

I do hope my amateur status shan't infuriate any of those professional members of the forum and that I shan't be met with hostility or distain. This is to be her first and only litter (she shall be spayed in Switzerland at some point next year). My mother shall be keeping one female and, if providence permits, perhaps there shall be another little girl for me to keep. This is by no means any sort of unscrupulous or pecuniary exercise & the most important thing to me is the health of my bitch, everything else is ancillary.

Thank you for allowing me to introduce my situation, I know it's lengthy but from reading the questions posed by others, I have noted that any hostility is usually attributed to a lack of info provided by the OP.

MY QUERIES ARE AS FOLLOWS;

Ought I really switch her to puppy food if she's still happy to eat with her usual vigour & in sufficient quantitiy; her normal feed & therefore achieving her kj/ nutrient quota (Combination of balanced Raw & grain free kibble)?

As to the worming, my vet recommended drontal but nowhere am I able to find solace in published lit. Re its pertinence to pregnant bitches. I see there is much debate on the subject esp. on champ dogs but I cannot quantify the risk of;
a) an approved wormer for which there's anecdotal evidence of problems (panacur)
Vs. b) an unapproved wormer which has seemingly less incidence of problems (drontal)
How did others here make an informed choice?

For now that's it. I thank you all in advance for your help and assistance and would like to emphasise once again that I do not consider myself by any means a professional and it has been my intention to always return this bitch to the UK to have a single litter. I couldn't have done much more research than I have & indeed some of the culpability of my indecision over the questions posed is due to over thinking things and perhaps a little too much research.

I have always used Panacur 10% suspension from day 40 of pregnancy.  Given daily until 2 days post whelping.  While people will say that they won't put a huge burden on their bitches for such a long time.  My reply is always that it is only a quarter dose being given. 

If it ain't broke don't try and fix it.  I have used for many, many years with several toy breeds and have never found a problem.

Of course there are going to be plenty of people who will argue otherwise.  That is what Champdogs is all about.  :-)

1.  I have never understood why people seem to think pregnant bitches need 'puppy food'.   For me, puppy food is for puppies!!!   I have mine on a good quality food, regardless of whether a mating is planned or not.   And although I might add some extra protein (meat) during the pregnancy, and certainly towards the end, split the two meals a day all my adults normally have, into maybe more even smaller meals, depending on the size of the bitch (with a big litter, there's less and less room inside for a big meal!), that's all my pregnant bitches have.   Once I know /see how many puppies she has to cater for, then I start to pile in the food - but again the usual good quality food.
2.  I worm before mating, along with bringing boosters utd, if needed.   I worm her again 2 weeks after the puppies arrive, at the same time I start worming the puppies, which I do using a gentle worming syrup every 2 weeks to the time they go home at 10 weeks.   I have never wormed during pregnancy.

ps   I'd not feed raw as well as dry food - the two are digested differently.

Good luck with your litter - it sounds as if you have already put a lot of work in so I hope you get what you hope for.

Just like MamaBas, I worm just before mating and never during pregnancy -I use Drontal as I really don't like Panacur. I worm the pups with Drontal puppy suspension. I also am one who will not feed a pregnant or nursing bitch puppy food -one of mine got such an upset stomach from it it very nearly killed her. I just give the same food as usual, but add a few meals.

>ps   I'd not feed raw as well as dry food - the two are digested differently.

I think that is an old wives tale. I certainly know many dogs over the years who have been fed both at the same time, including my own, and have not come to any harm.

> I think that is an old wives tale.

Me too.
Think back to when dogs were fed raw tripe & mixer biscuit together. Some people still do.

Raw tripe and mixer biscuits - yes but mixer biscuits are not 'complete'.   Each to their own but I've read in many places, that if you feed a raw diet, you shouldn't mix it up with a complete diet.   And this came from people who promote raw feeding.

> And this came from people who promote raw feeding.

Of course they say that - many of them are quite extreme in their views. Mixer contains 'grains', the latest foodstuff of the devil ;-) and so is considered by some to be equally toxic.

With regard to worming, I will be using a worm count kit in the last few days before my bitch is due to whelp. My vet  (and the worm count folk) reckon there is little point in worming a bitch in whelp because worm larvae, if present, remain encysted until hormonal changes trigger their hatch--as far as my vet is concerned, unless there is evidence of a worm burden then it's better to leave worming till after the litter is born.

I feed raw and a gluten free mixer biscuit. My bitch also gets a small meal of a wet complete food topped up with a bit of ox heart or offal, just because she likes it. She was reared on RC but now hates it :-p so I need to think about weaning this litter onto something their new families will be willing to cope with...

> Mixer contains 'grains', the latest foodstuff of the devil ;-) and so is considered by some to be equally toxic.

I've fed mine grain with raw for 15 years - never had a problem. They have also eaten all sorts of different food at the same time - eg. eating all the odds and ends of food from the fridge :)

I feed raw but have mixed kibble and raw at times. Muscle meat and bone digest at different rates so can't see it would be a problem if raw and kibble digested at different rates. I have fed raw for 9 years now and sometimes feed kibble for the odd meal which helps out when away camping with the dogs in my tent and unable to keep meat fresh for any great length of time.

>My vet  (and the worm count folk) reckon there is little point in worming a bitch in whelp because worm larvae, if present, remain encysted until hormonal changes trigger their hatch-

And that's exactly why I do worm in pregnancy; the hormonal changes trigger the encysted larvae to develop and migrate to infect the bitch and the unborn litter.

Jeangenie, what they were recommending was to wait till the last few days of pregnancy (to use the worm count kit, because you could get a false result early on, ie seemingly worm-free).

>Think back to when dogs were fed raw tripe & mixer biscuit together.

You remember those days too? :-)  :-)

>wait till the last few days of pregnancy (to use the worm count kit, because you could get a false result early on, ie seemingly worm-free

Exactly; by the time there is evidence of worms in the poo (and even in quite heavy worm burdens you can get the occasional evidence-free sample) the unborn whelps would already have been infected. That's exactly what a low dose from earlier in pregnancy (after the pups are fully formed but just need to grow) prevents.

This place kind-of amuses me.   Clearly there are people here with strong views, in every direction (not the least being me!!).  All I can offer is what works/worked for me which is probably the same for all of us.  That doesn't mean I'm wrong, or right for that matter?!

And in this instance, I worm before mating and again at 2 weeks after whelping (the bitch obviously).   I have rarely if ever, seen worms from either bitch, or her puppies.

And I'd not mix a raw diet with a complete diet.  I'd not use a raw diet, point of fact, because I'm not confident enough to know I'd be feeding a balanced raw diet- at least it's, supposedly, 'all in the bag'.  And I don't believe in the need to feed a pregnant/post-whelping bitch 'puppy food' either.

FWIW.

Question for Jeangenie (serious question - not an argument)

If you are using panacur to worm bitch from 40 days or so to prevent worms in unborn/newborn pups. And according to Brainless, panacur kills the worms and they are absorbed and therefore not seen in poo. You then worm the pups with panacur at the appropriate intervals.

How do you know or not, if the puppies had a worms because you would not see them as they would be killed in intestines and absorbed? Therefore, according to my thinking, they could have just as many worms as pups that were born from dams that were not wormed with panacur?

'If what I am asking makes sense?'

I'm not sure I entirely understand (me being dim!) but I've seen enough litters through work from bitches that weren't wormed during pregnancy to not risk it for my own. Some have such a worm burden by 3 weeks that the toxins released by the dying worms when the pups are eventually treated that they're lucky to survive. You can often actually feel the squidginess of a wormy belly in a young pup, and the bloated belly is characteristic and different from the round tummy following a meal.

I'm not 'too clever' myself these days LOL.

I wormed my bitch immediately before mating and wouldn't dream of using panacur (personal choice)  - no way would I have got it down her anyway as she virtually starved herself the whole of the pregnancy.

I then wormed with drontal puppy at three weeks. No sign of worms in poo. No signs of worms in puppies prior to worming. Definitely no 'staring' coats - coats growing thick and glossy. Pups thriving.

What I was asking is: according to Brainless (possibly others) panacur masks worms as they are digested and not passed 'visually' as with other wormers, so you wouldn't really know - other than physical signs, if the puppies were actually worm free using the panacur protocol.

I do understand what you mean about 'heavy worm burdens'. I use to live in Africa and took  a stray German Sheperd bitch from the local SPCA who had been found living rough. Terrible state. She was found to be pregnant a week after I got her - 12 pups 10 days later. Vet wormed the pups at 2 weeks and they all passed 'solid spagetti'. I assum that the mum had never been wormed, and probably her mum before her etc. etc.

>What I was asking is: according to Brainless (possibly others) panacur masks worms as they are digested and not passed 'visually' as with other wormers, so you wouldn't really know - other than physical signs, if the puppies were actually worm free using the panacur protocol.

Drontal is the same - the worms die and decompose/become 'digested' and not seen.

Jeangenie, if that is the case, then other than glaringly obvious physical signs in a puppy, one would never know if the puppy was 'wormy' or not.

Welcome.

I have never encountered problems using Panacur 10% at the correct dosage through pregnancy.

the only problem I have ever encountered is worming puppies early (considering Mum was done in pregnancy, and any worm burden should be minimal in pups) being done at 2 and 5 weeks.

I had previously only done at 4 and 8 weeks without issues.

So after the problem litter when I followed advice for 2, 5 and 8 weeks worming I have adapted my schedule to worming the bitch, then pups at 21 - 23 days, then at 7 weeks so they have time for tummies to settle before leaving for new homes.

On your breeding plans I do think it is a shame after all the trouble you have gone to breed this litter, if the puppies from a breed contribution point of view,  end up a dead end. 

Generally I would hope that your were planning to breed to establish a breeding line, otherwise if the aim is not to make an active contribution to further the breed and it's gene pool, then purely for the aim of having another pet, it is cheaper and less of a risk to your bitch to buy in a puppy.

So I do hope that you or your Mum plan t take this breeding forward into the next generation with her daughter, or alternatively are able to place the best pups in homes that can make use of so much effort on your part.

Being a companion is the most important task for any puppy, but contributing to the healthy continuance of it's breed is also needed.

I then advise new owners to worm at 11 weeks so it does not coincide with vaccination, so putting less stress on an immature system.

>then other than glaringly obvious physical signs in a puppy, one would never know if the puppy was 'wormy' or not.

Exactly so. If they actually pass adult worms then you know they've been infected for several weeks.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">My vet  (and the worm count folk) reckon there is little point in worming a bitch in whelp because worm larvae, if present, remain encysted until hormonal changes trigger their hatch--

That is why Panacur is used at the point the encysted larvae are able to transfer.  Panacur can deal with early larval stages that other wormers don't.  This can result on a 98% decrease in transference to pups.

So I'd agree I'd never give a wormer that only worked on mature worms, in pregnancy as it would be a waste fo time..

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">If you are using panacur to worm bitch from 40 days or so to prevent worms in unborn/newborn pups. And according to Brainless, panacur kills the worms and they are absorbed and therefore not seen in poo. You then worm the pups with panacur at the appropriate intervals.<br />

I imagine in clinical trials they would worm half of the bitches, and not the other half, and then not worm the pups until they were at an age to be passing mature worms (I think it is about 3 - 4 weeks after whelping).

By comparing the amount of worms each group had should show the difference in treated and untreated mothers pups.

Hi JeanSW thanks for your advice. This seems logical- such a low dose must mitigate the risk of any problems. This reasoning is what has led me to doubt others I.e. Drontal as there isn't published dosage guidance for pregnant bitches. I don't think I would even be questioning use of the Panacur but for all the neg opinions of it. Thank you for your help I really appreciate it.

I'm fairly certain that, before Panacur was said to be safe for pregnant bitches, that tests had been pretty rigorous.  For some reason I feel that it had been tested for far higher doses, with no ill effects.

Hi MamaBas
Thank you for your help. May I ask though do you not allow your bitch to consume any puppy food even when the pups are being weaned? If so do you provide puppy food to them at all or do you wean them onto a variation of what the bitch eats?
The reason I ask is because I had aspirations of leaving a suitable food down for my bitch which the pups could also eat, therefore enabling ease of transition onto proper food (if they are able to eat the food I leave for mum, then perhaps they will help themselves to these pup apt offerings). If this is a viable option, then I thought it best to intro the new puppy food prior to whelping: to give her a gradual introduction to get accustomed to the puppy food that shall be given to the pups.
Should all my pondering here be a lot of nonsense and there is no need for me to allow her to consume puppy food in any event, how can I ensure she won't eat the pups' food at such time as I leave it for them? 

Agree re combining the food. I conjure up balanced (nutritionist/vet guided) raw meals for her but I never combine this with the kibble in the same meal. Tbh I would knock off the kibble all together if it weren't so convenient; she travels with me everywhere and it's just not practical to feed raw in those circs, so I just keep her on a single meal of it daily so I don't have probs with her when travelling.

Thanks for your help, I hope I've explained my logic re the puppy food so you know what I'm asking?? I'm trying my best :)

Thanks Brainless, I take your points on board for panacur, that seems to be the right choice for me given now what I've read. In particular I feel more at ease using a wormer approved for use in pregnant bitches. I shall follow your schedule too for worming pups.
Another query I have is that; ought my mother's dogs (Weimaraners) be wormed In tandem to my daxi & if so Do I use the panacur or can they continue to use the regular wormer they have at present? Is it the case that if their wormer has the same efficacy against the same worms as Panacur, then it's fine to continue with what they have usually? (Her dogs were last wormed in June)

Re the breeding line: it is my mothers intention to show & breed from the bitch she retains IF she is a suitable specimen. This is why mum has first pick, if there is another female then I keep would keep her but she would be a pet.
When I approached the lady who has the stud dogs (she also judges the breed), I asked her from a pedigree and conformation POV of my bitch (the stud has several CCs & is a champion) is it possible that there'd be a pup, that would be suitable to show. Her answer was that even if two champions are bred then this does not necessitate the progeny will have desirable characteristics for the breed from a show perspective. She also stated that there was enough good stock through her pedigree to suggest that breeding from her would be far from an exercise in futility.
Further she has agreed for me to take the pups over to her, so she can pick the best specimen in the litter (she informs me this is somewhat difficult when they are only a few weeks old but nevertheless is happy to do so).

I will love whatever she produces, show quality or not & so too shall my mother; she would keep a female whether or not it could be shown or bred from in future. If it's anything like horses then I am hoping for the best but expecting the worst! How does the adage go? The best laid plans.. But I suppose we all have to start somewhere & had I not moved abroad I would have had a go at showing my bitch. She is a little big weight wise 2lbs over the max to show, but obviously I don't try to keep a pet in show condition. 
Believe me when I say that if this whole exercise were only to yield another pet then from solely a cost perspective I could've purchased more than the average litter size for what it's cost to date. I believe what I am doing is called a "love job" or an illness depending on how you look at it!

>For some reason I feel that it had been tested for far higher doses, with no ill effects.

You're absolutely right.

My bitches were always fed OUTSIDE the whelping box.  Once the puppies were being weaned, using a good quality puppy food (lol) they were fed in the box, and after they'd finished, move off, mum was let back in to clean up and yes of course, in the unlikely event there was some food left, including that.    I'd not leave her food down in the whelping box.   She needs to be able to eat in peace - of course the puppies will be attracted to her food, but she could well snap at them if they tried to approach her dish.   Clearly you don't want that!!

Weaning, for us, began by around the end of week 3, into week 4.   We'd hold each individual puppy on our knee (on a towel because it gets messy!) and teach them to lap using warmed goats milk.   At this point I also gave each puppy a very tiny (enough to cover a thumb nail) ball of lean good mince (hamburger if you prefer!).  Only once a day although they loved this and the temptation was to give more - don't.   Warm milk would be offered probably 4 times a day, but at this early stage, most of their nourishment came from mum still.   After a while, once they could lap, and assuming the teeth were pretty much through, I added a good quality puppy food, mixing into a porridge with either warmed goats milk, or just water.   Again I'd make sure each individual puppy could get into it okay (messy again) before filling a purpose made puppy dish (circular with a knob in the middle to lift up and down) and putting it down in the middle of the whelping box for them all to get around - any smaller weaker puppies would need to be helped so they got their fair share.

>The reason I ask is because I had aspirations of leaving a suitable food down for my bitch which the pups could also eat, therefore enabling ease of transition onto proper food (if they are able to eat the food I leave for mum, then perhaps they will help themselves to these pup apt offerings

Great minds...............................  :-)

I am always shown by the dogs themselves what they are ready for.  My bitches are fed in the whelping box once the pups are born.  Knowing how difficult it is to get my breed to leave pups, even for a wee, by feeding this way it negates the worry of such a small breed refusing to eat. 

I have actually had pups drag themselves over to mums food before they can stand.  It always starts with a tentative licking.  As my bitches are fed ad lib once they have whelped it is just a case of upping the quantities.  This has been the best regime for me, for more years than I can remember.

Yes it is a good idea to worm the other dogs the bitch ahs contact with.  I usually do all mien when the bitch comes in season, then when I worm the pups the others get done too, and then everyone gets done when all pups leave home..

Well it sounds like you have thought this through, and this will not be a futile exercise, though an expensive one, at all :)

Tell me about best laid plans and how the best pairings can be disappointing and vice versa.

I am glad though that hopefully after so much effort it may not be a dead end and you have the stud dog owners support in puppy selection etc.  Hope your Mum gets a super pup to show.

Also of course no reason you should not show yours, there are going to be shows in Switzerland.  it would be a good idea if you contact the Swiss kennel club and breed club, and register your bitch and pup there once you have your girl back home.