What I meant by COD was payment after service, not before.

As you say, some will send a bill for payment even later than at point of delivery.

I think I have only ever paid for goods, TV License, Road Tax (until next month when I will go monthly DD), and shows up front. 

I choose to pay the Car Insurance in instalments, but technically that's credit.

I keep being offered Credit Cards by both my banks, but having never applied don't know if I'd actually get one.  I always worry about security, as they seem less secure than my Debit card.

Apply and see......... don't see why not, and then put it away somewhere safe and forget about it, not to be used unless for an emergency for one of your dogs, don't carry it around in your handbag or purse and you can't be tempted to use it. :-) It would just be an extra safeguard for you and the value will go up whether you spend or not.

As for security, I know nothing is 100% but the card issuers don't expect you to pay for any fraud, just as with a debit card. :-)

Today, you can't trust many vets to have compassion or offer a payment plan, it never used to be like this, it's quite scary actually, it truly is just a business now for many and seeing how my friend was treated some will allow your animals to die, I agree georgepig it should be against their hippocratic oath, with my friends dog, the vets way around that, was that he wasn't going to let her dog die, he just wouldn't operate without full payment first, which amounted to the same thing as the dog (in an accident) was going to die without an op. Shameful, still can't get my head around it.

I feel so sorry for people who just can't get their hands on emergency money like that, but don't come under the criteria for charity either, there must be a lot of heartbreak going on out there, I've never experienced the like before........... but looks as though many are following suit.

I think I may do

I think I may do

I am fortunate my vets run and staff their own out of hours services and are relaxed about payment if they know you and I suppose that is the main difference if the service is supplied by a third party.

Although I can't see the job satisfaction in taking up a profession because one wishes to care for animals and their owners and then finding yourself in a situation where you are unable to follow your basic desire.

Think many of these out of hours vet services are not run by vets but by others who provide the money, employ the staff and make the rules, the result being unsatisfactory all round, both vets and clients dissatisfied and the only winners being those who invested their money. Sad state of affairs.

Brainless, when I returned to the UK I couldn't get a credit card as I had no credit history, I couldn't even get one of those high interest ones that stated they were specifically for people moving to the UK. I only wanted one so I could build up a credit score.

I applied for a Cashplus Prepaid MasterCard and added the credit builder option. They assign you a small loan on paper only and you set up a standing order to pay it off each month for 12 months I think. Each month they send a report to the credit agencies and your score goes up. They take a small part of your monthly payment as a fee and the rest goes on your card for you to use. After my year was up I just carried on the monthly payment and I just use it for Christmas presents for my boys. I pay 99p each time I use it or there is an option to pay £4.99 a month if you are going to use it frequently.

There is no interest charged as it is a pre-pay card, everyone gets accepted and it is a real MasterCard. It's a great way to have instant cash in an emergency.

The practice I have used all my life has always done their own 24/7 cover. I did ask one of the current partners if this would ever change & he said no way. They only employ vets that are willing to do 24/7 cover as their corporate ethic was complete care for their clients(the animals). None of the other vets in the area have continued to provide 24/7 cover except one new very very expensive one, whose fees for every visit include a consultancy fee, even if it is just for the vet to look at the animal & it's a minimum of £30 a visit !! You can't even buy over the counter medication(like wormers etc)without a consultation !!

The practice I use don't expect full payment for big bills to be paid immediately & have always allowed staged payments. They aren't the cheapest, but the Vets4Pets that has recently opened doesn't even have facilities to keep animals overnight !

vets have the duty to provide emergency treatment even if a client is unable to pay. this means painrelief and in a severe case euthanasia.
so you can not prosecute a vet for cruelty if he or she is not prepared to operate or give any expensive intensive treatment if they don't trust a client enough to pay at a later date.
this has nothing to do with compassion,many vets are indeed very frustrated because they are unable to give the necessary treatment.
if a vet is presented lets say with a dog ooh who is in need of a caesarian which might cost up to £1500 and the client tells you they will not be able to settle the bill on discharge but promise to do so at a later time and can now give you £50 how is the vet supposed to deal with this? rely on a promise which he is likely to have heard many times before and made the experience that the bill was never setteled?
if this would not happen so many times vets might not have been forced to go down the route of asking for deposits to cover at least parts of their expenses.it is not that single client who just happens to have no money,it is the mass of clients who tell similar stories time and time again why they are just at the moment unable to pay without realising that vets have heard it all before and dread the moment they present a client with an estimate. suddenly the "oh I don't care how much it costs,just do anything you can" turns into a "how much?!""well I can't afford this, I am a pensioner,on benefit,a single mom,out of work,just lost my wallet,forgot my card at home,my mom,dad,nanny,sister,... will pay and you the nasty vet call me a liar and have no compassion,you are just after my money!"
strangely enough they don't say " yes,I have taken on an animal but actually have not wasted a moment to consider how I will settele any veterinary bills ,after all i don't even got it vaccinated and buy my flea and worm tx cheap off the internet and I just wanted one litter out of her to make a bit of money on the side ,never thought this might go wrong and now she needs a caesarian for how much!?"
those are the people who have destroyed the trust and make it harder for vets to allow payment plans for other honest clients ,so blame them and not the vets.
people moan about a £30 visit,"the vet has not even done anything",what they don't realise is that you pay for the consult time which would otherwise have been booked for another client,for the expertise of the vet and all the overheads which are calculated in the consult time.
again ,it is the duty and responsibilty of pet owners to have the means to provide for their pets,plan ahead for emergencies.

So if an animal is bleeding to death their only options available are pain relief which is surely not going to help; or euthanasia?? Even though the bleeding potentially could be stopped and the animal saved? Maybe they need a sign on the door saying 'if you haven't got at least £500 on your person please leave your pet here to die' Extreme I know but that is how it sounds to me.

I think the point is often an emergency is unforeseen and whilst the client may have the money available they may not have it at that very second so therefore it seems some are having to condemn their pet to pain or death when they DO have them means to pay for it but at 2am or whenever cannot physically get the cash. I feel sorry for the vets if they are put in that position by the business manager but I have absolutely no intention Of taking my dog to one of these practices. It seems completely barbaric. Perhaps the folk in charge need to spend some time on the shop floor as it were so they can see for themselves how traumatic it is for all involved (vet included) when the client doesn't have the funds at that moment.

If this truly is the picture of these OOH only places I can see why vets don't want to work on call if they are left with choices as above that seem based on the business policy.

Surely as vets are as you say a business they can chase non-payers afterwards like the majority of other places have to??

Agree, I have always settled my bills at the time of treatment, including a C section which was thankfully in hours t my own vet so only around £550 a few years ago.

My won vet did not expect the money there and  then though he was quite happy for me to pay when I came in to have stiches out, but I preferred to pay right away, using my debit card.

But £500 deposit???  I am sure some triage work and making an animal stable does not need to incur anywhere near such expense to the surgery.

After all the vets on call time is already being  factored in to surgery costs, whether the emergency came in or not, and any medication and equipment used up on the spot will already be in place and certainly not cause a loss of that amount if the client didn't pay, so normal attempts to get any monies owing can be applied.

These Out Of Hours Businesses will soon find themselves out of business I think when people realise and many will have to have their animals suffer until they can see their vet in business hours..

In some areas they are the only OH service for miles so have a monopoly on 'crisis' medicine.

£500 is a rather conservative sum, VN often ask for much more.

Technically the only reason that OOH treatment is more expensive is because it is 'out of hours' and the vet and staff have to make a special trip in.

If you're running an OOH service then logically those are your normal business hours so you're unjustified in charging more than the usual vet would charge for his daytime service ...

Can I just add that my experience was not OOH I took my dog to a normal appointment as she had been sick for a couple of days. It was only then I was told she needed emergency surgery the issue of a deposit was raised. Having Insurance I could not see what the problem was but the vet was unwilling to operate unless they got preapproval from the Ins. Co. or £500 up front. In fact the Insurance faxed through the approval later in the day whilst the dog was in recovery, but they do have to go through their own administration procedures.
When I have had a dog spayed or in another case when a dog needed surgery I was allowed to pay when I collected the dog.

I am not understandably with that vet now. I remember driving round crying really worried about my dog, looking for a Post Office or one with a PO machine outside to get the cash and dash back to the vets with it.
What if I had had an accident in my car, would they have let my dog die ?
Just felt that it was very shoddy, the way it was all dealt with, I can appreciate that vets may get bad debts or bad payers, but I had offered £200 up front, I only keep enough in my current account, to cover bills and everyday expenses and I can get up to £500 a day out of a Post Office machine and have Insurance so I thought I was covered.

So what is it that makers pet owners such a bad risk that vets feel compelled to ask for such a large advance before treating the pet? Do they ask for a similar amount from other animals whose bills are likely to be lower? And how quickly do they refund the balance if the treatment does not reach the amount extracted from the worried owner.

I must admit I really dont think I would be comfortable having my pet treated by a vet who could happily turn away a dying dog, or turf one out at close of the night shift regardless of condition. If my vet ever stops doing their own out of hours I would rather wait until the next normal day.

>If you're running an OOH service then logically those are your normal business hours so you're unjustified in charging more than the usual vet would charge for his daytime service ...

Well the dedicated OOH service providers around here charge £130+ for a consultation.

I recently ended up paying a £300 bill for a neighbours cat at 8pm, only £20 was for treatment needed, the rest was consultation and an x-ray to check for internal damage.  Inka had caught the cat and it had a minor puncture wound.

My vet doesn't do their own OOH cover and there are none in my area who do. VN are the only cover available. I don't mind travelling - the vet I use is a goodly distance from where I live and there are many others in between but I trust the surgery I use. They are open all weekend and late into the evening and appointments then are the same price as any other time.

A year ago I had an emergency situation arise which luckily occurred whilst I was at the vet's with another of my dogs for a routine vaccination. The dog who needed emergency treatment was in the waiting room and I noticed some blood on the floor underneath him - he had been an emergency admittance three days before with a blocked urethra and had a very large wound that took a lot of stitches to close it up. As I moved him away from the blood - which I thought had come from another patient - the wound split open and muscle and intestines started to come out of the wound - I was literally trying to hold it all in for him. The vet's were brilliant and he was taken straight in and operated on. This all happened five minutes before closing time at 8:00pm. I had to go back and collect him just before midnight and all three of the vets and two vet nurses had stayed on to help save his life despite it being well past their closing time. The cause of the rupture of the wound was a combination of an allergy to the stitches and the muscle disintegrating. It was pure chance that it happened where it did - if I had been at home I would have had to use the OOH cover and although my dogs are insured and I have money put aside in a savings account for emergencies I wouldn't have had instant access to that money as I don't routinely carry around the debit card for that account.  If it had happened on my way home I would have had to go to the OOH practice and they wouldn't have treated my dog without an upfront payment - he would have died. As it was he had to have some intestines and muscle removed as it couldn't be put back inside him due to being contaminated but a year later he is fit and well and doing agility.

Maybe I need to carry my dogs insurance policies around with me - in the middle of the night there wouldn't be anyone working at the insurance company to confirm my dogs are insured and I don't own a credit card.

Luckily the practice I work for still do their own OOH, and I'm always pointing out to them how much people value and appreciate it. I'll mention these extortionate costs people have to pay up front from these OOH services whenever they wonder about contracting out. Being on call is very hard on vets who want to spend time with their families occasionally.

In principle smila, I agree with many of your points, I have no worries about where I would find funds, (luckily) but we can't all be complacent like that, only when you see someone sobbing and panicking do you realise you have to be in-humane not to feel utterly upset and it can't continue on this road.

In practice as a country of animal lovers, it's a barbaric way of operating, a receptionist, nurse or vet stood there like a robot saying money or goodbye.......there has to be another way, it was never like this before.....

All that I can see happening is that some people will abandon sick and injured animals, or be left sobbing in the streets because their animals will have to die as they do not have the money upfront.

It's even a joke with insurance now, you're supposed to feel safe with insurance aren't you? There you are happily paying every month thinking it is ok, you go in for an op or emergency and many vets will still insist on payment first and then they send it off to claim, I know my vet has a sign up saying that, and I know when one of my mothers dogs had a small op there it took my vets 3 weeks to send off that form, the receptionist sheepishly looked at me when I went in to enquire and pulled out a pile of them, saying sorry she would get on it.... sheeesh! What about people who cannot afford to wait like that?

Does the vet care, do they heck......

If that happened with car insurance, well...... there would be cars all over the place with bits hanging off and large dents or never driven again....... as people wouldn't be able to pay upfront, when you have insurance you shouldn't have to still pay up first, you're no safer initially, some will be left panicking, and still in the same position as not having any.

Saying it's not the vets fault, people are 'stiffing' them all the time........ they still make plenty to cover for those few people, I don't believe there will be that many, when isn't a vets waiting room full?

No, it's just all about the money today........... and if you're out walking your dog and it has an accident breaking its leg.... needing surgery and that money is not there, where do these people turn, what terrible things will they end up doing today?

I think maybe it is time to run many vets like the NHS, belonging to a practice you could perhaps pay £15 a month, from owning an animal, (those with a concurring ailment perhaps more) I know until my animals are old they are never in the vets unless for a booster, if veterinaries had high interest accounts could that work? I don't know....... but I feel something needs to change somewhere, as having insurance initially is not much help either.

And seeing my friend sobbing like a baby at the thought of losing her dog, due to these rulings, I'll never forget it....vets shouldn't be doing this to people.............. when I was a child, vets cared about the animals they treated, no, they weren't wealthy, people didn't become vets to get wealthy, they became vets because they loved animals........ not like that today is it?

>if veterinaries had high interest accounts could that work?

If you know of any high interest accounts nowadays please let me know!

>people didn't become vets to get wealthy, they became vets because they loved animals........ not like that today is it?

Considering that they now start their careers saddled with a debt of about £30,000, no, it's certainly not to become rich.

>Considering that they now start their careers saddled with a debt of about £30,000, no, it's certainly not to become rich.

but their average starting salary is £21000-£33000 rising to £53000+ their wages are much higher certainly than mine. and no doubt a lot more than the wages of the people their patients. Vets are certainly not struggling to pay back that loan which amounts to say £1000 per year for a 30 year working life.
These OOH companies are holding the poorer amongst us to ransom by demanding such huge upfront payments with no flexibility.

Is this new mercenary attitude specific to small animal vets?

My horse ran up £10k of vet bills last year (over a period of a month or two). I was insured, but it was known by all parties that I was ultimately responsible and I would have paid every penny if the insurance hadn't.

The vet practice billed everything in arrears and actually offered to claim direct from the insurers so that I didn't have to pay first and then reclaim.

It seems like the small animal vet business, is moving (for emergencies) away from the usual pay after completion business model. Why? Are they becoming more grasping, are more clients not paying or is there some other reason?

Considering that they now start their careers saddled with a debt of about £30,000, no, it's certainly not to become rich.

My sons also have the same debt, as do all Uni students, even more....... you don't today even have to start paying it back until you have a job starting at £21,000 and then you pay back less than £100 a month, it's no hardship JG.

Pilots can start off with a £200,000 debt, but the amount they earn also does not take them long to pay it back.

You are right though, no high interest accounts today....... but I still think it is a better idea to pay your veterinary practice rather than an insurance company at least you would get treatment there and then from the people you are paying.

All I'm saying JG is that vets used to earn a pittance and they really cared about their animals and their clients.

Today in many practices, vets earn extremely good wages, but somehow it doesn't make them better people, they are losing compassion, the clients and animals are just pound signs...... something has gone terribly wrong.

Not all vets and not all practices I'd like to add, still some good people out there........ but its creeping up, £££ signs are blinding far too many, and it will only have one outcome, animals will suffer and good owners who love their animals will also.

It's very sad.........

>but their average starting salary is £21000-£33000 rising to £53000+

Remember that to get an average there will be some earning much less. £15,000, if the vet is actually being paid and not on an internship, is often quoted in the adverts in the vet magazines.

>Remember that to get an average there will be some earning much less. £15,000,

No. According to the site I looked at the average is 21000-33000 so 21000 IS the lower figure.
http://www.prospects.ac.uk/veterinary_surgeon_salary.htm

Do you mean that's the salary range? Because that's not true - there are vets that have a lower salary than that.

An average figure is higher than the lowest amount and lower than the highest amount. An average cannot be a range - it's not mathematically possible. I imagine that link is trying to say that the average in some regions is £21,000 and in other regions it is £33,000. However to get each of those averages there will be some that are paid less and some that are paid more.

Think of it like hip-scores; to get the breed average for a hypothetical breed there are dogs with a score of 0 and dogs with a score of 50, with the average somewhere between the two. The average for that breed isn't 0 - 50; that's the range.

It took a great leap of faith when these giant companies decided to break the mould of how we ( the great British public) saw emergency vet services.

When they sat round the table deciding to throw away the caring and compassionate face of their profession and go for the cash....I'm sure some never expected to get away with.

Timing is everything and most vets ( practice owners/partners) wanted their evenings off to spend their money with some lower paid vets topping up their salary by working the graveyard shift for Vets Now.

I'm sure many of these vets realise they have crossed a line.

Find it surprising that so many vets use these special ooh companies, do most no longer have dogs in the surgery over night, if they do then surely there will be a vet available to check these sick dogs at least a couple of times a night and therefore available for anyone ringing with an emergency. Well that seems to be how my vets work it.

I believe many Vets who use an OOH provider keep in overnight animals who are not fit enough to go home but in a stable condition. Any critically ill patients at the end of the day are moved out to the OOH provider and no new emergency cases are taken in during closed surgery hours. That way no Veterinary Surgeon needs to be on night duty and a Veterinary Nurse can monitor the in patients a couple of times during the night.

vets study 5 or 6 years depending on the Uni  and today it will cost them £9000/anum study fews plus living costs. if a vet want's to specialise it will take many more years and cost a lot more.
the salary for a new graduate will be around £ 20-25000/anum if they are lucky but this can be lower,a 10 years plus experienced vet might earn up to £45000/anum in the right location, after that the salary will be rather stagnant unless you become a partner or set up your own business but then you will have to invest a lot of money first.
prices have increased because a lot has changed, since the "good old days of James Herriot",you can't compare a practice anymore to what it used to be 20 years and more ago . treatment and diagnostic facilities have improved enorm and clients expectations aswell.
clients moan about £30 consultation fews but on the other hand expect gold standard facilities like in human hospitals while they shop around for the cheapest provider for things like vaccines,neuters aso buy anything possible like wormers on the internet,request prescribtions aso but equaly they want their own,trusted vet to be their for them when needed somehow this doesn't work.
anybody who studies veterinary medicine to become rich would be a fool.
of course it is not right to ask for money first if an animal is literally bleeding to death in front of you but this is not what I was talking about. it is about cases where the vet has made a first assesment and time to work out an estimate and discuss this with the client ,depending on estimated costs most vets will ask a not known client for a deposit this is usally the point when it gets though.
a broken leg doesn't need surgery on the spot and gives the owner time to find some money but a twisted stomach,a bleeding abdominal tumor and many others will need a quick decision from the client and what is a vet supposed to do then if they are offered £50 deposit and the promise to pay £20/month for a procedure which might cost up to £3000?.
people might not believe it but this happens all the time and vets are presented with many such cases ooh and during normal consult time.
most vets have a lot of compassion or the would not be in this profession,they are certainly not in it for the money as there many other different jobs they could have chosen from to become rich. no doubt there are also some black sheeps like in every profession but the majority of vets work damn hard are decent and try to do their best.
I guess that's all I have to say ,i wish that I would have a solution to enable affordable veterinary care for all animals but I don't and I really just hope that pet owners become more aware about their duties and think long and hard before they get an animal.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I really just hope that pet owners become more aware about their duties and think long and hard before they get an animal.

I think on this particular website they do :-) That doesn't mean to say that in an emergency situation the insurance companies can be contacted instantly or that a large amount of cash can be produced. I never carry cash with me when out walking my dogs - nor do I carry a bank card. I wouldn't leave cash or card in my car either so just have to hope that my dogs are never injured on an evening walk after my vet has closed for the day.

This site tends to be peopled by owners who take their responsibilities seriously and not by people who bought their dog on a whim or want to do everything in the cheapest way possible. Yet there are many people who have posted who would not be able to have instant up front access to a large deposit in order to secure emergency treatment for their pet. Maybe I could ask my vet for a  letter stating I always pay my bills in full and have never asked for credit from them and then I could keep it in the car and hope the OOH surgery would accept that as proof that I can pay my way for my animals.

Another idea is to possibly have an online credit rating system, relating purely to payment of veterinary charges, that OOH vets could refer to in order to check that the person who is requesting emergency treatment for their animal has a good record for paying their bills and is thus far less of a risk to be a non-payer. If the OOH surgery set this up we could ask our own vet to add a reference for us that could be referred to in the event of an emergency thus helping to alleviate the problem of people not paying their bills.

I am I think one of the lucky ones who's surgery does its own OOH service. I have never been asked to pay up front, however I always pay promptly. I have never left a bill owing for more than a day. I have rushed dogs in in emergency situations such as when Treacle pushed her head into a wasps nest during a walk and I had nothing but poo bags and treats on me ! They treated her without question and I popped in later in the day to pay up.
I have had C-sect's done in the middle of the night and never been asked to pay before or after the surgery, I have always popped in the next day (or OH has) to settle the bill.
People constantly moan on this site about the costs of the vet bills, they need to look at the situation with their vets and make a decision as to if they get gold standard treatment, OOH's care needs to be included in that assessment. I am more than happy to pay a little more for in hours service safe in the knowledge that if I needed my vet OOH's they would be there for me and my dogs without question. That to me is Gold Standard and worth every penny that goes into my vets "money grabbing" pockets.... Personally I do not think vets are so mercenary...but the managers of these OOH services are often not vets but accountants ! The vets just work for the company but the owners pay the wages and call the shots.
Aileen

You are one of the lucky ones :-) Sadly there are no vets at all in my area who now operate their own OOH service. The vet I travel to isn't the nearest and certainly isn't the cheapest but it is one that I trust and that makes a huge difference for me :-)

I think you hit the nail on the head Merlot. A lot of practises are now part of larger groups, and they outsource all their OOH services. The vets themselves do not make the rules and have to abide by polices of the accountants and business managers.
The problem I think is for those on lower incomes and the older age group who may not want a credit card, or are afraid of carrying money or cards with them.
I know some vets do operate, a monthly fee paying account, but it covers annual vaccinations, flea and worm treatments. Something that I do not want as I don't do annual boosters, or put chemicals in or on my dogs.
Think Vet4Pets are offering a £99 deal on neutering, Vaccs. and worm and flea treatments, but it has to be done before the dog is six months old. Yet another example of vets getting in the money, but pushing services that are not in the best interest of the dog.
I am sure that young vets do have to work hard and long hours for initially low salaries, and may end up paying back high university loans, but that is surely the same for a lot of professionals, Accountants, Solicitors, Doctors etc. 
Other professionals manage to run services without asking their clients to stand and deliver as they walk over the threshold !!

>Other professionals manage to run services without asking their clients to stand and deliver as they walk over the threshold !!

Hit the nail on the head Dorcas

An retired vet friend of mine said that it used to be a profession but now it's a trade.

(Just tagging on to the end here, not replying to anyone in particular.)

One of the many reasons for why Vets Now has such a poor reputation (anyone ever heard what happened about the TV programme that was meant to be all about them and all complaints about them??) is that most people will have to travel a lot further than to their usual vet. An extra half an hour or so can make a huge difference for certain emergencies, in particular if you are a breeder. It's all well and good to travel to a vet you like, but there are times when it isn't practically possible, if it is a real emergency where every minute counts. My normal vet I can reach in 10 minutes, for Vets Now I have a choice of two, and there you are talking about at least 40 minutes whichever I'd pick. Big difference.

> a 10 years plus experienced vet might earn up to £45000/anum in the right location

Compared to similarly qualified graduates (remember vet students would probably all have the top A level grades etc) £45000 a year at 10 years experience is quite a low salary !

>Compared to similarly qualified graduates (remember vet students would probably all have the top A level grades etc) £45000 a year at 10 years experience is quite a low salary !

Someone who I agree with!  My own vet drives a car much older than the one I have.  He goes on camping holidays to Wales or Cornwall with his wife and kids.  I have raced in at 8am with an emergency that wasn't pre-booked.  I've seen him at tea time after work for routine jabs etc.  (When he hadn't stopped for lunch because he accepted 2 RTA's with dogs he didn't know.)  Not registered with him.  I've phoned in after they closed on the SAME day, and he's operated on a dog for me at 10.30pm.

Does my own GP work those hours?  No.  And he earns MORE THAN DOUBLE what my vet earns.  My care is not as good as those of my beloved dogs.

Returning to the original subject . From looking at the actually requirements laid down by the RCVS it would appear the ruling body has given OOH providers the complete freedom of choice in their methods of charging and the way they interpret "unable to pay" by the wording of the last sentence under.......

3. 24-hour emergency first aid and pain relief"
  "The costs of providing the service"
3.57 "Veterinary surgeons are not obliged to carry out ongoing treatments for which the owner is unable to pay."

http://www.rcvs.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/code-of-professional-conduct-for-veterinary-surgeons/supporting-guidance/24-hour-emergency-first-aid-and-pain-relief/

For me this is the key point

3.56  Likely costs and arrangements for payment should be discussed at an early stage, but immediate first aid and pain relief should not be delayed while financial arrangements are agreed.

And one that seems to have been missing in some of the stated cases.

'Ongoing treatment' I would expect would be anything that is NOT the life saving or immediately necessary bit of the emergency. It's the same as going abroad with the EHIC , or that's my interpretation of it anyway. And yes I can see why if people don't have the funds the vets can refuse to treat for this ongoing part.

I have just seen this advertised on MTV and this is the offer I wonder what the catch is ?

http://m.vets4pets.com/special-offers/vac4life/

Having paid their money pet owners are not likely to miss a free vaccination. That way Vets4Pets know they will get their clients into the Surgery at least once a year for the health check. They get to keep contact and loyalty with that client and advise on extra work that might need doing at that health check. From having had one dog vaccinated at a Vets4Pets Surgery a year later they were very persistent to follow it up with a booster. First I got a card, then a letter and when they were ignored I had a telephone call from the Surgery wanting me to make an appointment.

What extra work ?

"What extra work ?"
Spaying, castration, dental work as the pet gets older. If a client loyalty can be established there are worming and flea treatments etc, etc.

The Vets4Pets mostly stand alone clinics have recently been taken over by the Pet at Home Company. Companion Care Vets are inside Pets at Home so these two Veterinary chains are now under the same umbrella and have a massive marketing opportunity and buying power to lower their purchase prices for vaccinations etc.

I have just seen this advertised on MTV and this is the offer I wonder what the catch is ?

My daughter use them for her two dogs and she considered this offer, and we did find out what the catch was. They offer you all sorts of extra tests and checks -for instance, why would anyone even consider having blood samples and urine samples taken twice a year from a 1 and 2 year old perfectly healthy dog? (Papillons, so longlived breed without any major health problems known.) A lot of people would probably believe it IS necessary -my daughter asked my opinion and I said no, I see no need at all, so she declined. The second catch we found was when she moved house and suddenly had to either lose the money/pay for future vaccinations, or keep the same vet despite being out of the area. The third catch was when one of her dogs got ill and we realised just how much more they charge for basic treatment and medication, compared to my own vet. Vaccinations may be cheaper, but in the long run my experience is that Vets 4 Pets cost a LOT more than my vet.

I used the vets inside Pets at Home (Companion care ) they have now been re branded Vets 4 Pets. During the time I used them, which is quite a while ago now,  I never saw the same vet twice, I think they cover several stores.
On a couple of occasions I got very new vets, possibly straight out of vet college, or could have been on a placement of some type. They had to constantly keep going and check things with the senior vet so it did not inspire confidence and I felt I would have preferred to see a more experienced vet, after all I was being charged full price.
I know new vets have to learn, but I think they should be under supervision until they have gained enough general experience to be let lose on the general public. 
When you have older animals, or ones with ongoing health issues it is nice to have some continuity. Also they did try to sell me a package they were promoting at the time which included neutering, which I politely declined.

>They had to constantly keep going and check things with the senior vet so it did not inspire confidence and I felt I would have preferred to see a more experienced vet, after all I was being charged full price.

Better they check when they're uncertain than get it wrong; this way you're getting the expertise of two vets for the price of one. ;-)

>I know new vets have to learn, but I think they should be under supervision until they have gained enough general experience to be let lose on the general public.

Legally just by having the senior vet in the same building means they are under supervision. If you want them in the same room then you'd have to pay extra for the second vet's time.

Tacking on the end

VetsNow is our OOH in our area.  I have used them for things as complicated as an emergency C section, and as simple as emergency stitches to a puncture that refused to stop bleeding after several hours, as well as a few other times.  I think they are a tally franchised (if I remember from what my vets told me), and we have never been asked for £500 up front in 5 years of using them.  We agree before coming in to the cost of £140 consultation (which rises after 11pm) plus treatment costs, and we pay upon completion of the appt.

Would I prefer to deal with my vets 24/7, of course, but I understand the benefits of having a fresh, awake person dealing with my dog at a critical time. 

The other benefit to them no longer doing their own ooh was that they then started to offer longer surgery hours, extra hours on Wednesday, plus a whole day Saturday.  So in doing so increased the amount of hours they are available to us in general.

Also in reference to the question about what happens to dogs kept overnight at vets who don't cover their own ooh.  Well, even those who do, most do it from home, not on their premises so wouldn't be there for the dogs.  I can't answer what happens in other practices, but when one of hours was required to stay in for observation they immediately sent one of the vet nurses home to sleep, she then came back at closing and stayed on site, partly sleeping, but doing a visual check every xx amount of time (might have been half hour or 45 minutes).  We were called at least once with an update through the night, and when we went back in the next morning she was heading home to her bed.  I know some practices leave overnight dogs unsupervised and that's a huge concern for me.  I'd rather bring them home and sleep next to them crated with a drip where I can observe them.  The whole point of 'observation' is observation!

At the end of the day expecting any one person (GP or vet)  to be able to work 24/7 on a regular basis is unreasonable, and that's when life threatening mistakes can happen.  So while ooh may not be what people want, it's the most practical if we want our vets alert and fresh when treating and operating in normal hours. 

Other jobs/industries pay a heck of a lot more than vets, and work less hours.  Why are we expecting more?

On the other hand, proof of insurance should be more than enough, with maybe a token upfront payment.  I'm lucky in that I have a card we can put everything on if needed, but not all can. 

I'm sure there's more I meant to say on both sides of the discussion, but having a brain freeze

Better they check when they're uncertain than get it wrong; this way you're getting the expertise of two vets for the price of one. ;-)


No I am paying a consultation fee for a fully trained vet ! But not getting one.

Legally just by having the senior vet in the same building means they are under supervision. If you want them in the same room then you'd have to pay extra for the second vet's time.


Why should I pay for their staff training, I was not getting the expertise of even one vet, as they had not examined my dog !!

One reason why I know longer go to that vet, and I know of several other people who went elsewhere for the same reason.

>No I am paying a consultation fee for a fully trained vet ! But not getting one.

Yes, the vet is fully trained, but not fully experienced - no vet ever is. Every vet has to do an average of 35 hours CPD every year in an attempt to keep up with new developments and research. Senior vets will often ask newly-qualified vets what 'the latest thining' is for certain conditions, so the consultations work both ways.