Read that title whichever way you like.

My morning walk has been invaded by a man walking with his young child and a big black doodle. Now whilst I accept that I walk on public land and that other dog walkers have as much right to walk their dogs as I have I am getting rather P*55ed off with this chap. His preferred method of excercising his dog is to let it run after any other dogs using the field.

The first morning I entered the field with my dogs 2 of which are fine with other dogs. One loves to chase (not playfully) and will nip other dogs as they run away however she has a very good recall and I can call her off dogs if she starts to chase these days. the last dog is my current foster who is reactive especially to fast moving dogs.

First morning they appeared. I had just arrived at the field and let 3 of the dogs off when the Doodle appeared on the horizon at least 500 yds away galloping straight for us. no sign of any owners. Chaser saw dog coming and started to chase him although I quickly stopped her. He then just hung around us. Eventually owners appeared in the distance making no attempt to call the dog. I left the field with my dogs and watched as owners finally got to dog and led him off by the collar. they disappeared over a hill so I thought it would be OK to carry on with our walk.  Wrong the Doodle soon came galloping over the hill off the lead again. So I yelled to the owners who were still out of sight to get their dog on a lead. The reply I got involved words I wouldn't have used in front of my children but the gist was of course he was friendly and only wants to play. GRRRR.

Yesterday morning. I arrived at the field hoping Friday was a one off and they would not be there, only to find them standing there . No dog in sight, scanning the bushes presumably looking for the dog. I waited for a couple of minutes to see if they would recapture the dog so I could carry on with my walk but there was no sign of the dog so I decided to cut my losses and do a road walk home. Not ideal as foster is reactive to cars as well but decided it would be better than risking the doodle on the field. As I headed for the housing estate what should I see coming towards me but the dreaded doodle. Coming in from completely the opposite direction to where his owners were looking. He had obviously been running round the housing estate.  I shouted to let the owners know where their dog was and waited some more to see if they would recapture him but no. The dog just stood around sniffing bushed and cocking his leg  while they called him. They had to walk right up to him but they couldn't catch him to put his lead back on. Thankfully they decided to walk off and he followed them at a distance so I was able to carry on with my walk. Only saw the owners once more on the walk standing around looking lost with the dog nowhere in sight.

This morning being sunday I hoped they would have a lie in. But no. I arrived at the field to find them standing in the same spot with another dog owner and the two dogs were playing. I took the opportunity to walk past them at as big a distance as I could hoping to get to a different part of the field without being spotted. Unfortunately doodle looked up and saw us so of course galloped over again. Chaser and foster were on leads and were both going mad at the doodle but owner made no attempt to call him back. Although it probably wouldnt have made any difference if they had tried..

As this is now the 3rd day I have to accept that these people are a fixture on the walk but I am not sure what to do about the. I have to walk my dogs at this time if they are to get a walk before work and there is nowhere else nearby. I am tempted to put a muzzle on Chaser and just let her chase him to see if he then gets the message and leaves us alone but I have spent a lot of time working on her not chasing so dont want to undo that. Why do other people have so little consideration?

This is the very reason I have my big walk at 6am, it never seems to matter what precautions I took with my reactive dog, you could bet an ownerless dog would appear from nowhere, usually heralded by the jingling of their collar, and of course, no owner in sight.
I have abandoned one walk because of one owner who allows their young Lab to run riot in the forestry, she is a lovely friendly girl, but my dog doesn't appreciate being followed by her, and she doesn't take the hint of my dog breakdancing on the end of her leash in an attempt to get at her.
I'm always amazed at the amount of owners who allow their dogs to run so far out of sight, especially in the forest which is huge and full of deer, they don't seem to worry in the slightest that their dog could be off after a deer and very quickly be lost.

This was at 6:30am. Barely light. I dont like walking my foster in the dark because I cant see what is around.

Feel for you smithy, many people are just ignorant to others needs. Try what I have recently done......

Recently on our walks, we've come across a new dog walker with an adolescent DDB, who also is loving chasing other dogs for his exercise, bless the dog... not his fault he is only playing, but he is a big boy and really heavy, the owner had no concept or care for other people's dogs and I'd heard him previously saying "he's only playing", well that is until I called him over after chasing our dogs again (who were not happy and running for their lives.)

I told him that unfortunately his dog was too big to play with mine, until much older, I wouldn't even want him bouncing on my brothers GSD's and that if he jumped on their backs he would be faced with a HUGE vet bill to put things right, I would have pretended not to have insurance **wink** funny how that made him think, money always does, doesn't it ;-) and he now puts his dog on lead when meeting smaller ones, job done! :-)

If the doodle is bigger you could use the same tactic, if smaller you could perhaps say the doodle could be hurt........ worth a try, truth is many people only care about their own dogs needs. :-(

If this dog is wandering off round the estate then I'd be inclined to get the DW involved, as he will be a hazard to road users and anyone walking their dog on lead - what if he runs up to an elderly person's dog and they end up knocked/pulled over if their dog tries to get away?

I dont know why you seem to pin it all on doodle owners, sounds like your average pet dog owner to me, at least it wasnt a fighting dog.
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The first post refers to the specific,  stupid  owners of a doodle...  ???

Yes,  many owners are like this.  But in this case they are the owners  of a doodle.

OP

My first reaction is Dog Warden.     Also pointing  out that if they carry on they way they are,  their dog  will sooner  or  later be attacked and with vets bills so huge...

My old girl  would have ended up hanging from this  dog's nose.  Not because she was aggressive,  she wasn't.   Not because she  hated other dogs, she loved them.  But  if the dog was big and bouncy,   and out of control,   and the owner wouldn't take control, then eventually,  she would.   And that is how a Bedlington puts a very much larger dog in it's place.   Strangely,  the  owners of these dogs suddenly didn't like their dogs being out of  control and soon remembered where they  put  the lead..

After asking them to control their dog,  I would  say"oh  well, if you don't  mind her  hanging off  his nose.."   ;-)

After asking them to control their dog,  I would  say"oh  well, if you don't  mind her  hanging off  his nose.."   ;-)

These days I hardly ever meet other dog owners  but when I did, my approach was similar. Other owner claims "Don't worry , he's friendly!" so I simply reply "Well mine are NOT!" Usually does the trick.

I agree with Goldmali when meeting idiots like that my answer is will mine aren't so you better get you dog on a leader before you dog has my pack ,who are put back on leader at first sight of another dog, having it, even though they won't bark heads off yes attack no, but they do not know that

Best form of arms is a camera....they hate their mugshot on P1 google......hmmmm cross my palm with gold & dribble a few gals of gas & Ill make you a happy dog owner

http://bit.ly/1m41Eiz
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> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">, sounds like your average pet dog owner to me,

Quite agree.  Certainly around here, your average pet dog owner just lets their mutt do anything, no training, no responsibility, no common sense, no consideration for others  ... we should have laws enforced here, such as the ones used on the road, like 'driving (or in this case walking your dog) without due care and consideration' etc.

I agree about getting the DW involved. If the owner is a fair distance away how will he know if his dog is in an incident, another dog might retaliate & if the dog is seen wandering report to the DW. Daft dog and even dafter owner by the sounds of it.

Certainly around here, your average pet dog owner just lets their mutt do anything, no training, no responsibility, no common sense, no consideration for others

"Pictures speak louder than words"...as the age old saying goes...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUy0Kk0msS4&list=UU2MktiTK0FWV_zmtKYndqpQ
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Well that was an anticlimax. I decided that I would use the situation to my advantage and test my Chasers recall  from dogs. I have been working very hard with her to stop her chasing and nipping other dogs. So I left Foster at home and took Chaser and the other two out. I was not going to set her on him but neither was I going to stop her chasing him immediately and I would see how well I could call her back once she was further into the chase than I normally let her get.  A difficult thing to test as it is not easy to find someone who will let their dog be chased and possibly get its bum nipped. But as this chap seemed to be volunteering his dog for the purpose I thought it would be rude to refuse!

I left Foster at home as he loses his mind as soon as he sees a fast moving dog, and seeing his best friend being allowed to chase would undoubtedly be too much for him. Anyway I went out at the same time as on the previous mornings, got to the field and it  was empty. :( no mad doodle appeared from out of the bushes. No dad and daughter standing around  mournfully scanning the horizon. Nothing.

I had a lovely peaceful walk. I do have to say that it was nice to walk without foster too. I hadn,t realised how hard he is to walk.  Chaser behaved impeccably even when we saw other dogs so we had a lovely walk. I am now hoping that perhaps this chap was just on holiday and has now gone back from whence he came.

Thank you everyone for all your comments. If he should reappear I will be contacting the dog warden. I will also take advantage of the training opportunity provided rather than cursing the disruption to my normal walk.

Dill, this whole territory is a little hobby horse of mine. I despair of the owner who  cannot grasp that some dogs not only need their own space but have a v strong sense of canine etiquette and do not like to be jumped on by strange and over-familiar upstarts.

Unfortunately doodles seem generally to be OTT (I have dealt with quite a few now) but the 'ideal'/hypoallergenic label (nonsense) seems to attract a spectacularly clueless and wishy washy type of owner and that is part of the problem.

I agree with Nikita, get the DW involved. A new type of punitive measure should be instituted- 6 months compulsory owner training with a reputable trainer!

and wishy washy type of owner

Ive also noticed the larger, wiry haired type, 'labdoodle' dogs did seem to be owned by 'wishy washy' types but Ive been seeing quite a few smaller different doodle mixes this summer.........still weather will be getting cooler soon enough so I suppose I'll be back to seeing the occasional dog owner in the distance again.

I think dog walking is a form of summer madness which afflicts some dog owners in warmer weather, as soon as the grey skies & winds start again they become afflicted with seratonin deficiency and get confined to 24hr TV therapy till the blue skies of the next spring.
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> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">still weather will be getting cooler soon enough so I suppose I'll be back to seeing the occasional dog owner in the distance again. <br />

LOL!  Don't get me started!!  Up here today the weather is a 'pea souper' and when I was out both this morning and afternoon, there was hardly anyone out exercising their dogs.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"> get confined to 24hr TV therapy till the blue skies of the next spring.<br />.

Therein lies the problem.  I'm sure at least if the owners are too lazy to leave the house they could at least train their dogs from the comfort of their armchair instead of being glued to TV and 'social media', probably wasting money on buying clothes for their dogs!!!

probably wasting money on buying clothes for their dogs!!!

Bit of sore subject on here, when the Ukraine was showing the first signs of problems I started a post about 'down' jackets (Ukraine produces high quality goose down from its meat market & I thought that might be affected by their troubles) & was going to go on to thermal baselayers (a warm coat is not much good without good thermal baslayers) & waterproofing any down jackets, this was before winter set right in......unbelievably admin locked it & think deleted it.......for heavens sakes does admin think non of us need warm & dry winter clothes when a N wind chill can it down to -15c long before Xmas...not only that people can spend a lot of money on a down only to find its nothing more a commercially promoted & hyped up product thats simply nowhere near up to the job.
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Hmmm ... yeah ... but I meant wasting money on clothes to 'dress up' their dogs. 

> A new type of punitive measure should be instituted- 6 months compulsory owner training with a reputable trainer!

Oh how I wish!

Unfortunately doodles seem generally to be OTT (I have dealt with quite a few now) but the 'ideal'/hypoallergenic label (nonsense) seems to attract a spectacularly clueless and wishy washy type of owner and that is part of the problem.

Love that! Never thought of it that way! Makes sense though: "I have a dog that won't moult... Oh no wait it does moult like a lab with a thick dense curly coat. Should have done my research".

To me it just seems the norm you would expect in a public place. In the video I don't see any particular aggressive behaviour just a busy park where their are lots of dogs.
For the most part dogs off lead don't generally have a problem if they have been mixed and socialised. The problems seem to arise with dogs that are kept on lead. The natural instinct for a dog is flight or fight if you take away the flight option as the dog is on lead. then nervous or reactive dogs will only be left with the fight option, which tends to go worse if the dog is walked in areas where they are going to be approached by off lead dogs.
The thing is that their many dog owners all trying to exercise their dog in the same area, for the vast majority of dogs and owners it is not a problem and dogs will run and play together and the owners will chat, and probably see the same dogs at roughly the same time of day.
Having worked with reactive, nervous and aggressive dogs the above situation is the worst possible scenario to put them in, as they become flooded. if you really expect Jo public to know the rules of dog etiquette then you are living in cloud cuckoo land it isn't going to happen.
If you have a dog that you know is not good with other dogs off lead, then taking and putting in just this situation is not going to do it any favours, whilst it is very laudable to take on a rescue dog, if you do not have the time, knowledge, skills, and facilities to rehabilitate the dog then you are going to be continually, running the gauntlet from other owners and dogs.
We have to take responsibility for the dogs we own, to protect their physical and mental wellbeing. Yes the doodle is in danger of being run over and needs training for it's own safety, but if there is not a control order on the land to say dogs must be on lead, the dog owners are quite within their rights to let the dog off lead for exercise.
There are far too many problem dogs given back into the community as shelters want to save everything, so it is a continual problem with dogs on leads being approached. There will always be dogs that don't have a good recall, puppies that are not fully trained that run up to every other dog to say hello. That is the risk you take if you take your dog into those areas, you may be lucky most of the time and not meet another dog and owner, but if you do then it is your choice.
Looking at it from another point of view could the problem be that you are trying to manage a number of dogs with issues all at once, whilst I appreciate you need to exercise them, would it not be better to work with the problems they have individually. Sometimes one dog will pick vibes and excitement  from it's housemate, and when a number of dogs are walked together then pack dynamics will also come into play. All making it more difficult to handle situations as they arise.
In an ideal world all owners would go on a training course, all dogs would have perfect recall, puppies would never bog off and go and investigate other dogs. But we all know, that is not going to happen, so the only alternative is to avoid certain areas where dogs are allowed off lead.

Dorcas, I wholeheartedly support your post. Wish I knew how to do like/thumbs up on this forum. You would get multiples from me.

We live in an increasingly crowded environment and off lead dog walking areas are at a premium. It is absolutely unfair  to expect all dogs to behave in a way that suits our own special requirements.I also feel that tolerance of behaviours in other dogs should be a guiding principle. IMO there is nothing worse than a pleasurable walk in nature with my dogs being ruined by a dog owner with dog on lead screaming abuse should another dog approach. If your dog cannot cope with interaction with other dogs, then do it a favour and stick to dog control areas -there are increasing numbers of these.
Furthermore, no one appreciates being told what to do by other members of the public and a sure way of antagonising others is to shout orders at them. If WW 3 has not already broken out by stealth,then dog walking areas will be right up there as the latest area of conflict -I exaggerate of course.
Tolerance is what we need. I was walking in  local woods with my guys yesterday when we were 'bombed' by an exhuberant SBT. She charged around us and yes, I was a bit worried because one of my girls does not suffer fools gladly . Her owners kept calling her to no avail. But I didn't yell -'get your dog on the b...dy  lead'. The owners were doing their best  to get her back and there was no malicious intent. She just wanted to play. I joked a bit with the owners and we parted amicably. Out on walks , I always 'pass the time of day' with other dogwalkers ( drives my husband mad if he is with me) or at least acknowledge them. I reckon it teaches my dogs that people and other dogs are good. I'm not perfect. Who is ? but let's get this in perspective. Tolerance please.

Dorcas, we've had this discussion before I think. I partly agree with what you say but we are never going to achieve this proposed utopian state where all dogs are socialised to the point that they can happily mix with all dogs off-lead. All owners in my view need to be aware all the time and no owner should allow their dog to rush a strange dog off-lead. I think this is part and parcel of responsible, modern dog ownership. And, of course, you will always get totally irresponsible owners who have deliberately made their dog vicious.

I do agree that taking very nervous/ reactive dogs into a space where the above can occur is probably unwise without intensive rehabilitation beforehand.

For those types of breed developed to have minimal social boundaries you are going to find off-lead socialisation easier but there are other breeds and individual dogs that will never be as gregarious and will always need space and may always be intolerant of a strange dog rushing them because they have been developed to be wary. I think we now have an extraordinary mix of different breeds and types, especially in urban settings; socialisation of a young pup is a major task and certainly cannot be achieved by simply letting the pup off-lead to meet as many dogs as possible- though I feel sure that is not what you mean.

On another note I wonder how many breeders here live in isolated/country areas? If so do you use sound CD's from an early age to habituate your pups to city noises.....loads of sirens, shop shutters, fireworks, car engines, traffic noise, tube noises, crowd noises.

I agree with Dorcas and Jan.

My current pack all have very good doggy manners, the 12 year old collie will snap at overbearing dogs, but only after having warned them several times so I reckon that's fair enough. The other three will voluntarily come back to me until they have worked out if new dogs are safe, then they will play with any dog that wants to and avoid any that don't. I don't call them back from other dogs, but neither do they rush up to other dogs. My lot walk in different places every day, meeting new dogs and we never have a problem. I don't mind if young or untrained dogs run over, I'd rather they didn't pester my dogs but I understand that everyone has a right to walk their dogs off lead and not all dogs have perfect recalls.

In my opinion muzzles are vastly underused and underestimated. If all aggressive dogs or dogs 'with issues' are muzzled then walking would be much more relaxed and safer.

My last dog, a large borzoi male, was dog aggressive. He was always muzzled and only allowed off lead in safe areas. Sure when I had him I was often upset by the untrained dogs running over, leaving me covered in bruises as my boy leapt around trying to eat them, but that was my problem, not the fault of the friendly dogs owner.

But the 'friendly dog' with low thresholds for novelty may to to the more naturally aloof dog seem overbearing, rude, OTT. In much the same way a quiet, reserved person may get upset if they are accosted daily in the street by a garrulous neighbour who insists on giving them a big hug and kiss every time they meet and absolutely won't take the hint that the shy person is not interested.

Chaumsong, I would also add that in regard to your Borzoi with each interaction which dog would you say was not reading the signals? If these 'friendly' dogs are so well socialised how come they are unable to read the other dog's uninviting body language correctly? Instead of always being held up as an example of good socialisation one might argue that the 'friendly' in your face dog is socially incompetent, driven primarily by an internally rewarding dopamine rush. Or, most likely, the bulk of dogs learn to understand some social signals across many breeds but miss more subtle signals. If I had a penny fir the number if pug owners that say that dog was attacked for no reason- my guess, many dogs find a pug quite hard to read.

> I agree with Nikita, get the DW involved. A new type of punitive measure should be instituted- 6 months compulsory owner training with a reputable trainer!

Now wouldn't that be fantastic!

> Her owners kept calling her to no avail. But I didn't yell -'get your dog on the b...dy  lead'. The owners were doing their best  to get her back and there was no malicious intent. She just wanted to play.

Thats a different situation to the one the OP described, though.  I've got no problem with that - yes, it will upset a couple of my dogs and undo some work but it happens and if the owners are trying hard to get their dog back, and apologise, then fine.

But people just letting their dog run riot when it's visibly upsetting other dogs, that is a whole different ball game and speaks of a lack of care and respect for other people and their animals, and that REALLY aggravates me.  More so since I've been trying to get River's slipped disc comfortable - it's incredibly difficult to do when random dogs are allowed to charge over and upset her, and the owners just let it happen with no attempt whatsoever to stop the dog.  Back in Feb I actually had to lift her up (this is a then 24kg dog) because someone's untrained mastiff X was just bullying all of mine and was about to start on her - she was getting very tense and was about to flip so I protected her the only way I could I that situation.  The owner's friend just wandered over and took the dog by the collar saying 'oh it's ok, she's soft as butter'.  So I said 'Good for her.  My dog has a slipped disc.'  The look on her face was a picture and she shot off with the dog at light speed - but it's made no difference with the actual owner, she's still done nothing with the ruddy thing.  There is a difference between accidents and laziness.

And - I am not talking about walking in dog-busy areas.  The above all happened in a field local to me, where the dog walking culture is to keep them away from each other because a number of the dogs that are walked there are reactive (including, I might add, the mastiff X's owner's other dog so it's not like she doesn't know what it's like to own one).  It's very quiet, open and mostly empty.  But even there this happens.  So just saying 'don't take them somewhere busy' doesn't fly, I'm afraid.

If these 'friendly' dogs are so well socialised how come they are unable to read the other dog's uninviting body language correctly?

I've found that imensly more common in dogs that it ever used to be, the one time normal body language reading ability seemed to change over this past  decade or so to they dont seem to read the language of their own species anymore.

That said - look again at the vid I first put up & watch the second spaniel which comes on the scene, he walks past with seemingly quite an awarness that she is aloof & not inviting interactions, maybe smelt some adrenalin or something as well.
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Dorcas,

It's all very well to have lots of dogs socialising off lead and yes that's the ideal, but

WHEN YOU'VE GOT DOGS WEIGHING SEVERAL STONES JUMPING ON TOP OF DOGS WEIGHING ONLY POUNDS THEN THERE IS A PROBLEM.  

And when those dogs are completely undisciplined as well, there's a problem. 

I've also had dogs weighing three times the weight of my dogs race up to them and literally knock them off their feet for several yards - THAT'S A PROBLEM!

My dogs aren't kept on leads in social situations where there are several dogs.  They have no problem playing with well mannered dogs, or ill mannered dogs of a similar size, since they are able to give these dogs signals that calm them and if not, put them in their place.

The problem arises with dogs which are very much larger and heavier throwing their size and weight around because they can.   And these days, there are a lot more BIG and HEAVY dogs with stupid owners who seem incapable of training and properly socialising their dogs, or understanding the damage they can cause.   Why should they, it isn't their dogs being taken to the vet for treatment on injuries sustained whilst 'playing'

In some cases it's the equivalent of a large rugby player jumping on top of a young toddler - even an idiot would agree that would be inappropriate, and yet, you seem to think that dogs who don't welcome this kind of treatment are somehow under socialised and their owners unreasonable?

HP, I happen to think that the problem is down to a combination of things -general ignorance of animal behaviour and dogs in particular, an explosion in diversity of dog types and breeds in small areas, byb's and poor/ inadequate socialisation at litter stage. Case in point if you breed in the country you may have to do more for the pup who is to be placed with city owners, not only re noises etc but also for the very much greater range of dogs they might meet and remember that fear stage will be coming soon. IMHO the super friendly and rambunctious pup does not equal 'well socialised'.

I know probably not in your list of fave persons, but was interested to hear John Bradshaw's take on how stressed modern cats are. Their innate biology and needs cannot keep up with pace of environmental change and impositions of modern man, not least proprietary foods that suggest feeding cereal to an obligate carnivore is normal, but also too many cats in town for an animal that is intensely territorial.

>Chaumsong,  If these 'friendly' dogs are so well socialised how come they are unable to read the other dog's uninviting body language correctly? Instead of always being held up as an example of good socialisation one might argue that the 'friendly' in your face dog is socially incompetent,

I agree, I didn't say these dogs were perfect, just that they have a right to be off lead in off lead areas. Over friendly out of control dogs are a pain in the neck, but my dogs are so well socialised that it's not a problem for them, they come back to me when they see strange dogs, I never call them, they hang around me until they've assessed the strange dog and will play if it's friendly and not too OTT, most dogs they simply share a sniff and walk on by, aggressive dogs they give a wide berth too.

The point being that dogs, especially puppies, need to be allowed to meet strange dogs off lead and without human interference to learn dog manners and become calm and well socialised around dogs. If aggressive dogs are muzzled and kept away from popular dog walking areas this would be the ideal solution to me.

If we manage dogs too much they lose the ability to read other dogs signals, if we always put young dogs on lead when we see other dogs they will become wary and possibly aggressive themselves. Better to have a baby puppy told off by an older wiser dog, in my experience no harm has ever came from this, than to have a larger boisterous teenager allowed off lead for the first time jumping all over other dogs because it has never been allowed to learn manners.

I have to say that my least favourite dogs to meet, after aggressive dogs, is young bouncy (generally gundogs) that leap all over and slobber all over mine. I have sensitive sighthounds that cringe at this over the top greeting, but still I don't expect their owners to have complete control and I won't shout to them to 'get their dog on lead' I assume they are trying and training them and the dogs are at that teenage stage. If my dogs couldn't cope with this I would walk elsewhere.

chaumsong,

Yes, in theory we would all hope for a pup to meet the wise, older dog that gives a proportionate response that the pup understands and learns from. However, the older dog's response may be far in excess of what the pup is used to and instead that pup learns very early on that some dogs are positively scary. Some types of dog are hardwired to use aggression rather than avoidance as the first line of defence. We all know that staffs and some terriers can play in a way that some dogs find utterly terrifying (a flurry), thus introductions to other types of dogs do, in my view, need to be carefully managed by all, and if the pups are just off- lead willy nilly how can that be done?

I am not suggesting this is what you mean but I think the notion that pups need to all be off-lead and to run around together and with other adult dogs to learn about dog communication is easily picked up by JP and misapplied. In reality introductions need careful supervision with short exposures and plenty of emphasis on recalls to owner and owner interaction. As a pup owner you are well advised to have some knowledge of the dog/pup and owner, your pup is meeting before letting things go ahead. Again, we simply did not have the range of breeds and mixtures, even 20 years ago and I think this has made a huge difference. Dill's point about large/bull breeds, especially those with high prey drive is well made.

it's the equivalent of a large rugby player jumping on top of a young toddler

Personally I never took my  toddlers and let them play in the middle of a rugby field, nor would I take a young puppy to an area that it was likely to be roughed up.
Part of owning a dog is finding suitable places to walk at various life stages, I have owned toy dogs, as well as larger dogs and I agree you have to be a lot more cautious where you take them and which dogs that you allow them to mix with. But I saw that as my responsibility not the owners of larger dogs.

The reason we see so many dogs today that have never learned manners is that so many never get to learn them from other dogs. More and more dogs are kept at the end of flexi leads, or never allowed off. We are often on a walk dive bombed by an exuberant, boxer, staffie or lab, my youngsters think it is wonderful to have some one to chase around with, my older girl is fine unless they get too in her face then she will politely tell them to do one, if they persist she tells them a bit more strongly, we may meet the dog on several occasions, but normally within a few meetings the dog learns some manners. Dogs teach each other far more than we ever can and usually much quicker too.

I am not advocating a free for all but we live in  country with 10 million dogs so it is quite likely that we are going to meet quite a few when out and about.
If a dog is ill, nervous reactive or aggressive then the owner has a much greater responsibility to look after that dog and meet it's needs, muzzle it if it is likely to bite another dog, and keep it away from situations where it is likely to cause stress to the dog, you can not just throw all the blame on the general public.
I agree all dog should be trained, owners should not let dogs go running up to strange dogs, but it happens, so we either deal with it or end up with sky high blood pressure. If the poster had had unreactive dogs herself I am sure the situation with the doodle would have been quite different, the dogs would have played together and she could have had a chat with the owner, and in a nice way explained about training, and if the opportunity arose maybe suggest training classes in the area.
Sadly see more and more rescue dogs with issues in the community, part of this is people feel sorry for the dog and want to help, and shelters are just looking to rehome and give dogs out to people who do not have the knowledge or experience to help the dog. These dogs never get rehabilitated, they still have all the same problems that landed them in the shelter in the first place, all that changes is the dogs location, yes it will have better food housing, and an owner who cares for it, but it and the owner are not happy, as they live in constant fear of meeting another dog.
Dog ownership should be a joy, seeing dogs running and enjoying life having freedom, and as pack animals they have a need to exhibit natural behaviours and enjoy the company of other canines.
I recently lost an old dog, before she died it was hard work as it meant I could not take her on the walks the other dogs in case she was banged knocked or jostled, at weekends when everywhere is busy it meant I might have to drive out a bit further to quieter places, where she could stretch her legs a little. It would have been easier to take her out with the others, but I had a duty of care to her. Just the same if I had a bitch in season or one who is injured, I can't take a protective bubble with me, and expect never to be approached by another dog, so I take the necessary steps as a responsible owner  to take them where they will be safe. Sometimes I may have to wait in my car till other owners have left the field, or leave the area if someone came on with boisterous dogs.
It could be said that I had a right to be in these places and not be interrupted or my dog approached but dogs are dogs, puppies and young dogs need time to learn a recall, some owners never put the time in or have the skills to train it. That is life I am afraid, and we have to get on with it how it is not how we would like it to be.

For those types of breed developed to have minimal social boundaries you are going to find off-lead socialisation easier but there are other breeds and individual dogs that will never be as gregarious and will always need space and may always be intolerant of a strange dog rushing them because they have been developed to be wary.

Very true. How often is it mentioned on here that such and such a breed does not get on very well with its own breed of the same sex, for instance?  And quite apart from that -if you have a small toybreed you certainly don't want a much bigger dog (doesn't need to be anything bigger than a Labrador for instance) rushing towards it, as the smaller dog could be killed simply by being trodden on. Far better to go to training classes and let your dog socialise there, under proper supervision. Certainly at mine we split the dogs into groups according to temperament and size, to make it safe for everyone.

On another note I wonder how many breeders here live in isolated/country areas? If so do you use sound CD's from an early age to habituate your pups to city noises.....loads of sirens, shop shutters, fireworks, car engines, traffic noise, tube noises, crowd noises.

I would think the majority live like this, but I don't see a need for the CDs. My toybreed stays until 12 weeks minimum and therefore those pups I will take out and about before sold, my bigger breed I will start taking my OWN pup into the nearest town centre as soon as possible, and the new owners will do the same with theirs. My pups get used to different noises instead. Not many city dogs are used to combine harvesters, gunshots, cows, sheep, horses etc. It can be quite noisy in the countryside too. :)

I have owned toy dogs, as well as larger dogs and I agree you have to be a lot more cautious where you take them and which dogs that you allow them to mix with. But I saw that as my responsibility not the owners of larger dogs.

So you'd be quite happy to walk a 2 kg dog offlead and have 30 kg dogs rush up towards your dog, perhaps from behind, before you even had a chance to notice? And picking a small dog up as soon as a bigger dog appears only means the bigger dog will be MORE interested. Far better if the bigger dog never ran up to other dogs to start with. When I lived in a suburban area I could NEVER walk my little dogs without also bringing a big dog with me, for protection of the little ones. Otherwise I'd have lost a dog per week, I am sure. It wasn't any doodles, it was all the Staffies and Staffy crosses intent on going for smaller dogs.

I vividly remember my grandfather, from when I was just a few years old. He would always bring a heavy walking stick with him on every walk with his Papillon. He called his stick "the Alsatian killer". He started taking it with him on walks after a GSD had picked up his Papillon in its mouth and shook him. Thankfully that Pap was an oversized one that probably weighed as much as 5 kilos, so he survived. A friend of mine had her Papillon killed about ten years ago whilst on a walk ON LEAD by a Rottweiler who appeared and simply picked the dog up and killed him. The problem is still the same, it's just the breeds that vary.

I havent had a chance to read all the posts but I would just like to point out I walk was a 6:30 in the morning so not at a peak dog walking time. I walk on a fairly under used field where it is rare to meet people and the ones that do respect each  other and their dogs need for space. My chaser and reactive dog were on flexi leads so I could ensure they didnt cause anyone else a problem and the foster is muzzled to make sure he cannot do any harm.

The doodle raced up to my dogs at speed with no owner in sight the first time and on several other occaisions. When the owner could see me struggling to control 2 dogs who were barking and lunging at his dog he took no action either to try to recapture his dog or call it away. and furthermore he saw me on two other days and again let his dog race up to and harrass mine. I am d4mn sure that if I had let both my dogs go he would have been the first one to complain if they frightened or hurt his dog but being a responsible owner I hung onto them for dear life, dragging them away from the area with the doodle running around them.

I know other people have the right to let their dogs roam but I too have the right to walk my dogs. I try to go out at a time and to areas which will minimise the chances of meeting other dogs. I will not however stop walking my dogs on the off chance I might meet some idiot who has no idea.

If I allowed my teenage children to go up to strangers and shout at them and push them around then the police could be called so why is it acceptable for people to let their dogs race up to any dog they choose? 

thankfullly the doodle was not there again today so I am hoping he was just a visitor and will not be back.

>Dog ownership should be a joy, seeing dogs running and enjoying life having freedom, and as pack animals they have a need to >exhibit natural behaviours and enjoy the company of other canines

I totally agree.  

However, having 16lb-18lb dogs,  I have found that it is practically impossible to achieve.   Most of the dogs in our location are either staffies/staffie crosses, or 'american bulldogs'- all the agility and size of a boxer, but twice as heavy -  And never under control.  And then there are the Bullmastiffs and their crosses.  All off lead and out of control.

As for never taking your toddler to a rugby field to be roughed up,  I bet you've never been walking anywhere with your toddler and had a 16 stone 6ft rugby player with social issues rush up to you in the street or in the park and proceed to bounce all over you either.   Yet this is the reality for many of us these days.    

As for education,  the people who own these dogs know it all.    Recently I was told that a 12 week old staff cross pup had been regularly walking about 2 miles with his owner.   When  I tried to gently suggest that this was too much for such a young dog,  I was told he'd been doing it since the pup was 7 weeks and he was fine!   These people don't want to learn anything,  they want to live in their want it,  have it now bubble and not listen to talk of consequences.

Being able to allow our dogs to run about and socialise seems to be a thing of the past,  at least in my locality.    And the mountains are out of bounds because of the livestock grazing.

Have to agree.

I have sociable dogs, but often have youngsters (and some adults) that will bog off until training improves \\(sometimes occasionally after) and also a breed that tends to range.

I have stopped walking them off lead due to the expectations of so many people with nervy or aggressive dogs on lead to have a perfect instant recall.  I agree that dogs that can[t cope in off lead situations with other dogs should only be walked where off lead dogs are not allowed, and be socialised with other dogs in controlled settings until they can cope.

Part of this lack of tolerance sadly is down to too many macho type dogs around in our cities that have attacked other peoples dogs, making them very wary and intolerant, as well as so many nervy/under socialised dogs.

The result is my dogs have not had regular off lead exercise for 6 years (we stick to lead walking, streets and old railway line footpath) and my two youngest, who adore other dogs, can be quite embarrassing on lead as they yell their heads off, and do Meercat impressions when they see a lone dog being walked on our lead walks (hundreds f dogs at a show get no reaction, as of course they get to greet many of them).

The net result of all this uber control is dog are increasingly unable to socialise with other dogs and learn how to relate to them, do vicious cycle of more nervous reactive dogs all trying to find somewhere away from others to be walked.

Dogs can't learn perfect recall unless they are allowed off lead, and they will not instantly have it.

I can see a time as in other countries where dogs are not allowed off lead in public places at all, and always on lead off their won property, and we are helping this happen.

Yes controlled and supervised offlead, multiple, short exposures, and if pup gets told off by older dog owners need to be around and able to help get things back on track. However, what I frequently see is pups simply running around with little supervision, owner not aware.

Only today a young spaniel was roundly told off by a min schnauzer who seemed to react out of the blue but could be seen giving cut off signals which were not heeded by spaniel. Spaniel owner furious and accused schnauzer owner of having an aggressive dog. Both dogs off-lead but it was plain to see that the spaniel was right in the schnauzer's face. The older dog's owner apologised and slunk off looking guilty, the spaniel owner spoke to other people looking all self righteous and continued to let his dog 'socialise' off-lead all around the park.

There have also been a number of incidents of small breed dogs off-lead but close to owners picked up and ragged by large breed dogs also off-lead, with stunned owners all round. So what happened with socialisation there?

Finally, it is simply untrue to describe all dogs as pack animals. Dogs are not wolves. Feral dogs have been seen to form very loose packs but nothing permanent and certainly with no clear hierarchy. Some dogs are more pack orientated and some less so. What they are is social animals but their affiliation may, by nature, nurture or both, be more to their human group or their multi species family group, not necessarily to any other example of their own species.

I have a Toy breed. I frequently walk her to a nearby massive field that contains two football pitches, and lots of open space. It is an 'on lead area' because it is part of very large sport facilities and to be allowed to walk your dogs there as a concession, on lead - max 2 mtrs (no flexi or training leads) is the law. There is a fixed £1000 penalty for ignoring these rules. There are signs to this effect along the entrances. The signs also state that dogs must NOT walk across the football pitches (for obvious reasons)

The last time that I walked my dog there she was eight weeks pregnant, early morning. I stuck to the outer perimeter owing to her condition to avoid meeting up with other dogs although she has no issues at all with other dogs from tinies to giants.

This particular morning, up pitched a lady with a German Shepherd who immediately coming on to the field let her dog of the lead. She walked straight across this football pitch (texting as she went) the dog immediatley did a 'dump' which she left where it was and walked on, and then the GS took off flying across the field towards me. The owner looked up for a moment before going back to her 'texting' and shouted to her dog 'play nicely'!!!!!!!!!!

This could have been absolutely disasterous for my little one (pregnancy apart) had this GS decided to 'play nicely'. My dog was on a lead and the other one loose. Luckily, mine went into a down when I asked and I stood in front and shouted 'no' to the GS who stopped.

In my opinion it is not acceptable that dogs who do not have an immediate recall - off lead area's or not, should be controlled a on lead. They should not be far enough away from their owners to ignore a recall.  It is a simple matter to ask an on coming dog walker if the dogs can meet, play together etc. It's good manner from both the dog and it's owner.

>Dogs can't learn perfect recall unless they are allowed off lead, and they will not instantly have it.

Absolutely right. Just as children don't have perfect social manners without learning from adults, nor will young dogs, unless they're given the opportunity to learn from older dogs.

It seems to me that we shouldn't expect better behaviour from an animal than we do from our children. Do we expect 5 year olds in a playground to politely introduce themselves and shake hands, before they get invited to join in an activity the way an adult would? No, we'd expect them to just go and join in, even with older children. If we think the children in that playground might play too rough then we go to a different playground, not hold their hands at the side and not let them join in! Why should we demand more from our dogs?

>In my opinion muzzles are vastly underused and underestimated. If all aggressive dogs or dogs 'with issues' are muzzled then walking would be much more relaxed and safer.

the only thing a muzzle will do is prevent the dog actually biting. it can still chase and frighten other dogs. It does have the advantage though of helping to deter other dog owners. I find that when they notice the muzzle they magically get control of their dog. My foster is now sporting a bright red muzzle and some people now keep their dogs away from him

So you'd be quite happy to walk a 2 kg dog offlead and have 30 kg dogs rush up towards your dog, perhaps from behind, before you even had a chance to notice?

No I certainly wouldn't Goldmali, and I never said I would. as I said I would take responsibility for them and not walk them in such areas. That means finding quieter safer areas. Looking on maps, talking to other dog walkers you get to know where the nice quite walks are. Going further afield, sometimes doing a reckie to look at particular areas to see if they are suitable and safe.
Letting them off in a situation where you can see for quite a distance, being vigilant, making sure there are a number of routes you can go if you need to avoid other dogs.
Watching your dogs, not texting, being on a mobile phone or listening to music, arranging to meet up with likeminded people who have nice sociable dogs, just common sense really. 
Seems to me some people expect to have certain areas entirely to themselves, and get a bit peeved if someone else happens to be walking in that area. Agree with Jeangenie, some people have unreal expectations of other dogs and owners.
Dogs don't read training manuals, they have their own rules on dog etiquette, and not every large dog wants to maul and tread on small dogs. Where we go there is a Great Dane and a Japanese Chin who regularly walk together the little Chin dances happily underneath and the Dane always seems to know where his little mate is.
Surely as dog lovers we should be trying to promote responsible dog ownership by example, offering a pooh bag if you see a dog take a dump, I very often pick other than my own dogs up if I come across it, to try and keep places where we can still let dogs off lead.

If other dog owners are saying they want all dogs on lead, then we are playing into the hands of the local authorities who want more control orders, if all dogs have to be on lead all of the time, then their will be more dogs with issues not less.
Yes there are problems and some dogs living in communities that should not be, with owners that should not be in charge of a pot plant let alone a living breathing creature, but there is already enough legislation out there, the real issues with Dangerous dogs is that it is not enforced. Dog on dog attacks are largely ignored, and anyone can go and buy a dog that is totally unsuitable for their lifestyle. The real issues that need to be tackled, are BYB, selling of dogs through free papers and dodgy internet sites, and more public information. Only 5% of dogs ever get any formal training and a lot of them will be only a few weeks, puppy training.
If we bash each other, then we could very well find that all dogs will be required to be muzzled, and on lead at all times, which I think for many would takeaway a lot the pleasure out of owning a dog.
It is already in place in some countries, and I know speaking to some owners abroad they envy the fact that we in the UK can still largely take our dogs out into wide open places for free running. 

>So you'd be quite happy to walk a 2 kg dog offlead and have 30 kg dogs rush up towards your dog, perhaps from behind, before you even had a chance to notice?

>No I certainly wouldn't Goldmali, and I never said I would. as I said I would take responsibility for them and not walk them in such areas

Thats all very well but inconsiderate owners invade these places. I have been walking in this place and at this time for years with no trouble. There are other owners around with their dogs off lead and I have my dogs off lead apart from the reactive foster. Not being psychic  I did not expect a large dog to come hurtling from over 500yds away towards me and my dogs. Two of my dogs only weigh 5kg each so would be easily hurt by being jumped on by a labrador sized dog however friendly it was.

>Letting them off in a situation where you can see for quite a distance, being vigilant, making sure there are a number of routes you can go if you need to avoid other dogs.

It was a large open field, but L shaped. The dog appeared from behind a hedge at least 500yds away. being a large open field there was nowhere for me to hide from it.

>not every large dog wants to maul and tread on small dogs.

And not every large dog is well behaved. as it is running towards you at speed it can be hard to tell whether it wants to play or fight.

My foster is is doing very well and is now not reacting to dogs even quite close by, but having one charging towards him at speed is too much.

>Where we go there is a Great Dane and a Japanese Chin who regularly walk together the little Chin dances happily underneath and the Dane always seems to know where his little mate is.

Thats nice for you.  I have large and small dogs too but that doesnt mean that my small dogs cant be hurt by another large rough dog.

>If other dog owners are saying they want all dogs on lead,

I am certainly not saying I want all dogs on lead but I do want to be able to walk without my dogs being assaulted by dogs that are totally out of control.  And as for the comparison of letting children just get on with playing together made by another poster. I am sure if those happily playing children were being bullied and tormented by a larger child I am sure they would intervene to stop it. but it seems I should just put up with obnoxious behaviour towards my dogs and I am at fault for wanting to be left alone. If it is OK for the doodle to run riot then maybe I should let my foster off the lead and too after all chasing and biting is all natural behaviour so is allowed. It will be fine  if I put a muzzle on him.

500yds away towards me and my dogs.

C'mone....not 500yds, my dog is not much shorter than one of those & I doubt very much I could sight her at that range, in fact without opera bins Im sure I couldnt - that said, with the right lights at night, it would be possible to pick them out at 500yds providing it was in a countryside area almost without light contamination from villages & worst still towns, but picking up a dog in daylight at that range, I doubt it.
.

apologies. I have just measured the distance on google maps and it was only 353 yards. obviously that makes all the difference!!!!

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">C'mone....not 500yds,

I can spot them from further away than that - if they are hurtling towards you it's the movement that catches your eye. I have spent a huge amount of time with my newest rescue dog getting him to remain calm as other dogs approach instead of barking and lunging. He was absolutely brilliant with all dogs until a "friendly", over exuberant dog bounced on him on two different occasions and now he reacts to dogs that pass too close to him and rush into his space. He is also a car chaser and I spent a long time getting him used to traffic but that has now gone out of the window as I can no longer walk him along streets where we may encounter another dog at close quarters.I now skulk around a local industrial estate in the dark so he can still meet cars and traffic but is not so likely to meet other dogs.

Having had this experience I can greatly sympathise with people who want to enjoy walking their reactive dogs but don't want other dogs rushing up to them. My GR has wonderful manners and is quite happy to meet and greet other dogs but I make sure it is in a controlled manner as I have learnt from bitter experience that it's very possible to turn a sociable, happy dog into a fearful, reactive dog with not much difficulty at all.

I love to see dogs running together but I only allow that to happen if all owners and dogs are happy for it to happen. Spin is quite happy to walk with, and run with, my friend's three dogs but isn't happy to have strange dogs invading his space and jumping all over him. A problem created by others that I now have to deal with.

> it's very possible to turn a sociable, happy dog into a fearful, reactive dog with not much difficulty at all.

Absolutely! 

And isn't that what we tell people with pups and young dogs?   Make sure they get lots of positive experiences when they are young so that they gain confidence and learn how to behave nicely with other dogs.

How are they supposed to have only positive experiences when there are dogs that approach at the speed of sound and knock them flying?

> there are dogs that approach at the speed of sound and knock them flying?

It's a catch22 situation. I suspect most, if not all, of those badly behaved, over exuberant dogs were not allowed to socialise as young pups. They probably had owners who put them on a lead every time they seen a dog in the distance.

If we could start tomorrow keeping reactive or aggressive dogs muzzled and out of off lead areas and letting all pups socialise themselves with friendly, calm adults without humans calling them back or pulling their collars or passing anxiety down the lead then in a few years time off lead areas would be full of calm, sociable dogs with good manners :-)