I read this on a show report, not my breed, where it was the second sentence of the bit where they say thanks to the commitee etc, before the actual critiques.

Do you agree that this is acceptable given that neutered dogs are not meant to be judged differently or do you think it was just an offhand coment?

Sounds like an odd comment.... you would expect most if not all to be entire, so why comment unless the judge has something against neutered dogs? Or are mono- or cryptorchids common in the breed?

>Or are mono- or cryptorchids common in the breed?

I'd think this was the case, in the same way as a preamble may say al dogs mouths correct, or found one level bite etc.

I wish that as preamble of general observations and any particular trends should be compulsory.  Judges can give an honest opinion on the entry as a whole without picking on any individual dogs.

I would hope that most breeders/would be breeders are aware of their own dogs failings, and putting those in context within the b4reed as a whole is more important if judging is meant to influence future breeding.

If we accept that all dogs have faults their relative importance and prevalence within the gene pool is more important to knows about than pointing them out in individuals.

Do you agree that this is acceptable given that neutered dogs are not meant to be judged differently

The HAVE to be judged differently (or rather be penalised) as not having two testicles is a fault according to any breed standard. It's then up to the judge whether they think missing testicles is more or less important than, for instance, poor ear set or incorrect eye colour or any other fault. The fact that you are allowed to show neutered dogs does not mean it is not a fault.

> The HAVE to be judged differently (or rather be penalised) as not having two testicles is a fault according to any breed standard.

It says they 'should' have 2, not they MUST have 2!!!

>It says they 'should' have 2, not they MUST have 2!!!

Which is why they can be shown.

We are one of the few countries that allows neuters to be shown in other than special neuter classes or veteran

When I first showed dogs (1989) the rule was that neuters could be shown as long as they had registered progeny (no requirement to tell the KC)..

>> It says they 'should' have 2, not they MUST have 2!!!
> Which is why they can be shown.
>
> We are one of the few countries that allows neuters to be shown in other than special neuter classes or veteran
>
> When I first showed dogs (1989) the rule was that neuters could be shown as long as they had registered progeny (no requirement to tell the KC)..

Yes, I been showing for over 32 years, so similare thing. I dont have a problem with males who were entire, have sired progeny & for health reasons have been castrated. I do have a problem with dogs who arent entire(1 or none) & never have been at any time!! We have gone into the 'should' & not the must scenario!!!

It says they 'should' have 2, not they MUST have 2!!!

Which is why it is a fault and the dog can still be shown.

I really think neuter classes would be a good idea, like in cats, with Premier instead of Champion as the title. It might encourage new exhibitors to the show ring.

>It says they 'should' have 2, not they MUST have 2!!!

That's an interesting grammatical point. :-) 'Should' is related to the word 'shall' which is used in laws, regulations, or directives to express what is mandatory, and indicates a requirement. However there's the more common alternative meaning of 'ought to' which implies a more optional situation.

> I really think neuter classes would be a good idea, like in cats, with Premier instead of Champion as the title. It might encourage new exhibitors to the show ring.

Me too. If there is a worry about monorchid or cryptorchid dogs being shown (after neutering) rather than 'genuine' castrated dogs, then a Certificate of Entirety signed by a vet before the operation would be all that's needed, to confirm the dog had two descended testicles.

Standards seem to be full of ambiguous words, like moderate or preferable and even descriptions that have had some attempt made to make matters clear are open to different interpretation. It is rare for a definite statement to appear in the standard, the one requiring two fully descend is one of the rare requirements that is clear although in most breeds bitches can get away with being neutered the judge in most cases unaware.

> although in most breeds bitches can get away with being neutered the judge in most cases unaware.

This is true - and who knows why the bitch was spayed - perhaps she was a bad mother, or carried a harmful gene. Neither of which would help further the gene pool.

So the suspicion that neutering a male might "hide" the fact it was originally mono/crypto doesn't follow through as a bitch can carry that gene and may have produced mono/cryptos herself, hence reason for spaying.

In cats, many mono/cryptos are neutered young and can still be shown - clearly that individual cat can't pass its defective genes on, but a requirement for male entirety at castration would help - but it wouldn't screen a bitch carrying the defect, who might go on to produce more mono/cryptos.

If it was as simple as never breeding from male dogs that didn't have two testicles, then the issue could have been bred out many years ago - there has to be some bitch input, so that kind of renders the KC requirement for males to have two as obsolete. One is suspicious, but a certificate of entirety for a castrated dog doesn't hide anything.

Indeed the only male I have had castrated relatively young was collected after his operation along with a letter saying that the vet had removed two apparently normal testicle fully descend into the scrotum. This was at a time when a vet's letter had to be sent with a request for permission to show. My vet it seems was aware of the requirements and provided a letter automatically.

The KC clamer to be seen as PC brought in the change to the rules when there was a suggestion that showing was responsible for the large number of unwanted puppies, and a lot of good that did.