Wasn't sure if this question would be best posted in breeding or showing....

Anyways, how do you choose which pups are staying with you and hooefully destined for the showring? Aside from the obvious undershot overshot etc etc what other factors do you consider.

I can and will run on perhaps 3 pups if needed but at what age do you make the final decision?

Over time (many litters and simply being around the breed for years) you become able to recognise potential - and for sure, it's 'easier' with some breeds, than others.  In Bassets, the faults are basically there early on so I've been able to 'reject' the obvious then, but as they do horrible things during growth, what you see, or don't see early on, may all change, and change back again!!!    It helps to have several pairs of eyes on the subject.  Perhaps the owner of the stud dog has seen what he throws in his previous litters and can help. 

We are usually able to select a couple of the bitches (we rarely kept back a male, although did!) to run on - and in truth both usually stayed because by the time it was more obvious, I'd become far too attached.   In one litter we had, of 9 (5m, 4b), I was all set to keep back the best two bitches, and then the owner of the sire came over to see them, and told me I'd be daft to let the best male go!!!   So we kept him too.   Our final decision was made as late as possible, but as said, I usually knew what wasn't going to make the grade so they went off by around 10 weeks.   If, later on, I saw them again and the ugly duckling had developed into a swan I'd try to persuade the owners to show.

I honestly don't know how Terrier breeders 'choose' - perhaps it's more by markings in some breeds at the end of the day?  This is something we don't need to worry overly about with Bassets much as some markings can give a false impression - white along the topline can make it look as if it's dipping for eg.

When researching to buy the current dog, one breeder I spoke to said she would choose which pup she would keep when the litter was 6weeks and 3 days precisely. This was a golden retriever. Didn't go with her in the end, but still,left wondering what she 'saw' at that exact age.

For my breed & I think this does happen in other breeds too, the best age to make a decision is 5 to 6 weeks.

Mind you even the 'experienced' can & do get it wrong. So much can happen between this age & 6+ months. I always say if you keep the one you want, it is your good fortune if all turns out well.

In my last litter there were 3 bitches & because I didnt want to make a bad choice, I kept all 3...they are 21 months & all 3 are staying now. Had I listened to advice given at 5/6 weeks, it would have been the right advice....never mind.

VERY much breed dependent. In my main breed pretty much every single pup I have ever bred (can really only think of a couple of exceptions) is good enough to show and win, and so what matters most is temperament. In my second breed bite is important, and tail carriage, and it can take a while to show itself, but markings matters as well, so sometimes pups can be discounted already at birth.

Best thing is get someone renowned for being able to pick a puppy, ask what age they pick and invite them along.

I invited a fair number of people to ' go through' an exciting litter of 5 I had and got as many answers as I had puppies.
Not everyone is good at sifting through and importantly ...foreseeing how a puppy will turn out so its best to learn from those who do.
One such person came to look at my early litters at around 6 weeks, set them all up and said .." All things being equal...You'll make this one up" and in each case she was spot on. She has a true gift.

Even the 'top' can regret their decisions & I have had conversations, where they say they have!

This should really help you. https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2ABDYGPrGM5YVVQcmU0aWE1TVk/preview?pli=1
I think I would maybe have made better choices in the past of which pup to keep especially when using unknown lines.

I was thinking about this more (it's been quite some years now since our last litter!!) and for my breed, what you see at 5 weeks, is usually repeated at 5 months but again with my breed, goodness knows what might happen in between!!!    Bites apart.

And there's no doubt it's 'easier' with line breeding - when you go out, the situation may well be quite different.  I used a visiting American Champion at one point although there was some connection way back with my Canadian lines.  Some of the puppies were like 'mine' and what I was used to seeing, others definitely not.   I ran on 2 of the 4 survivors, but started to think I'd sold the wrong male when the one I kept started to look really dreadful by around 12 - 18 months.   To the point I had to pull him from the ring.   He was just long, lean and lanky.  Totally unlike the sister I kept and the male I'd sold.   Happily once he bodied up, it all came back together.

With my three champion bitches I knew they were special, but have kept wrong pup in other cases, or kept pups because of sex or bloodline.

On the odd occasion a pup has stood out to me from an early age but I usually make up my mind at about 7 weeks after spending many hours watching them move. Markings aren't a deal breaker. I would look at the shape of the head, ear setting, eye colour,  the bite, shoulder placement, width of chest, length of body, hind angulation and tail carriage.
I actually find it quite useful to go over the pup on a table with my eyes closed.

Enthralling viewing. Thanks very much for the link!

Can't wait to do this with my next litter.

A great link Barbara

Really enjoyed watching this, but felt so sorry for the puppies being picked up under their necks, and some were shaking!

In borzois and silkens, like Lexis whippets the best age is 6 weeks. If I look back at stacked photos of pups at 6 weeks they have the same angles when they are fully grown. After 6 weeks they go through all sorts of awkward growth stages - back end shoots up then the front. I also like to watch puppies moving around to assess movement and tail carriage. Last year I imported a silken puppy that I didn't get the chance to visit first, I chose from 6 week stacked photos and am delighted with my choice.

Blooming awesome video thank you Brainless! Also thanks to all the other replies looking forward to evaluating my upcoming litter.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B2ABDYGPrGM5YVVQcmU0aWE1TVk/preview?pli=1

Thanks for sharing this video, Brainless, very interesting and a lot of food for thought here!

I've got the book from her covering all this and the video is really good.

we have also been using this method of selection for some years now having been to a seminar by the author in America. The main principal was to evaluate each puppy and score it to the breed standard then look at the results. In the beginning it was much more a case of "which is best" which is "pick of litter" it makes you think differently. Don't go for pick of litter if the whole litter is only mediocre to start with....it's just the best of a bad lot! Equally if another litter has 2 excellent bitches both should be kept. It focuses you on little details and actual conformation (angles) whereas in the past it was very much the one that appealed the most. That said if, like us, you are trying to breed in different colours the bar tends to be lowered when a bitch of a certain colour gets born or you have lines you need to preserve. Even if a bitch is kept that is marked lower than your agreed cut off mark you are totally aware of the shortcomings. The temperament test is also invaluable. If you don't follow the rest of the plan think about using a mirror to view the pups it is amazing what a difference it makes.

>Even if a bitch is kept that is marked lower than your agreed cut off mark you are totally aware of the shortcomings.

I've had this with bringing in new blood, the best pups were male and only one showable bitch went to start a new exhibitor/breeder off.

Second time I did keep the wrong pup as it had two traits the breed is in danger of loosing, but she is less god in some other areas, so will need great care for the best choice of stud when I finally keep a pup.  Rather hard to find such a  paragon, but her first litter I think improved on her weak points, sadly the best bitch hasn't been shown (they said wanted to show, came to shows before they had her etc, grr).  Bet male was to be shown, but owner posted abroad with work :(

Her better sister has also gone to a new person to the breed who hopes to have their first litter from her in the Spring.

Sometimes you do have to go a step back before going forward again, especially in numerically small breeds.