Hi
I bought a pup from what seemed like a decent enough breeder. All the papers etc, good health. We signed a contract that stated if we didn't want the pup for whatever reason she would accept her back. Fab!
After a short while this pup was out of control and constantly hurt our little toddler who was covered in scratches bites and who then became scared of the dog and wouldn't go near her!
So I contacted the breeder and reluctantly asked if we could return the pup and get our money back. The answer was 'I'll have her back but you can't have any money back'
Bear in mind this was only a couple of months after buying so it wasn't like it had been years!
We have a family of 5 and cannot lose the £500 we paid for her, so we sold her to a lovely family who had a farm and lots of land and another dog the same breed and apparently is thriving! We only got half the money for her but it suited us all.
The breeder has been calling and emailing (she hasn't) and threatened to startup proceedings in taking the puppy back if we don't reply to her email within 10 days! Is this legal? I want to know what you all think about her legal rights???

What does your contract state about rehoming? Does it say the breeder must be informed and they will tale bacl the pup/dog?

Well unfortunately she has no legal rights, contract or no contract  (she can take you to court but she can only win if she can prove you have lost her money -which you haven't) -but I have to be FIRMLY on the breeder's side here! YOU are in the wrong, not the breeder. Slightly depending on breed, a pup aged 4 months is not worth anywhere near as much as an 8 week old pup, and on top of that when coming back the breeder would no doubt have to spend time re-training the pup, advertising trying to find another home, or keep it. It all costs money. Clearly you have gone to a good breeder who cares, and therefore that poor breeder will now be besides themselves with worry, not knowing where their pup is! You could afford to buy the pup, you could then afford to return it when you found (too late) your household situation wasn't suitable for a puppy. You are saving by not having to pay out for dog food and vets fees etc, so the way I see it you could certainly have put the puppy's wellbeing first and returned it to the breeder.

I really feel for this poor breeder. :(

I don't believe the breeder has a leg to stand on. The pup was yours and I assume you have a receipt, KC reg in your name, vets receipts etc to show that you legally own her. You could try Citizens Advice or Trevor Copper for advice. Try to stay firm but pleasant, and don't be bullied. You can always block people.

However, I wouldn't have bought a pup while I had a toddler in the house, I would have waited until that child was at school and understood how to be around a dog/pup ( that's what I did, waited and saved).
If I was a breeder I wouldn't sell to people with children under school age living in the house.

You said that you can't afford to lose £500 but you did when you bought the dog. You then spent more every month on food, wormer, vets etc.

Did it say in the contract that she would give you money for the dog if you sent it back, and how much at what age  ? Perhaps that is something you need to think about if you ever buy a pup again.

Sadly the poor breeder is probably at her wits end.

(Mindful of that there are 3 sides to every story)

I would probably have paid you off to stop this happening. Hope the puppy has a good home.

My own contact says you return the pup to me the breeder with all relevant documents and no money will be exchanged at any time in that dogs life if you can no longer keep it and yes I would be pursuing the pup and demanding it back you have broken the contract which you have signed knowing the terms a n d conditions of sale I place the condition there for the dog in my mind I am responsible for that pup for the rest of its natural life I bred it, it is my job to ensure that is looked after properly for the rest of its life if you c an not take back any dog you have bred when needed you should not be breeding

Trevor Cooper actually brought this up at a recent seminar I went to. If the dog is registered under your name - you have the right to sell it on even if the breeder asks for it back. You are the legal owner of the animal. It was very interesting actually because a lot of breeders say this, and he said that the fact they transfer ownership to the new owner they are voiding the fact they want it back of you don't want it.

I can see where the breeder is coming from, but it would be a waste of money and time to take it to court - it would only be under the small claims court.

I fully back everything that Goldmali has said, what a nasty thing to do to the breeder,

If your toddler was covered in scratches and bruises it is because containment and supervision has not be done properly, you have a baby dog, who understands nothing and is playing, it was down to you to make sure toddler and puppy both had their needs met and not with each other. The pup needed training and one on one...........

Sounds as though the pup is now in a good home, which can meet it's needs but you seem to have been more interested in getting some money for the pup rather than giving the pup back to a breeder who cared, and would need to re-train and socialise this pup prior to a new home, quite why she placed the pup in a home with a toddler and especially one which was not going to supervise properly I don't know........... perhaps in the end you did find a much better home, but there is nothing worse for a breeder than not knowing where your pups are????

Legally, she cannot force you to give the pup back, but you have not acted correctly in all of this in respect of the pup, your child or the breeder. I would be extremely upset......... but then again, having a toddler and no idea how to supervise, you wouldn't have got one in the first place from me.

I am so upset for this breeder!

Can you not pass onto the breeder the details of where the pup is? They may well agree it's a prefect home and will want to offer the new owner a lifetime of support. Someone in one of my breeds this happened to and with the power of FB the new owner was located and the breeder made contact. All this breeder wanted to know was the dog was being cared for and that she was there should they need her.

suejaw  that`s an excellent idea, if the poster wishes to end this conflict it may help  if the breeder knows where the pup is.

Sadly the poster seemed more interested in getting some money back for the pup, not a good indication of doing whats right for the dog,  the only thing this breeder did wrong is trust to the tale someone gave them.

If only EVERY rehomed dog finds a lovely home on a farm :-(

What a shame you couldn't come to an arrangement with the poor breeder (who's now lost contact with a puppy she spent long hours nurturing) that you could return the puppy and have the balance of what she would manage to resell the puppy for (remember that older puppies are less saleable than baby ones) minus its keep and advertising costs. And remember that this pup was, in your own words 'out of control' so would need intensive rehabilitating and retraining to make it saleable. I'm sorry that this has happened but basically you let the pup down, and the breeder.

And let's hope that the lovely family home on a farm was real and not a story made up by a puppy farmer to get a cheap breeding dog to breed from over and over again.

Marianne....its the standing joke.
Parents take the dog to the pound and tell the kids its gone to live on a farm.

We can only hope that the OP visited the farm before the sale and that all will be well.

Every breeders worst nightmare, making the wrong choice of home for their puppy and then, when the owners haven't given the puppy the right time and training, selling it on!  :(

I really hope that the poor puppy is going to be OK and hasn't just been sold from the frying pan into the fire.  :(

In my contract I actually state a sum of money (twice the cost of puppy) that my puppy buyer will have to pay me if they choose to move on a puppy without me knowing. This was drawn up with the help of a barrister (she owns my dog's brother) and when I mentioned this to Trevor Cooper at one of his Dog Law Seminar's , after he's given his speech about contracts not worth the paper they're written on etc, he actually agreed that in my case I could take a buyer to court and win as I state an actual amount of money. There were many in the audience who did not agree with what I do and said they wouldn't sign it but, to be quite honest, in my breed I can sell my puppies over and over again so if anyone won't sign it , tough they can go away!!
I also say that I will return full price of puppy up to 12 weeks of age and then half up to 6 months. Yes it means I have to make sure that money is put aside for that period of time for the whole litter (have 11 in current one) but I want my puppies back and if that stops them being sold on I will do this for every litter.
In this particular case alarm bells have immediately rung as the new owners have dog of the same breed, could be entirely innocent but as the breeder I'd be livid! Saying that if I really thought one of my puppies wasn't wanted I would do anything to get it back and perhaps this pup's breeder should have bitten the bullet, handed the full price back and learnt the hard lesson to never sell to a family with young children again!

>Bear in mind this was only a couple of months after buying so it wasn't like it had been years!

I'm afraid a puppy in most breeds is like a new motor car, looses a large proportion of its selling value almost from the moment it leaves the forecourt/breeder.

A puppy months old with issues that will need to be addressed and pup rehabilitated is a 'rescue dog', and has little if any resale value. 

My own contract states:

"If through unforeseen circumstances it becomes necessary to find your dog a new home, you should contact me as I may be in a better position to find the RIGHT new home, this would normally not entail any refund, as the adopters would not usually expect to pay for an older 'rescue' pup or adult dog."

When you buy a puppy you have bought a blank page. 

The problems you describe are normal for any puppy, They are young animals, of a species that are predators, and play accordingly.  They do not know how to interact with humans appropriately, and especially with young children who they will perceive like littermates who they would rough house with, as that is the nature of puppy play.  It takes many months to two years for a puppy to grow up into a well mannered adult dog, if the training and management are appropriate.

With young children in the household this means largely segregating them for their mutual safety, and allowing only quiet fully supervised interactions.

At the very least you should let the breeder know where the puppy ahs gone so they can make contact with the new owners.  I would be horrified if one of my precious pups was passed on without my knowledge.  The breeder wants to be sure their carefully bred puppy is in an appropriate home and to be able to offer whatever help may be needed.

If you'd bought a telly, scratched it, dented it, broken it and then tried to take it back for a full refund you'd be laughed out of the shop - why on earth should you get a full refund for a pup that you have not managed and trained properly?

Plus as someone else said at the top of the thread; if you'd kept the pup, you'd have "lost" your £500 anyway.  And more on food, vaccs, vet bills, spaying cost, so on and so forth.  That line really, really hacks me off - the emphasis should be on what's best for the PUPPY, not your bank account.  If you couldn't afford to lose £500, you should not have spent it on a puppy.

Actually as it stands, most would suggest that these contracts aren't worth the paper they are written on.  HOWEVER a contract is a contract, and even if legally wouldn't stand up in Court, maybe, if challenged, there's always a moral implication there.   Fact is if the puppy was returned within a week, then  maybe you could expect to get a full, or partial refund.   I used to have a take back clause in my contracts, but that was on the basis that if this happened after a set period of time, this was only a take back - not a full refund.   Depending on the circumstances, I'd probably make a refund, less a nominal 'boarding fee' which may have amounted to very little or not if the puppy was back with me for some time (if I kept the puppy then I'd have to come to some agreement with the people involved).   I'm afraid you were wrong in expecting a full refund.

Further - as the breeder of any puppy I'd sold, I'd ALWAYS prefer to be involved in a rehome, even if I didn't physically take the puppy back - which may not always have been possible if it was a male as I had no kennelling and several resident stud dogs.

After 'a couple of months' you could have caused untold trauma/damage to the puppy, so no, a full refund wouldn't be coming from me.    If this breeder has any sense however, frustrated and sick to her stomach as she undoubtedly will be feeling about this (such a pity she couldn't have at least been involved in this rehoming so she's sure this puppy has gone to the home you suggest it has) she'll just learn a lesson for the future, and call it quits.   It's a pity there was no relationship between you and this breeder that could have helped sort out what was going on with the puppy, so he didn't have to be rehomed!!!

ps.   For once I am TOTALLY in agreement with Goldmali's comments.   And also Suejaw - can't you let the breeder know where this puppy is now so she can do some follow up checks and make sure the puppy is being looked after properly and in the 'good home' you suggest it is?   If my hair wasn't already grey over something like this, it surely would be.
Further, I sold two puppies in good faith to a fellow breeder some years ago now.  They were not sold with endorsements as I trusted this person.   Wrong.  After a successful puppy show career (one of them) I had a phonecall (at a time I was suffering with a mouth abscess!) to tell me they had 'gone'.   Gone where I said?   They'd been snapped up by another breeder in Holland.   I had a stud agreement on the male which went out the window basically.  At least I knew where they were but I was heartbroken.  And even more so when I heard the bitch had been bred 5 times - one every year to the time she was sent into a retirement home.  At least those people kept in touch with me even if the breeder in Holland didn't.  Not knowing where they were would have been awful much as it was still pretty bad.

Whilst I would be taking the same action as the breeder - ie not paying any money back for the puppy until I had rehomed it, and taken my expenses for keeping, assessing and then advertising the puppy - I do feel that the breeder has to take some blame for allowing a puppy to go into a home with babies without fully assessing the family.

In the past I have turned down at least three families which seemed wonderful, but whose actions when the puppies were brought in raised enough questions in the minds of myself and family as to their suitability for our puppies!  Puppies are not toys, and small children have to realise and respect that fact - and too many parents forget to train their children when they attempt to train puppies. :(

A response from OP who only recently joined the forum would be nice.

Wow!!! Clearly everyone with that negative view about me doesn't have children! Why might I ask 'poor breeder?' Can I also add that she turned down a previous pup from another family as they had her spayed... So how interested is she about the pups welfare? I'm not in this for money. However I tried to talk to the breeder and asked for advice at the very beginning and she got nasty. She was more than happy to listen but talk about 'money' and she got quite nasty.
I'm quite astounded at the brutality and opinionated people on here! I wish I hadn't bothered!
Thanks for your time

And just FYI, the 'farm' is an actual farm... For you sad person who thought it was a joke. A lovely place whom I know well and the owners and the dog is very very happy. Surely one of the main things! I'm pleased you can all throw money away like that! I'm certain you are all wealthy stick up your backside sados!
My kids come first, maybe if the tables were turned you are the kind of people who have social services at your door and not a 'poor poor breeder'
I know which one IDE prefer!
Losers.

What other response did you expect ?.
Your original post showed more concern for your lost money, than the welfare of the poor pup !.

>Wow!!! Clearly everyone with that negative view about me doesn't have children!

Actually, most people on here have, or had and they're now grown up. Been there, done it - so we know what we're talking about.

If your kids came first you.
1, you would not of got the pup whilst they are so young.
2, you would not of allowed the pup to scratch and chew on the child.
3,you would of taught them the correct way to socialize with animals.

I would never have social services or a poor breeder at my door because i am not incompetent at either.

I think you have very successfully shown exactly what kind of person you are in both posts. I think the dog has probably had a lucky escape from you.

Boody I think you are right.
A timely warning to screen even more carefully and to tighten up our contracts where possible.

> And just FYI, the 'farm' is an actual farm... For you sad person who thought it was a joke.

Nothing sad about it, puppy farmers can and do lie through their teeth to get more breeding stock.  It's very much a real risk.

> I'm pleased you can all throw money away like that! I'm certain you are all wealthy stick up your backside sados!

I am skint basically all the time.  I have never, ever been wealthy.  So I don't go out and pay a big chunk of money on a non-essential which, objectively speaking, is what a puppy is.  If you could not afford to "throw away" £500, then how could you afford to buy the pup in the first place?  Because had you kept her, that money would have been "lost" and plenty more on top, and that's what you expected to happen when you got pup (because you expected to have her for life).

Clearly everyone with that negative view about me doesn't have children!

I have 3 and the first grandchild on the way. All my children grew up with dogs around from the day they were born -and they all were taught how to behave around dogs, and puppies or adult dogs were NEVER left within the reach of a toddler as it isn't safe for either dog or child. My oldest grew up to prefer cats, my other two are both handling at shows including at Crufts (which they both did first time aged 14) and attending obedience training classes every week -so I think I managed quite well.

I'm pleased you can all throw money away like that!

You threw that money away the moment you bought a puppy you clearly had no idea of how to train. If you needed the money so much you should have put it in the bank, not into a puppy that would have cost you thousands over the years -as all dogs do.

Friend of mine was taken by a back street breeder who was trying to 'rope her in',   to a farm to look at a pup.   Lovely litter of puppies in the kitchen,  looked like the perfect set up.   Then they went for a walk over the hill, where there was a large shed -   full of bitches,  some pregnant,  some with young litters and a couple of stud dogs.

Turned out they had a breeding and selling license.

Biggest eye opener ever!

It's something you hear about,  but never expect to see :-(

Looks can be very deceiving.

I've had a puppy with a toddler.   Very,  very boisterous and bolshy terrier pup.   At no time did my toddler get scratched or bitten,  at no time was my pup at risk from my toddler.  

It was hard work putting the effort in to bring them both up to respect each other,  but I knew that.   It was my responsibility to ensure each was cared for according to their needs,  and managed appropriately.

They grew up firm friends,  and the pup stayed a bolshy madam until the day she died last year at 13.  At no time was social services or the rspca ever required at my door.  The toddler was handling the pup's daughter and grand daughter in shows by the age of 9 and doing it very well too.

I'm still in touch with the breeder.

You write like every breeder's nightmare.   Buy a pup and expect it to bring itself up and when it acts like a pup,  sell it on.  And of course that's everyone elses fault too.

For your information, done properly,  breeding is an expensive business that leaves most breeders out of pocket,  it's usually financed by having a decent job and preferably an indulgent OH.  We take time off without pay to look after the bitch and pups until they go.   The pups are part of the family and cared for like our babies.   But I don't expect you to understand that.   You didn't even put the effort into bringing up one innocent pup properly.

Luckily it now has a new home.   Hopefully,  the home is a good one.

Do the decent thing,  let the breeder know where the pup is.  At this stage,  it's the least you could do.

>I would probably have paid you off to stop this happening. Hope the puppy has a good home.

When dealing with puppy buyers like this I do feel that the breeder has no choice but to pay up in full.

I once drove straight from work one night to pick up a Yorkie bitch I'd sold.  I know, you can blame me for misjudging the buyer in the first place.  I felt that this pup was going to be sold on as it sounded like recouping costs was important to the buyer.  She had the pup for 2 months and I had no reason to believe anything was wrong.  Anyway, I put the £500 on her kitchen table and picked up my pup.  I remember being tired when I got back home around midnight.  But was soon beaming when mum leaped on the pup and they started to play like lunatics.  I didn't have the heart to rehome her when I saw how happy they were together. 

Can I also add that she turned down a previous pup from another family as they had her spayed... So how interested is she about the pups welfare? I'm not in this for money. However I tried to talk to the breeder and asked for advice at the very beginning and she got nasty. She was more than happy to listen but talk about 'money' and she got quite nasty.

You can't expect people to be psychic, all you said in your first post was that you got a pup from a breeder who had a contract and was willing to take it back, then after a few months you couldn't control it and it was hurting you kid and your breeder agreed to have it but but you wanted money for it so sold it and now the breeder was upset. People can only go by what info you post.

So from your first post for whatever reason you haven't managed to teach pup and kid to live together and then wanted money for the pup rather than following the contract you agreed to. So this is all people can go by when answering you

An older pup/young dog is no where near the value of a puppy to sell, add to that this pup is not well trained it makes it even harder to rehome than a older well trained adult would be. Many breeders will take the pup back, work with it if needed and rehome then give the owner any money left offer taking out for food, vet bills, training bills, advertising costs they may have incured. That would most likley eat into most if not all of the rehoming fee. Did the breeder say anything about this when you spoke to them, did they explain why they would not give you any money.

Also how would you be throwing away the £500? You lost that the day you got the pup as by now it was no longer worth that amount and if u had kept it (which I asume thats why you got it) you would not have gotten that money back ever.

People are saying poor breeder because as I said you orignal post says the breeder has done what they said, they were willing to take the puppy back and you sold it so the breeder now has no idea where a pup they bred is or if it's ok. As most here are breeders they would not want to be in that position of not knowing the fate of one of the pups they bred and would want to do all they could to help one of there pups.

It's good that you found a nice home for the puppy however you did go against your contract and the breeder does have a right to be mad, they held up there end by agreeing to take it back and now they have no idea where a dog they bred has ended up. Did you speak to them about working together to rehome the pup where u would keep it and you both look for a home so the breeder would not incur cost in taking the pup back and the new owner payed you a rehoming fee, as some breeders are happy to work with the owner rather than having the pup back to find a suitable home.

You threw that money away the moment you bought a puppy you clearly had no idea of how to train. If you needed the money so much you should have put it in the bank, not into a puppy that would have cost you thousands over the years -as all dogs do.

Maybe she was an 'investment' and going to have wall to wall puppies to sell?