Investigating the shocking reality in puppy farms and puppy smuggling

I've just turned this over it was to upsetting to watch.

I had to turn it off....it was so upsetting.

:( & people still buy from dealers who don't have the mothers :-(

It was upsetting,  but turning it off doesn't stop it happening.

They get into the 'nice' licensed pet shoptype sellers too.    Which look ok on the surface,  until you start to look at where those pups came from and how young they were when they left mum.

Plenty lf vets giving advice on why you shouldn't buy these pups.  

I would argue with the statement 'There aren' t enough puppies being bred to meet demand' which the presenter made.   The bigger problem is there aren't enough good home for the puppies already being born,  if there were,  very few dogs would end up in rescue.

Well said turning away because it is upsetting is quite cowardly as sitting there with your lovely dogs and turning a blind eye is quite awful .

You don't have to be really active in making a difference just maybe share it to your  friends and use social media as it will help

Definitely -  post it to the facebook pages of puppy sellers.   That'll please them no end :-)

But even more effective is to post it to friends and ask the m to share,  make it go viral!

Can you put the best link on here so people can forward post it ?

http://iplayer.tvcatchup.com/programme/423313/the-truth-behind-the-bargain-dog-trade-tonight

Don't know if it's the best link,  but it's iplayer,  so should work

I'm waiting to see what excuse the RSPCA will come up with for having left those Collies to suffer for two years.

Big hands up! This was me before i stumbled across champdogs one Sunday morning.  we were on our way to what i am now sure was another farm. It was "fully licensed" (like its an accolade). We decided not to go after the advice given here.

The lady who had to have a blood transfusion on her cavalier. If only she had found this site as I did she wouldn't have had all that trauma and expense.

We buyers are ignorant and really don't realise when we are looking - the pitfalls and false claims on the commercial sites you stumble across. I was cautious because of the health issues i had with the dog i took on so i was looking for 18 months before i felt confident to go ahead with even starting to visit. You confirmed my fears and when I visited the champdogs breeders the difference was so evident.

Eg - We went to an address to view a litter and were told to ring when we got there. Only to be sent on another journey to a field with kennels in it. It took us 2 hours both ways - and when I asked why they were away from the mum etc  (based on the info i had picked up from the KC website she became really aggressive).

With the Champdogs breeder it was emails and calls for 4 weeks before we were even invited to visit. Even then the whole set up was different. Mum and pups together indoors shoes off anti bac gel etc. No other litters to be visited before coming. Vet details requested along with visit to us if they deemed neccesary.

One thing i would say is i as an owner had a huge misconception about the KC and pedigree breeders and that needs to change. The more people that approach quality breeders the better for all involved.

We buyers are ignorant and really don't realise when we are looking

The sad thing is sometimes puppy buyers know were the pups come from and still hand money over. One person I know went to a breeders house where the puppies were being kept in a rabbit hutch! adults in tiny kennels and all the dogs were a state. They still payed the breeder money to save two puppies but couldn't see that they were condemning the adults to suffer by giving them money. Then there are other people who just don't care as long as the puppy is cheap or rare as 'its just a pet' as they often say.

Tish,

It's so good you writing about this,   people often believe breeders just badmouth these volume breeders, puppy et shops and bybs out of jealousy,  or to increase their own sales.    They don't understand what's really going on.

Hearing it from the buyers is a great way to get the point across :-)

So short sighted - i would rather pay top dollar knowing what it would save me in vets bills but more importantly heartache for me and suffering of the dog. 

So true Jo.

But they have no other recourse.

Reporting the seller to the local authority seems pointless as they do  nothing.

There should be a clear route for buyers to report  bad breeding establishments and know that it will be investigated. 

The lady who had to have a blood transfusion on her cavalier. If only she had found this site as I did she wouldn't have had all that trauma and expense.

That was the tip of the iceberg, though. Give it 3-4 years at most and she will have a Cavalier with both MVD and Syringomyelia, and she will be lucky if it lives to see 6.

I WISH the undercover reporters had gone to the dealer with questions about health tests! That bloke that sold them the Cavalier pup had an answer for everything, could he have wriggled out of not having health test certificates for parents and grandparents?

I had a 10 year old boy who ran from the room crying and was terribly upset at seeing animals in such disgusting conditions.....I'll tell him it was cowardly to turn it off and he should have watched it!

Sitting watching all that suffering won't make it go away either. I've got no young children it's only me and my dogs so yes I'm a coward if I can't watch it I hold my hands up to being one.

Did you see the welsh border collie at the beginning of the programme tied to that chain?  60 years ago when I was six or seven I saw a card in the wool shop window wanting a good home for a collie.  My dad and brother went and got her.  She was the spit image.  They actually brought her home just like that with the chain still attached.  They said it was terrible there.  Tied up in the cold and rain with no shelter or water.  She wouldn't come in doors.  I was woken up to see if I could entice her in.  She came in and after that would never venture further than the first part of the garden.   Luckily she was healthy and lived for 16 years.

You can now watch it on catch up https://www.itv.com/itvplayer/tonight/series-19/episode-26-tonight-the-truth-behind-the-bargain-dog-trade

It's interesting that on the one hand there aren't enough puppies bred in the UK to meet demand, and yet at the same time breeders are castigated for breeding, and causing the rescue issue.

Is the truth not more like people want and buy puppies when they have no real commitment, to long term ownership and providing for the needs of a dog.

Many such buyers would not pass muster with a good breeder.

Not pleasant to watch, but let's hope lots did - just what is needed to make people think about where they're buying puppies, in my view.

It's interesting that on the one hand there aren't enough puppies bred in the UK to meet demand, and yet at the same time breeders are castigated for breeding, and causing the rescue issue.

I think there are definitely enough pups for the responsible homes. And unfortunately that means the puppy farmers and BYBs will always have an outlet as they will sell to all those people the rest of us will refuse. :(

Never mind turing it off, I decided not to turn it ON.   I was watching the Games in any case, and recording another programme that was on at 7.30     I hope it went some way to redress the balance when it comes to 'designer dogs' vs. a well-bred purebred dog.   Did it?

The programme really wasn't long enough BUT it did say you should buy from a breeder who health tests their dogs and can show you proof of that.

I would have preferred they had mentioned " vet checked " is not the same as having health certificates.
So many people get duped on that one, believing that a once over from a vet ( if it happens at all ) is the same as health screening over generations.

>I would have preferred they had mentioned " vet checked " is not the same as having health certificates

Absolutely!

If I made laws I'd put in place...

All puppies to be born and brought up in the home
All puppies pedigree or not must come with a vaccination cert and microchip
All puppies must be seen with mum
There would be a maximum amount of puppies/ litters any one person can sell per year
I'd have a Maximum amount of breeding dogs kept on a premises (no sane person has 70 odd dogs!)
No puppy can be sold through a pet shop, NO exceptions given even Harrods
Relevant health tests carried out on all breeding dogs even cross breeds
All pet passports must be checked before entering the UK boarders
I'd abolish all puppy farms and so called 'licensed breeders'

All puppies pedigree or not must come with a vaccination cert and microchip

No thanks -that would mean pups would have to stay for too long of most breeds! Unless you give just the first vaccination, and most of us would never do that, so it means pups would need to be at least 10 weeks old before sold. And then ideally (like kittens with the GCCF) stay an extra week to ensure they are fully recovered from the vaccination, making them a minimum of 11 weeks. A lot of extra time to spend with a litter of large breeds, needing to be socialised, and a lot of time lost for the new owners.

The microchipping law comes in in 2016 anyway.

No puppy can be sold through a pet shop, NO exceptions given even Harrods

Fully agree -but Harrods have stopped selling pets anyway.

See there you go I'd have to disagree with a  few points.

For example I don't like to vaccinate my puppies before 10 weeks of age and not finish until after 12 weeks when the science shows they have the best chance of taking.

I prefer to Ear Tattoo for identification for tracing back to the breeder, as none of the chip databases guarantee to keep breeder details permanently on file.

I'd agree with you that there should have to be a maximum ratio of dogs per person caring for them (but size and breed makes a difference). 

I don't think any one person can care for more than two litters at a time (the rare occasion I have had two litters close together has been so knackering!!!).

Really agree with no third party sellers other than the stud dog owner, or rescues.  This alone would actually really make commercial breeding unprofitable and more transparent with people visiting the actual breeding premises.  An obvious place to report bad conditions should be established, maybe a section of Trading Standards.

I'd agree with abolishing large commercial breeding establishments.  How can they licence 200 breeding dogs at a farm where there is one member of staff plus 1 part timer.

I'd prefer no outright commercial breeding, but as it is considered legitimate:

For a couple to make a living from breeding you'd need them to make £20,000 profit a year.  Say half the cost of a pup is profit (they aren't showing or competing say) then they'd need to breed approximately 80 puppies a year if sold for around £500.  So certainly a limit of 15 litters for a commercial establishment, certainly no more than 20 - 25 bitches.  Evidence of re-homing ex breeding stock to be submitted and checked (no knocking on head or dumping on rescue).

Hobby breeders as now to be anyone breeding fewer than four litters or less, or 25 pups, whichever limit is reached first. 

There might need to be some leeway with going over 25 pups with a bigger litter than usual.

That could easily be just two litters in my breed!

but two large litters like that would surely be enough per year for a  hobby breeder??  Most breeders I know have 1 or rarely two litters a year, and the average in our breed is 6, litters of 10+ are pretty rare.

My worry are the odd 14+ pup litters, so maybe the puppy limit would be more sensible at 30

As soon as you put a limit on the number of puppies you'll get culling. A litter of 10 isn't unusual in my breed; 15 is considered a large litter but not exceptional.

Hobby breeders as now to be anyone breeding fewer than four litters or less, or 25 pups, whichever limit is reached first.

My council doesn't have the 4 litter rule -they want anyone with more than 2 breeding bitches to be licensed. They will class me as a hobby breeder as I show (and can prove all the costs involved with that!) and I assured them I would never have more than 2 litters in one year. So far I've never even had that and I absolutely see no need for more. Not even with my toys that have tiny litters. Sure there is less poo and mess with a tiny breed with 3 pups compared to a large breed with 10 pups, but you still have to spend the same amount training and socialising the pup you keep, finding the right homes for the others etc. And with toys staying for a minimum of 12 weeks, there's an extra 4 weeks there where you have to start lead training and socialisation etc. I could cope with one litter of each breed in the same year (NOT at the same time!) but no more.

Edited to say: 25 pups could easily mean 6 or even 8 toy litters!!

>Edited to say: 25 pups could easily mean 6 or even 8 toy litters!!

That is why I said 4 litters or less or 25 pups whichever limit is reached sooner.

That is certainly the kind of limits being set by some US administrative areas.

These programmes never show reputable breeders to demonstrate what a good breeder would do. I think there should be a more investment even government funding in people who show they are committed to the healthy, ethical breeding, as Brainless your comprehensive post shows you and others on here should be consulting (for a fee) and advising these local authorities.  Rather than some bod from the council who feels he has done his job as they have put an improvement notice on the premises. Cost wise it would make sense in that there would be less enforcement action later on.

As Jo S said there are too many buyers who don't give a damn which is therefore perpetuating the problem. They may come on here asking advice but they don't want advice they want approval for something even they have doubts about. When you open their eyes they very often get indignant. I just hope some of it stays with them!

A dog is a luxury just like kids not your god given right. They are hard work, expensive and you sacrifice loads to have one but it never feels like that when you are committed because you would rather spend time money and effort on them than anything else.

I also wish those reputable breeders would breed dogs for the puppy market as at least there would be less suffering out there - but i realise that is maybe a step too far for you.

I am new to all of this but i get the impression this has been getting progressively worse. Surely something has to change soon.

They said the welsh assembly were meeting on puppy farms  - the websites that allow eg that eternal shih tzu pup from Carmarthen, should be brought to task for collusion it's been on there for at least 3 years now does it owner have a portrait in the attic?
Tishy

> Edited to say: 25 pups could easily mean 6 or even 8 toy litters!!

Bringing 25 pups into the world every year is still a lot.... but how else can it be managed?

That is why I said 4 litters or less or 25 pups whichever limit is reached sooner.

It doesn't work though. The 4 litter situation already exists, and you have Chihuahua breeders (as in the ones supplying fashion accessories, not proper breeders) moaning about how they may only have 1 to 8 pups in the same number of litters that somebody with a large breed may get 40 + pups. So they simply mate two bitches and claim all pups belong to one. Seen it mentioned openly.

4 litters of the average size of 6 or less though is rather different to 4 litters of 10+ pups, but both currently would come under the hobby breeder heading.

I know a lot of organisations are pushing for no more than one litter, but that can really tie those of us up, as bitches aren't automatons, and there are occasions where we might breed two litters within a year (with two bitches), and then not another for a longer period.

I'd be quite happy with two litters a year being the limit for hobby breeders, but do think there ought to be a small scale breeder licence for domestic breeders who go over this but are under the level of kennels etc, perhaps under the current five litters, that is considered 'business'.

I'd be quite happy with two litters a year being the limit for hobby breeders, but do think there ought to be a small scale breeder licence for domestic breeders who go over this but are under the level of kennels etc, perhaps under the current five litters, that is considered 'business'.

Yes that's a good idea.

Sorry your son was upset but I don't think there is anything wrong in showing children of that age the real world .

I wouldn't have any concerns about letting my daughter watch it as even if she got upset I would have sat and talked to her about how these things are happening and what people are trying to do to stop it.

I am a great believer in not shielding children from things like this.

I took my eldest to Kenya when she was six and we went on a two day safari. We came across a lioness and her cubs tucking into a freshly caught antelope. Yes she got upset but I sat and talked through the reason why it happens ( the lion king circle of life was brought into the conversation ) she soon calmed down and became more interested in going out again to see more animals as she said it was good to see animals in their natural habitat :-)

My son is well aware of how the chain of evolution works....what upsets him is seeing parts of animals rotting in a so called dog kennel.

I explained to him not all puppies are brought into the world in the same conditions ours are reared and not all dogs are kept how we keep ours.

I just wasn't going to let him cry and get upset to the point of almost wailing to prove the point!!

It would be cruel to make him sit and watch it and would probably have given him nightmares.....he's an extremely sensitive boy and I have no intention of trying to change that.

He's a child.....there's plenty of time for him to toughen up naturally and "fight the cause"