Raine has a rather stubborn, but mild, ear infection.  Thornit hasn't helped because it's deep inside, and I'm trying Otodex drops atm, so far to no avail although I think it's eased the itching a bit.  She's certainly happier but the gunk is no less.  I am cleaning the ear but it can be painful for her with the gunk being down inside and of course I can't actually reach some of it!

Now obviously I will take her to the vet if it gets much worse; however as doing so will undoubtedly trigger a nasty bout of haemorraghic gastroenteritis due to the stress and as it is a risky thing due to her handling issues and a severe muzzle phobia meaning she cannot be muzzled at all (that alone is enough to trigger the HGE), I prefer to try and treat ailments at home if possible, with the vet as a last resort.

So, with that in mind; can anyone suggest a decent non-prescription option aside from the above?

ETA I'm going to feed her raw for a bit in case diet is a factor - she's been on Chappie for over a year but she also has recurrent anal gland trouble (keep getting full whatever I try) which has gotten worse lately so I think a 'factory reset' is in order!

Would your vet not let you have eardrops without bringing her in if you explained the situation or even brought in some of the gunk on some cotton wool or tissue for the vet to see? In my experience Canaural is what really works and it treats a variety of problems, but it is prescription.

Probably not but worth a try, I'll try to get hold of River's vet tomorrow if he's in to ask.  If need be I can do the handling for him, I've done that before when she ripped a claw but still better to avoid altogether as she only needs to be there to trigger it.  PITA really, even if she is much better than she used to be!

> she's been on Chappie for over a year but she also has recurrent anal gland trouble (keep getting full whatever I try)

Thatt's interesting!

I recently had my older bitch speyed and a mammary lump removed.   Knowing that she'd need some interesting food for recovery, I got some tins in,  and after reading how marvellous Chappie is, I bought a few of those.  

Within a day or so of eating the Chappie, her ears were both smelly, gunky, itchy and red!     I also found her poos deteriorated, not much, but much softer, and there was quite a bit of undigested matter, which looked suspiciously like corn kernel skins.

Maize and Corn are known to trigger a reaction in her ears :-(

I tried changing her food, but then she wouldn't eat!    So I ended up making my own Original Chappie - the stuff I remember from Waaaay back in the 60s and early 70s -   boiled rice mixed with tins of sardines :-)

This went down a treat :-)

Of course, wearing the darned bucket collar doesn't help with getting ears better, so it's taken a few weeks.
We still have one ear which is a little gunky, but it's much better, the itching has stopped, and the redness is all but gone

All I've done, is clean them out with baby oil with a few drops of eucalyptus and tea tree added, and rub a little sudocreme around the outside with a cotton pad  ;-)

I am sure, howeveer, that this is an allergy//intolerance rather than an ear infection ;-)

Well that's what I'm wondering.  She's not had an ear problem before, never in her life, and it's only been going a couple of weeks but she has had some sort of allergy before - for over a year she was constantly itching as if she was alive with fleas, but there were none.  I worked out that it was food triggered, but I never identified the trigger itself.  Fed her raw for a month and it stopped completely, then I got her back on Chappie as it's a pretty mild food and the itching didn't come back, so I've kept her on it in a sort of paranoid way!

But her glands are becoming more of a problem - I've had to empty them three times in the last month compared to the same in the time since I got her in 2010, and they need doing again even though there was not a drop left in them last time!  And now this ear thing so I am wondering if whatever caused the itching is coming back and causing these things, perhaps a really slow cumulative effect.  So I will be doing the raw reset as I did before to at the very least, give her body a boost.

I found that raw feeding sorted the anal gland problem and using Advocate instead of Frontline cured the ears.

Thing is, Chappie has changed so much since I saw it last!  Then it was just fish and rice, and you'd see large chunks of fish in it and whole grains of rice.

I wonder if the ingredients change regularly?   Reading the ingredients, gives no idea really of what's in it - apart from white fish, cereals and chicken - no matter which variety you buy.   

Cereals could mean anything - wheat, rice, maize/corn, barley, just to name a few.

For my dogs it's corn/maize that causes problems.   And it's amazing just how many foods contain it now :-(   One manufacturer told me it's because wheat has gone up in price :-(

Very frustrating :-(
Poor dog, I can totally sympathise
I had the itching myself for years.  It got really bad, my scalp was raw as I'd scratch in my sleep    Then someone suggested wheat allergy and to check the shampoo.   Yup it had hydrolysed wheat protein,  changed to one without and it cleared.  Had it again recently, thought I'd picked up lice at a cinema, but no, the shampoo ingredients had changed - to include wheat!

have you considered a dose of advocate in case of ear mites?

It's the dry chicken variety she's on.  While I was feeding her raw I did try her on a few different grains and none of them trigger the itching - it stopped within a few days of putting her on it and that was that.  She can have any treats without it being triggered again, which is what makes me think that it's a very slow accumulation/intolerance issue rather than a big allergy.

I've not tried Advocate - she was Advantaged a few weeks ago but I've never used Advocate, too expensive and it's the vet thing again.  I don't know if mine will sell it without seeing the dog, I'll ask about that today too.

Right.  They won't give me anything without seeing her, as she's not been in for a few years on account of the issues.

So I've briefed them, explained the ins and outs of the issue and nearly had a moment where they weren't going to see her at all because of the muzzling issue, but a bit more explaining and asking if she could be examined outside as that will take a lot of the stress out and we're booked in for next Wednesday.

She should be ok like that, not being inside the building will help and I can do the handling, and as it's her front end it'll minimise the stress of the examination (further back you go, the worse it gets).  I'll give her a hefty dose of melatonin before we go too.

I've never used advantage so just googled it, the info I found suggests it only treats ear mites in cats and doesn't cover lungworm? A shame as I was hoping to find a cheaper option than advocate myself! I only use it occasionally but some of my dogs plus my reactive dog is also having niggling ear trouble and I'm wondering about advocating them to see if it helps.

Advantage is fleas only as far as I know, I used it because I had 7 dogs and a stubborn flea problem but nothing else and I didn't want to shell out for Advocate for that (comparing £22 odd to do everyone online with Advantage to at least one £25 consult fee and the vet cost of Advocate - £36 odd for a 3-pack for the bigger dogs).

Advantage is the same stuff as Advocate but the latter has another ingredient that does everything else - to the best of my knowledge, it does fleas, ticks, mites etc and all worms except tapeworm.  It does do lungworm, Advantage doesn't.

Do ear mites always show ? might be a strange question but Brooke has been treated for gunky ears no real infection possibly mites  just black gunk starting  deep down.She Had to have an ear wash.as the ear cleaner and drops didn't work She has started shaking her head again and the vet has given her an anti-inflamatory as this time there is nothing really to show. She has improved but not enough for me.
Do you think its worth trying advocate, was going to try thornit again but think it right down inside as there is nothing to show. Either that or it has become habit shaking her head.
Goodness knows how I track an allergy  she has no other signs or redness or itchiness elsewhere and is raw fed

That's exactly what I'm getting with Raine.  There was a bit of gunk visible to start with but now, it's all deep inside.  No smell, no redness, just itching and the black gunk right down inside.

If it's still an infection such as pseudomonas you'd be best with tailored antibiotics (had a dog with this in her nail beds once, weirdly).  Allergies are trickier - you can do an exclusion diet, which means starting with novel food sources (e.g. sweet potato and venison, something the dog has never had) for 8 weeks or so then gradually adding in one foodstuff every week or two and watching for a reaction.  Very slow and time consuming but probably the most reliable way to do it; or, you can get allergy testing done which will pick everything up straight away and grade the severity of any allergies, but the reaction doesn't always correlate with the severity from what I've seen.  But it can be useful for giving the dog a low/no allergen diet for a while to let the body recover a bit.

Blooming annoying ? wonder if vet will test for anything more ? do they test for pseudomonas ?  currently she is feeling fine as she is at my feet demolishing an empty yoghurt pot !
I can start working through novel proteins but as you say its a long job. My instincts say its not food related ,she always been raw fed except for the first 10 weeks and she is now three. All was well until about three months ago when the gunky ears and scratching a shaking her head started.. I think it has also changed her behaviour towards some other dogs. She now can get snappy if someone comes towards her or past her only dogs she is fine with humans she is also a bit head shy now. Not surprising considering the amount of mucking about that has been done. Guessing the two are connected so having to work on that too
Looks like I will try a week of thornit then back to vet if no improvement. As you say its probably to far in to be sorted by thornit

>My instincts say its not food related ,she always been raw fed except for the first 10 weeks and she is now three. All was well until about three >months ago when the gunky ears and scratching a shaking her head started..

It's possible to suddenly develop an allergy to just about anything :(

I didn't start getting Hayfever until I was 15!  

Yes, it's a potch doing the elimination diet, and yes! it does take a long time.   But it is very effective.  And if the food causing the problem is stopped, the body can start to recover straight away, although it can take a few weeks to a couple of months to really see the difference ;-)

Had to do this with my DS at age 2.  Took ages to discover all the foods he was intolerant/allergic to, although a blood test showed up wheat straight away.   But it meant that he was able to grow and develop normally :-)

Far better than continuous medications that only mask the symptoms :-)

> do they test for pseudomonas ?

Yes, this is how Soli's problem was identified.  We'd spent a month already trying to get on top of the problem as her nails were falling off, in the end a sample was taken and sent away and the pseudomonas identified.  For an ear I expect they could just do a swab.  The vets said how weird it was at the time because usually, it is seen in ears so lord only knows how she got it in her nails!

First of all you really do need a vet to identify what's causing all this with her ears.   Thornit hasn't ever worked with mine I have to say.   If this isn't mites (which will need a specific treatment - and identification first by your vet who will have the instruments to see deep into the ear!!) then to avoid what can happen with the 'try this, try that' approach, get your vet to do a swab, culture and I/D so you get the correct antibiotic.   There's absolutely no point putting moisture down an ear for the sake of it - it only makes a perfect breeding ground.   Unless the correct antibiotic is identified, via swab/culture, you maybe into this try this, try that, approach which only empties a Bank account.

If she has a problem with the vet (and he may well agree to examine her outside, in your car?) try giving her Kalm Aid which is a non-drug remedy for specific events, such as this kind of trauma.   And good vets/staff know how to approach fearful patients, or should, in any case.

Anal glands.   These are scent glands, and as such, should NEVER be 'empty'.   Working as they should, with a small amount of fluid being discharged with the passing of every normal stool, they shouldn't need touching.   It's just when things go wrong, the stool isn't normal, periods of diarrhoea, or even the opposite, that they can become clogged, and maybe infected which means your vet should empty them manually and see what comes out - treating as needed which is usually via flushing and packing with antibotics.    They will still refil and if the original cause of all this isn't addressed (usually diet - not enough fibre) the same problem will happen again.   Most dogs don't need their AGs touching for their entire lives, which is how it should be.

ps   None of our hounds has ever had a reaction to Chappie which I always have in stock, in case of need.

thanks dill I know you can develop allergies anytime , I have just developed an allergy to water !!! yep !
Think we may take a trip to the vet again .

Just to add some info on the weirdness that is dog's ears,

My Afghan x  had trouble with his ears for years (not a joke ;-) )

The vets tried everything, but the head shaking scratching and apparent itch continued, as did the waxy discharge. 

It got so bad they were talking operation to permanently open the ear canal down his neck !

He needed his teeth cleaned, so I asked the vet to have a really good look in his ear, as it had become impossible to do while he was awake as it was so irritated and the skin had become permanently inflamed.   I'd always thought there was something in there, possibly a foreign body, as he was always picking up grass seeds in his long coat.

Turned out it was a POLYP on a long stalk, which was moving around and causing the irritation.   Removed in two seconds and all problems with that ear sorted.   Took a long while for the skin to recover but it did eventually

omg how good but what a nuisance and poor dog having itchy ears for that long. Good job it was found before the operation because that s a particularly horrid one . It really bothers me any of the dogs scratching . I hear her particularly at night before she settles and if she wakes in the night, he collar rattles its horrid for her.

It was awful.  Used to break my heart that he was so uncomfortable and nothing seemed to help :(  He also had skin allergies, which were down to diet, but awfully difficult to sort out in those days. It was the 80's and info was limited, and all the vets were convinced that Kibble was the food of the gods, completely balanced diet etc.   these days we know it's much more complicated.

I insisted on them taking a good look while he was 'out of it' because I wasn't convinced it was an infection ;-)    It just wasn't right IYSWIM  call it gut instinct or whatever.

With my present bitch, I know that once her food is right, her ears will be right.   I've known the food recipe change to show up in her ears before they change the info on the bag!  and confirmed it by emailing the company.

The vets said how weird it was at the time because usually, it is seen in ears so lord only knows how she got it in her nails!
My vet said virtually the same when Zuma was on anti-bs for some months with P-Monas on the end of his nose just on the 'leather' right at the end! The vet did swabs from the end and also inside the nostrils.

you can develop allergies anytime
A X-breed I used to have developed an allergy/intolerance to Repnor gold feed after eating it for 5-6 years!!!, this was back in 1993 when there seemed to be far less tests available and we had a devil of a job to work out why his belly/inside thighs were getting BRIGHT red and developing small bumps -not much itching though. just trial and keeping notes of different foods and ingredients, we changed him to JW in the end.

Thornit has always worked with mine before Rai - I had an old dog who came to me with a very similar infection, deep seated and had been there literally for years, nothing to see with the naked eye and no smell.  She went to the vet, she had various drops, nothing worked until I started treating it with Thornit.  Cleared up inside a fortnight.  So it's my first line of defense now and with a dog like Rai, as less-than-ideal as it may be, home remedies have to be my initial approach (unless it's something that I obviously can't fix, of course).

> If she has a problem with the vet (and he may well agree to examine her outside, in your car?) try giving her Kalm Aid which is a non-drug remedy for specific events, such as this kind of trauma.   And good vets/staff know how to approach fearful patients, or should, in any case.

As I said earlier, I will be giving her a big dose of melatonin before we go in (brilliant for both one-off trauma and chronic stress).  Kalm Aid and other remedies (aside from the xanax) do nothing for her, but melatonin really does work - it's the only thing that will stop a bout of HGE from developing if she's been badly stressed.  And as I also said earlier, I've already asked the vet about seeing her outside, which is what he'll do.

IME most vets and staff are not good about approaching the really serious patients - there's a difference between an anxious/nervous dog and one that becomes seriously stressed to the point of either hysteria and/or biting (all of which I have).  One of them is actually responsible for Paige's response to a visit now (I have to carry her in to the consult room as she just freezes and refuses to move) because she cannot read stress and ignored my requests about handling - Paige is only a mildly anxious dog at the vet's.  She did the same thing with the above oldie.  This is why I'm seeing the vet I'm seeing - of all the vets there he listens to me the most and I know he'll follow instructions.  I'm only taking dogs to him, now.

Well, we're back.  Will was happy to do his consult outside in the sunshine and Rai was very good :-)  Worried, doing some determined head turns away from him (folded herself in half at one point) and leaned into the opposite side of the car, but she did let him do what he needed to and no grumping.  He didn't believe me when I said she can bite!  Thought she was ever so sweet.

We have Otomax gloop to clear up the infection, which fortunately isn't too bad - he can still see her eardrum clearly, it's just a ruddy persistent infection.  Back in a week for a checkup.

All in all not bad going :-)