My dog had Nobivac DHPPi and Nobivac Lepto 2 for both her puppy vaccinations.
The breeder did not say that she had had any problems after her first jab, and I took her to a different vet from my usual to get the same brand for the second puppy jab.

For her first annual booster she had Vanguard CPVL dapi (?)  at my usual vet. To cut a long story short she had a sort of collapse about 30 or so minutes after this booster. She couldn't sit or stand and looked 'vacant' behind her eyes. Her breathing wasn't affected . After a couple of hours she bounced back to normal but I definitely don't want her having Vanguard again and I am a bit nervous about her having any jab, although she will need one for the dog sitter in February.

I am going away without her in a little over a week and she was due a yearly booster in June but she has recently been spayed so I was going to wait for the vaccination until I got back. I didn't want to do too much at once.
However I have just received a second reminder from my vet saying that if she is more than 2 months overdue she will need to have another primary vaccination course.
I thought that this was wrong info and that you would only ever continue the course, not restart it ?

You are correct, and the WSAVA (world small animal veterinary association) supports that.  The double-vacc course is given to puppies specifically to counteract any interference from the maternal antibodies, with the first annual booster being done in case any lingering antibodies prevented proper uptake of the vaccine: after that, there is no need to "restart" an adult dog at all.

It is stated in one of the WSAVA vaccination guidelines, I'm just trying to find it for you - you can take that in to the vet and give it to them, then (in theory) they should only do the one shot.  Dogs cannot go 'overdue' - quite apart from the fact that immunity is now known to last for years from vaccines, if not for life, no-one can put a time limit on it and it's different in different vets.  Mine say 3 months, another locally says 6... but it's all just a figure given to give them a time at which they can advise a restart.

The other question I was going to ask was, what vaccine do they give for the annual booster, is it the same as a puppy vaccine ?
Obviously I don't want Vanguard again but do they do Nobivac as an annual booster as she was OK  for the puppy jabs with that ?

And surely I would be OK to wait another couple of weeks until I get back ? I need to worm her before I go and with the recent spay I don't want to throw too much at her after the annual booster collapse.

Many people do not vaccinate every year so I am sure that leaving it for a few weeks will not cause a problem, but make sure there is not an outbreak of infection in the area you are visiting.

>do they do Nobivac as an annual booster as she was OK  for the puppy jabs with that ?

Yes, it's fine as a booster,but yu'll need to ring round practices in your area to find out which of them have it.

If you google (sorry no good at links) Nobivac Product Data Sheet, you will see that once a puppy is over 10 weeks old, then only one DHP or DHPPi is needed and not two in any case, so why your vet insists upon doing a full course of puppy vaccs  (if started before 10 weeks - ie 8 weeks) as a booster, goodness only knows...

You can't booster immunity in any case. You are either immune or not - same as you are either pregnant or not mmm...

I know others will disagree.

WSAVA vaccination guidelines .
[url=].   http://www.wsava.org/sites/default/files/VaccinationGuidelines2010.pdf  [/url]

> The other question I was going to ask was, what vaccine do they give for the annual booster, is it the same as a puppy vaccine ?

The current recommendation is to give the core vaccines every 3 years and lepto and parainfluenza in the interim years.  She should have had the cores for her first booster so this year would be the interims.

I have lots of anecdotal evidence of issues with these US vaccines like Duramune and Vanguard.  Never had any issues with Nobivac or Canigen.

An adult dog was rushed back into the vets when eh collapsed in the car, and they Duramune rep was there at the time, he had adrenaline and owners told never to vaccinate him again.

Personally I vaccinate as pups, booster a year later and do not vaccinate again. 

This is actually what a lot of people used to do before annual vaccination became the norm in 1978.

I don't know of any outbreaks and I do talk to a lot of dog walkers.
I think I will stick to my plan and leave it for now, then get a booster before Feb when she is going to the dog sitter. She will also need kennel cough then, is it all the same brand or do I need to look for any special one considering her reaction to the Vanguard ?

I am thinking of changing vets - I am not too happy with that letter. It is almost threatening.

Given she has had a reaction I wouldn't be vaccinating again.
have a look at canine health concern that will give you some useful info

Agree with Furriefriends I would not risk a booster if the dog had a bad reaction the first time, you don't know which component of the injection caused the adverse reaction.
A lady who came to our club lost her beautiful boy, he had an adverse reaction as a puppy the vet claimed it was nothing to do with the vaccination, but when he received his booster a year later he became seriously ill and lost his fight a couple of weeks later.
You could have a in house titre test (Vaccicheck) done to test immunity, would then put your mind at rest, regardless of any outbreaks.
Regarding the pet sitter, ask if they will accept titre tests, there are information leaflets that you can download and give to them on the Canine Health Concern Website.

On my breed specific forum a chap has had to have drains put in a huge abcess that is now spaning over both her shoulder blades. He initially thought it was a reaction to the lepto vaccine but the vet is adamant that germs must have entered the needle site. He sought a second opinion and the other vet at same practice thinks its an adverse reaction to either one of the jabs. He was also unhappy with the jab site as he prefers in the neck and these were further down between the shoulder blades. I think hevwill be refunded and the current treatment also paid for as original vet kept pushing it under the carpet.

Okay.   Recent thinking re boosters is all puppies should have the full set any time from 8 weeks.  After that provided they have a booster (for the lot) 12 months on from that, they should be good to go for 3 years apart from the booster for Leptospirosis which 'dips' and is still needed to be given annually.   Caution - not all Boarding Kennels will accept this new thinking and like to see utd boosters being done within the previous 12 months.

Mine have always had Nobivac shots, but last time, after I switched vets here in town, had Canigen DHPPi and Lepto 2 (a manufacturer I'd not heard of before!!)     Mine are now on the 3-yearly routing, + annual Parvo.   Not all vets will promote this new thinking - kerching.

This 'going over and needing to start again' shouldn't apply provided your dog had her full puppy shots and a booster 12 months on.

Although we now live in a heavily populated doggie area (plus summer visitors!), I have always stopped boosters from around 7 years of age.   I may have to rethink this now we live other than in the 'boonies'.   And I'd always be aware of anything like Leptospirosis or Parvo breaking out locally.  

The only way to know whether your dog is 'at risk' for any of the sometimes fatal dog diseases, is via a titre test.   But that's not necessarily accurate, and could cost as much, if not more, than boostering (although no risks involved!).   I checked a few years back and was quoted £60 for this to be done.  These were vets who knew how to charge - I've since changed.

UK.

I'm confused, I had Daisy in at the vets earlier this year to have her jabs done, there was a Parvo outbreak not far from us, my vet was quite happy to give her just the one Parvo inoculation, despite it being five years since she'd had her last one, but he said she wouldn't need another for three years.
Is it the vets or the manufacturers that have different protocols ?.

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Although we now live in a heavily populated doggie area (plus summer visitors!), I have always stopped boosters from around 7 years of age.   I may have to rethink this now we live other than in the 'boonies'.   And I'd always be aware of anything like Leptospirosis or Parvo breaking out locally.

Actually it sir dogs living in the boonies whose immunity will be less strong.

dogs in heavily populated doggy areas, dogs at shows and canine events who will constantly be topping up their immunity, from environmental challenge.

The science actually shows that a mature dog vaccinated will have immunity for over 7+ years or lifetime.
http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/duration-of-immunity-to-canine-vaccines/

The 3 year protocols are advice from The international Veterinary association:
http://www.wsava.org/guidelines/vaccination-guidelines

The acknowledged expert on canine immunology:
http://www.news.wisc.edu/8413

A lot of Companion Care Vets (Inside Pets at home stores) are now stocking vaccicheck. Also medivet practises have now agreed to stock it at all their practises.
It covers the core vaccines and the price should be around £25-£30.

If the test shows a positive result then the dog is immune to that disease. Giving further vaccinations will not make it more immune. You cannot booster immunity it is a myth.

You could give me a Polio Jab every year, but it would not make me more immune to Polio as I already have immunity it is the same with dogs.

I had one of my dogs react badly to puppy vaccines and was told not to have them done again.
He and both my other dogs came in frequent contact with rescues dogs bought in from welsh pounds
and despite coming into frequent contact with kennel cough etc. none of them ever came to any harm.
In fact the one time I had one of them titre tested the antibodies were high, indicating contact with
with infected dogs.
Not advising everyone do it, obviously it would depend on individual dogs, but mine were all fine

dogs in heavily populated doggy areas, dogs at shows and canine events who will constantly be topping up their immunity, from environmental challenge.

So that's why last year, we had an outbreak of both Parvo, and Leptospirosis down here in our 'holiday town' ....?

So many ideas about what's right with all this.    As I've said, we now vaccinate puppies, both sets (UK) and then booster 12 months on and then they are on a 3-yearly schedule plus Leptospirosis boostered annually.   As previously, I may well stop any boostering beyond 7 - 8 years.   Rather this than risk mine going down with one of the sometimes fatal dog diseases.   If we all stopped vaccinating/boostering then my money is on the now seldom seen diseases like Distemper, becoming more rife.

Each to their own however.

Is it the vets or the manufacturers that have different protocols ?.

I suspect it's six of one and half dozen of the other.   With the cynic in me favouring the vets!!!

>So that's why last year, we had an outbreak of both Parvo, and Leptospirosis down here in our 'holiday town' ....?

No that's likely because unvaccinated dogs were brought in and dogs that had no protection were affected.  Not because they hadn't had a recent booster.

Some of this may be because puppies are being vaccinated before maternal antibodies have waned.  Puppies never used to get their final puppy course vaccine until they were over 12 weeks of age (the age that most dogs will have an immune system ready to take up vaccination).

One of our regular posters had a fully vaccinated pup develop Parvo and very nearly died.

When she was titre tested she was found to only have antibodies to the Parvo, (as she had been affected) not for any of the other diseases she had been vaccinated against.  She had ben vaccinated at 8 and 10 weeks, the modern UK puppy course.

So there may be many young dogs around who have no protection until they get that booster a year later.  It does make sense to have the booster as they do in the USA after the immune system is known to have matured at 16 - 20 weeks.  For the core diseases only one vaccination is needed after the dog is mature, so this idea of needing a  full course is flawed also, and just a way to scare people into the vets on time for boosters they probably don't need.

This article may make it clearer. http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

I'm really not overly keen on the 8 week start to vaccinations, I appreciate people want to get their puppies socialised, but I've found with a bit of fore thought and common sense, you can still socialise a puppy and keep it safe.
In preparation for my next pup I've already had this discussion with my vet who's quite happy to stick to the old 10 week / 12 week protocol.
I'd rather wait those extra two weeks and have a greater chance of the vaccine having taken.

>I've already had this discussion with my vet who's quite happy to stick to the old 10 week / 12 week protocol. <br />I'd rather wait those extra two weeks and have a greater chance of the vaccine having taken.

Exactly what I am now doing and advising new puppy owners.

They all get a copy of this article  http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

My vet must be a bit old school. I bought my pup and she was vaccinated by the breeder at 8 weeks - (obviously couldn't be socialised until the second set). I thought that was at 10 weeks but my vet didn't let me get her second course until she was 12 weeks! I'm guessing this is in theory better?

In theory it's 'better' in that the vaccine is likely to 'take' better, but it holds back the socialisation by a long time - many breeds are too heavy to carry far by 8 weeks, certainly by 10 weeks and no chance at all at 12.

Jeangenie, that reminds me of my first dog, desperate to do the right thing, I used to carry him everywhere at 12 weeks old, being a rather large GSD pup, I just about gave myself a hernia !.
Thank god for slings and dog buggies, that's all I can say, at the much older 48 I am now, I think I'd have a heart attack if I tried that today  lol.

I do feel that, on balance, it's better they're vaccinated maybe slightly too soon than is ideal and got out and about, than kept at home those few precious weeks.

I suspect it's six of one and half dozen of the other.   With the cynic in me favouring the vets!!!

Well I think I would prefer to take the advice of the worlds leading expert in canine immunology, who has spent a lifetime doing scientific research and advises the vets and drug companies. You can't really argue with scientific data, carried out in a university. It is largely down to the work of Schultz and Dr Jean Dobbs pushing the drug companies that protocols have moved to 3 years.

Vets actually get very little training on immunology in vets school, and then get most of their information from a data sheet.
Just like I would much prefer to take the word of a consultant at the hospital (expert in their field) than my own GP.

Over vaccinating has been proved to compromise the immune system, leaving the dog more open and prone to the disease not less.
The best protection a dog can have to disease is a healthy immune system built through good feeding and husbandry.

If you're in the UK Leptospirosis is ridiculously rare.  Even Nobivac say that only about 200 dogs a year get it out of the estimated 10 million dogs in the UK.  The vaccine causes more adverse reactions than any other.  The WSAVA Guidelines say that it should only be given to dogs in high risk areas, so that means not the UK.

I hope your vet has reported this vaccine reaction but I'll bet money he hasn't.  You can do it yourself and you should because these adverse reactions are under reported because vets usually won't do it.

The vaccine datasheet for the DHPPi will say that it should be given every 3 years, however the WSAVA Guidelines say that you should only booster if the dog no longer has immunity.  In other words titre test to find out whether the vaccine is even necessary.  The reason WSAVA say this is because they also say that over vaccination is causing chronic ill health in our dogs and no dog should be given an unnecessary vaccine at any time in it's life.

Once a dog has had a bad reaction it is likely to be much worse next time, possibly life threatening.  If this was my dog she wouldn't get any further vaccines, but only you can decide.

>The WSAVA Guidelines say that it should only be given to dogs in high risk areas, so that means not the UK.

People die of it in the UK, so I'd say that makes it a risk area.

According to government statistics there were 72 cases of leptospirosis in 2012 approx. a third of these were contracted abroad, and in the main involved people undertaking water sports, and due to abrasions.

There was one  fatality a woman from the travelling community.

There is no vaccination for humans against leptospirosis, and if you think of the number of people who work on sewage or water treatment plants or vermin control you would expect the figures to be far higher if there was a real risk in the UK.

http://www.hpa.org.uk/webw/HPAweb&HPAwebStandard/HPAweb_C/1317139445731

>and in the main involved people undertaking water sports, and due to abrasions.

Exactly; how many people ensure their dog has no abrasions when they let it swim in ponds, or rivers, or canals?

If you're in the UK Leptospirosis is ridiculously rare.

That may be so, BUT we did have an outbreak here on the N.Cornwall coast recently.

Clearly the only way to be absolutely certain what a dog needs at any point, it by titre testing.

Our puppies were always given their first vaccination shot at 10 weeks. 

Vets will have you believe that there is an outbreak of parvo or lepto when there is only one case.  Check.  Ask them how many and where they are.  Most vets in the UK haven't seen a case of lepto for many years.  I followed the Nobivac parvo page on facebook for a while and I looked into the so-called 'outbreaks'.  In nearly every case they were from one household or it was one puppy bought from another part of the country.  Vets make 15%-20% of their income out of annual vaccinations and, sadly, even though they now know that over vaccination is making our dogs ill they continue with this practice for one reason only - profit.  And do bear in mind that when your dog ends up with chronic disease like arthritis, diabetes, cancer, autoimmune disease etc. your vet then has a customer for life who he/she can make a fortune out of.  It's a sad state of affairs when so many vets have stopped being healers and become drug reps.

According to the NHS leptospiros "is rare in the UK. For example, only 44 cases were reported in England and Wales during 2011. Of these, 15 cases originated overseas and none were fatal."  Read it for yourself if you don't believe me.

http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/leptospirosis/Pages/Introduction.aspx

If you still believe that lepto is anything other than rare in the UK you're allowing your vet to use scare tactics to make money out of you and unfortunately it's your poor dogs who will suffer if they are one of the many damaged by the lepto vaccine

I don't know where you heard this but it's nonsense.  It's almost unheard of for people to die from lepto in the UK.  According to the NHS "In 90% of cases, leptospirosis only causes mild flu-like symptoms, such as headache, chills and muscle pain.
However, in some cases the infection is more severe and can cause life-threatening problems, including organ failure and internal bleeding. In its most severe form, leptospirosis is also known as Weil's disease."

Can cause life-threatening problems... not that the other 10% die or come near to it

>It's almost unheard of for people to die from lepto in the UK.

It's always a tragedy when it happens though. Most people who get it aren't famous and so it never gets publicised.

Also vaccines for Lepto only cover up to 4 of the disease causing serovars and rarely last a year anyway.

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/lifelong-immunity-vets/

"Minimum Duration of Immunity for Canine Vaccines:

Distemper- 7 years by challenge/15 years by serology
Parvovirus - 7 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology
Adenovirus - 7 years by challenge/ 9 years by serology
Canine rabies - 3 years by challenge/ 7 years by serology"