Food for thought!!

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/three-reasons-to-reconsider-spayneuter/

I can't get at it - just keeps saying connection refused, may be the server we use in work :(  can you copy and paste the article at all or give a general gist?

Here is the Article Roxylola,

By Dr. Becker

A recent study raises even more questions about traditional spay/neuter practices for U.S. dogs.

The study, titled "Evaluation of the risk and age of onset of cancer and behavioral disorders in gonadectomized Vizslas,"1 was conducted by a team of researchers with support from the Vizsla Club of America Welfare Foundation. It was published in the February 1, 2014 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association.

Like previous research on Rottweilers and Golden Retrievers, the results of the Vizsla study are a call to action to take a closer look at current neutering recommendations.

Vizsla Study Results

The Vizsla study involved 2,505 dogs, and reported these results:

Dogs neutered or spayed at any age were at significantly increased risk for developing mast cell cancer, lymphoma, all other cancers, all cancers combined, and fear of storms, compared with intact dogs.
Females spayed at 12 months or younger, and both genders neutered or spayed at over 12 months had significantly increased odds of developing hemangiosarcoma, compared with intact dogs.
Dogs of both genders neutered or spayed at 6 months or younger had significantly increased odds of developing a behavioral disorder, including separation anxiety, noise phobia, timidity, excitability, submissive urination, aggression, hyperactivity, and/or fear biting. When it came to thunderstorm phobia, all neutered or spayed Vizslas were at greater risk than intact Vizslas, regardless of age at neutering.
The younger the age at neutering, the earlier the age at diagnosis with mast cell cancer, cancers other than mast cell, hemangiosarcoma, lymphoma, all cancers combined, a behavioral disorder, or fear of storms.
Compared to intact dogs, neutered and spayed dogs had a 3.5 times higher risk of developing mast cell cancer, regardless of what age they were neutered.
Spayed females had nine times higher incidence of hemangiosarcoma compared to intact females, regardless of when spaying was performed, however, no difference in incidence of this type of cancer was found for neutered vs. intact males.
Neutered and spayed dogs had 4.3 times higher incidence of lymphoma (lymphosarcoma), regardless of age at time of neutering.
Neutered and spayed dogs had five times higher incidence of other types of cancer, regardless of age of neutering.
Spayed females had 6.5 times higher incidence of all cancers combined compared to intact females, and neutered males had 3.6 times higher incidence than intact males.
Vizsla Researchers Conclude More Studies Are Needed on the Biological Effects of Spaying and Neutering, and Also on Methods of Sterilization That Do Not Involve Removal of the Gonads.

The Vizsla researchers concluded that:

"Additional studies are needed on the biological effects of removing gonadal hormones and on methods to render dogs infertile that do not involve gonadectomy. Veterinarians should discuss the benefits and possible adverse effects of gonadectomy with clients, giving consideration to the breed of dog, the owner's circumstances, and the anticipated use of the dog."

(The full Vizsla study can be downloaded here.)

I absolutely agree with the researchers' conclusion that studies are needed on alternative methods of sterilizing dogs that do not involve removing the gonads. As I explained in an earlier video, over the years I've changed my view on spaying and neutering dogs, based not just on research like Vizsla study, but also on the health challenges faced by so many of my canine patients after I spayed or neutered them. These were primarily irreversible metabolic diseases that appeared within a few years of a dog's surgery.

My current approach is far removed from the view I held in my early days as a vet, when I felt it was my duty and obligation to spay and neuter every dog at a young age. Nowadays, I work with each individual pet owner to make decisions that will provide the most health benefits for the dog.

Whenever possible, I prefer to leave dogs intact. However, this approach requires a highly responsible pet guardian who is fully committed to and capable of preventing the dog from mating (unless the owner is a responsible breeder and that's the goal).

My second choice is to sterilize without desexing. This means performing a procedure that will prevent pregnancy while sparing the testes or ovaries so that they continue to produce hormones essential for the dog's health and well-being. This typically involves a vasectomy for male dogs, and either a tubal ligation or modified spay for females. The modified spay removes the uterus while preserving the hormone-producing ovaries.

The cases in which I opt for a full spay or neuter usually involve an older dog who has developed a condition that is best resolved by the surgery, for example, pyometra (a uterine disease in female dogs), or moderate to severe benign prostatic hyperplasia (an enlarged prostate in male dogs) that is impeding urination and/or causing the animal discomfort. Generally speaking, mature intact dogs have had the benefit of a lifetime of sex hormone production, so the endocrine imbalances we see with spayed or neutered puppies don't occur when dogs are desexed in their later years.

A Word About the Problem of Homeless Pets and Spaying/Neutering

It's important to understand that I'm not advocating the adoption of intact shelter animals to people who may or may not be responsible pet owners. Shelter veterinarians don't have the time or resources available to build a relationship with every adoptive family, so all the animals in their care must be sterilized prior to adoption to prevent more litters of unwanted pets.

Would I prefer that shelter vets sterilize rather than desex homeless pets, so that those animals, too, retain their sex hormones? Absolutely I would. But for the time being, the U.S. shelter system isn't up to that particular challenge, nor are DVMs in this country routinely trained in how to perform anything other than full spays and neuters.

So while I totally agree with the need to sterilize shelter pets, I don't necessarily agree with the method of sterilization being used.

Thanks - interesting results especially about the thunder phobias and such. 

Still stuck between a rock and a hrd place with my springer girl regards spaying so I read as much as I can.  She is 3 now and has 3 regular seasons a year since 9 months old, followed by a phantom each time!  The mess I can live with, I don't confine her when she is in season as it would drive her actually nuts but then pyo is a constant concern...  Ugh decisions decisions!

I have never been an advocate for early spaying and neutering - I've always preferred to know that the dogs - males and females - have reached full maturity before neutering.   I've always felt that it leads to problems.

I know that I've skim-read the article - but were there any findings on problems in later neutering/spaying?     I've spayed bitches at 5-6 years of age, to avoid problems with pyometra - males I've left intact unless there has been a specific reason to neuter.

I have never neutered unless there was a medical reason or retiring a girl from breeding which would be about 6 years old. Defo do not believe in early (under 18months old) spay as it can cause lots of problems with immature dogs and bitches IMO.

I have never neutered and having kept 6+ bitches at a time for 30 years, have had one pyometra, and that was a bitch of 7 months and directly after her first season.
I've also only had one bitch with a mammary tumour which I chose not to operate.  She died 7 years later at the age of almost 15 of old age.  :)

I recently enquired at my vets if they could and would do a vasectomy on my boy if I felt the need for it.

I had to answer a list of questions as to why when a full neuter was the more common thing to have done along with all of the benefits etc etc.

When I explained my reasons and that I would be making enquiries at other practices too I was told that yes it could be done but it is a lot more expensive as it is not normal practice and that doing the vasectomy would negate all of the benefits that a full neuter gives, no mention of the benefits for my boy if he keeps his 'nuts'.

I get the distinct impression that vets are trained in the routine of full neuter/spay and anything else sends shivers up their spines and they don't like customers disagreeing with their opinions.

For the record I've had a Goldie that was spayed after her first season, she died of a mast cell tumour, a collie spayed after her first season and she ruptured a cruciate ligament, a Sheltie spayed after her first season and her coat is hell to deal with.

My current 6 dogs are all intact and I'll do my damndest to make sure they stay that way.

> I was told that yes it could be done but it is a lot more expensive as it is not normal practice

I dont understand why that would make the procedure more expensive? especially as on the face of it vasectomy would seem to be a simpler procedure

I too only skin-read this information.   However, from experience with my hounds (since 1972) I will still favour spaying on retirement, if only to avoid the need to confine twice (8 months usually in the case of mine) a year.   I had one that developed mammary cancer when she was 12 - she'd been spayed at 6.   Of course there's always the 'could it have happened in any case'.    I prefer not to spay as a baby - regardless of what's said, it's still invasive surgery and to do that with a puppy of under 5 months doesn't sit right with me.    With my Bassets, apart from one who by aged 2 it was clear she wasn't really good enough to show, never mind take a litter from, plus she started cycling at 5 monthly intervals so she was spayed earlier, all were done later on - and we did only have the one with a female cancer.

With my males I had NONE with a male-related cancer and with the exception of a couple who were castrated, with prostate problems, not cancer again, in later life.    With those exceptions they were all entire to the day they died.

My vet didn't want to spay my Whippet at 6 months when I took her in to be done, citing the potential for bone problems, and also spay incontinence.   I waited for her first season which by 11 months, showed no sign of starting so I asked him to go ahead.   He did, and at 5.5 years now, she's absolutely fine.

Studies are always interesting, but just as with research on human matters, there are often as many pros, as cons put forward - so I'd not ignore, but in this case, stick to what's tried and tested, with mine.

I gather it's because vets are not taught tubal ligation as a matter of course when in training

Hi all i am seeking your advice (again)!

I was at the vets this morning for monthly puppy check and once again the main issue for the vet was when can they book her in for a spay as i haven't confirmed a date. (Although they are looking at 6 months of age to do it) She is 17 weeks. I have been 4 times and seen a different vet each time but today's vet was more for the scare tactics than most. She went on at great length to tell me the risk i am putting her in if i don't have it done. I have already told them repeatedly i am happy to do the op as i do not intend to breed or show, but wanted time to research when is best for HER.

I wish i had printed this out and brought it with me as it contradicts everything she said. Does anyone have any recommendations on a small breed as this study was on vizslas she is a shih tzu so i wonder if there would be any significant differing results / risks.

What should i do? I just want to do what's best for her.

I am going to email to the breed club and my breeder but would appreciate your advice.

Many thanks as always

Tish

The risk of something happening if you spay her at say 18 months of age is minute. Small dogs do grow and mature quicker and so personally I have always seen it as acceptable to spay them earlier than larger ones -but by that I don't mean 6 months. If she was mine I'd wait until 18 months or thereabouts -and if your vets continue to try to bully you, find another practice that will listen to you. Out of interest, what are they saying she will be at risk from?

>today's vet was more for the scare tactics than most.

I think it is appalling that vets push people so hard to make them get their dogs neutered and at such a young age. These days the risk of unwanted litters is much less because we no longer have the free range dogs of the past and people are generally more savvy.  There is mounting evidence that later spaying is better for the bitch and dogs are better left entire, At least until both sexes are completely through adolescence.

Bullying people into spaying and neutering their pets almost amounts to extracting money with menaces an I would say almost cruelty to the animal. Vets no longer dock which was a relatively minor procedure from which dogs generally recovered well as they say it is cruel, but they will subject an immature animal to anesthetic and a major operation without a qualm. It is totally wrong!

I'm no good at links, but interesting read on the subject ( took it to my vet) which explains the downside of neutering both males and females:  www.naiaonline.org

Thank you all for your valued advice.

Marianne she was saying mammary cancer (sorry if the terminology is wrong). I explained that i really don't have an issue doing the procedure but want to look at the best age for her.

New York

I wasn't going to mention money but funnily enough when i said i had a couple of other things i wanted to discuss- feeding, teeth cleaning and eye care she refused to discuss these saying do you want a consultation if you need a consultation we will have to charge you as she is only here for a weight check and advocate dispense. I didn't even realise that I wasn't being charged as every month it has been a minimum 50.00. (Last month 150.00) i agreed as i don't have a problem paying for their expertise and time.

When i expressed an interest on feeding raw as i feel it is unhealthy the way she inhales her kibble but takes her time with raw bits i have tried her on. She also said i want her on a complete commercial food. Which in her defence i understand as it is supposed to meet all their requirements. I personally wanted some advice on feeding a flat faced breed bones as I have read that can be problematic due to the propensity for an elongated soft palate.

I am considering returning to my previous vet - he is over an hour away now i have moved but i think he is worth it.

Boo 16

Thank you for the article i will read with interest.

In closing what would be my argument to leave her until later or should i just stand my ground and say no. I thought it could have an effect on their temperament / behaviour but she refuted this.

Tish x

Ultimately she is your dog & if you wish, for whatever reason, to wait to spay then the vet really should not question it!!
Your dog is only 17 weeks old & still very much a baby, the vets should really get to grips with this spaying/castration malarky & do what is best for the dog & not their pockets!!!

I find it unbelievable that the Vet has the nerve to say that you are only there for a monthly puppy check ie, have her weighed and pick up some advocate when you wish to discuss:feeding, teeth care etc she wants to charge you a consultation fee!!!!!! Is this not part of a puppy check?

So why is it ok for the Vet to discuss (without a consultation fee) a possible major operation when you are only there for a 'puppy check'. Is it perhaps that it is to the Vet's financial advantage?

Neither should you have to be told what you will feed your puppy, if you have decided to feed her raw. That is your decision, not the Vet's.

I've only ever seen mammary tumours in two of my own bitches -both were spayed when EIGHT years old so I really don't think you need to worry there about waiting a little.

Having a vet you feel you can trust and also very importantly that you feel will LISTEN to you is vital (after all, you may be seeing them for many years to come, even if it is just once a year routinely), so if I was you I'd investigate other local vets with a view to changing. A few years ago my vet of 17 years died and I had to find a new one. I tried a few out. Made routine appointments just to check them out, almost like a job interview! One I stayed with for about 18 months and it turned out to be a huge mistake -very unpleasant staff. So I changed again and then I found my current vets and they are all great. I have been with them for just over 3 years now. I have never been pushed (or even suggested) about neutering and whenever I mention feeding raw (to both dogs and cats) they have nothing but praise for it.

I have to add to this discussion that the vets never mention the increased incidence of spay related incontinence, we were pressured - I feel - into getting two of our giant breed girls spayed, the potential health risk of not having them spayed were rammed down our throats before we agreed and both of them developed spay related incontinence with 12 months. When we took them back to the vets thinking they had both picked up a UTI they then nodded sagely and gave the diagnosis as though we had been fully informed of the risk! The solution is a lifetime on meds that have known detrimental effects on the dogs health, or a miserable dog that leaks constantly. Apparently in my breed in particular the incidence can run as high a 50% and it is not recommended by a lot of the breed advisors.

My girl had a mammary tumour at 8 and the vet was still happy to leave her entire as it was a single lump and not affecting the whole strip or anything, which I was very pleased with. Of course her health comes first, but I am reluctant to spay until I need to. In your case I would remember the main points of spaying later, and just say you have decided you will spay her at 18 months, and if they keep trying to argue, just say you have decided and you don't need to keep reopening the discussion.

>once again the main issue for the vet was when can they book her in for a spay as i haven't confirmed a date. (Although they are looking at 6 months of age to do it)

My 12 year old bitch recently had a mammary tumour removed. The first thing the vet asked me was when she was spayed. I stated that had been done just before she was two and after her first season but just before her second. He said "shame, if you had had her done at 6 months she would have been ok"! I challenged him about this and pointed out that 12 years ago, the veterinary advice had been to do it before 2 years of age! He confirmed that that 6 months is the advice now. That may be the 'new advice', but it isn't something I would even consider.

>I was at the vets this morning for monthly puppy check

My elderly mum has a young dog and in conversation with her, she said she was off to the vets for his monthly check! I asked her what she meant and she told me Oliver has to see a vet monthly to see how he is growing and if he needs treatment for anything (ears, fleas, worms, skin,weight etc)! She was struggling to get him to the vets every month but because the vet had said,she thought she MUST do it. I told her that was ludicrous and to knock that on the head as soon as she like.  She said she told the vet that she would not be coming monthly anymore and that she would bring the dog for his yearly boosters or if he was ill. The vet was not happy, but mum said their attitude changed towards her once she stood her ground.

Marketing!

It's all revenue spinning and gullible owners fall for it.

My wonderful vet resigned from a big 'go getting' practice for this very reason, always driving the revenue stream with products and constant ' maintenance' visits. The neutering thing is almost a given in such vet chains.

As she put it...they are taking our vet status from professionals to being 'in trade'.

After a nights sleep i have decided i am going back to my previous vet. I feel you have all given me sound advice and thank you all again.  With his small practice the pet stays with the same vet throughout, unless there is absence etc. even then they would let you know "i am away next week ".  I think this lets you and the dog build a relationship with them.   When i lost my last dog they were so wonderful and even now i am still in contact with them. He gave a reference to the breeder.  They were genuinely thrilled when I said i was looking for a new puppy but never once pressured me to taking her there.

Whilst money is not an issue for me my old vet raised this with me only once when the cost of her meds was 150.00 a month. Other than that he left it to the practice manager. He was more concerned with getting the dog well. You often find him in the waiting room with a load of dogs greeting him enthusiastically.

I think you are correct about the chain as they gave me a fridge magnet with Mayhew on it. I went there as they did puppy socialisation but didn't go back after the first as it was a free for all and my trainer at class said to be mindful it can create behaviour you don't particularly want.

I am still not sure what age i will get her done but have a bit of time to continue reading up on it. Surely they must realise it is more convenient for the owner to not have to deal with seasons (especially a newbie like me). But what I want is not to damage her physically or otherwise. The incontinence issue i had read about but didn't realise it meant medication for life!

My trainer spoke to me about the raw and recommended a brand called Honey's. I am going to do a bit more reading and am hoping the breed club will be able to advise. I would rather prep it myself but it is the bone i am unsure of. I am friendly with a dog walker who specialises in bracchycephalics so she can probably help too.

Touché! Then again it wasn't a consultation it was a lecture  (i nearly went and sat on the naughty step at one point)

>if you had had her done at 6 months she would have been ok

That has been found not to be proven, and the study that suggested it was too small etc.

Some bitches and families are inclined to get mammary tumours and some not.

Half of them are benign anyway.

Of 10 bitches owned now that are over 2 years of age, and older ones spayed between 5 and 7 years I have experienced one bitch with a single pea size lump.  Having spoken to people in my breed my experience is consistent with theirs very few entire bitches with mammary tumours.

A friend in Welsh Springers expected all her older bitches to need mammary strips.

the main plus point health wise for spaying is the protection from Pyometra which mainly affects middle age to old bitches.

I suggest this study of the pros and cons is printed off and shown to vets who perist on pushing.

http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf

Fact is neutering is a 'nice little earner' for most vets.   Call that the cynic in me but ...............  If I find a vet who is pushing this, I move on!   However, not all vets are like this - eg. I bought a Whippet puppy at 9 weeks.   At that time I had an elderly entire male Basset who was fighting oral cancer at the time and the last thing he needed was to be anywhere near a bitch in season (even if she'd had been at the opposite end of the bungalow!!). So as she approached 6 months, I took her in to book her spay.  Shock (mainly because this was the first one I'd ever had done that early - in our small show/breeding outfit our girls were usually spayed on retirement) - he advised me to let her have one season first, citing bone growth problems and the possibility of spay incontinence if he did it before her first season.   So I backed off, and arranged for a local boarding kennel to take her when she did come in - to get her right out of here.  I wasn't happy to have to do this, but for the sake of my old boy ..... and they were going to have her in a crate in their kitchen.

As it happened, she'd not come in by 11 months, and no sign of it either, so I took her back and asked him to go ahead.   He did, and now at 5.5 years, she's absolutely fine.

All this risk of mammary, ovarian or uterine cancers later on is relevant, and worth bearing in mind - indeed one of our Basset girls, spayed on retirement, did develop mammary cancer at the end  (12 years), something I'd not wanted for my worst enemy.  But it is just a risk and who knows whether her late spaying was involved in all this (and it was only one of all my bitches over the years, who developed this)....... my main reason for spaying was to lessen the angst with them coming in all the time, having to confine them etc., which was pointless when past breeding/showing.

I suppose vets probably should make the suggestion - but THAT'S ALL!!!   Again I have to suspect this is mainly about income for the practice.   Bottom line - it's YOUR DECISION, based on all the information there is available.

In my mind i have Goldmalis recommended 18 months as the age i am looking at. Due to her experience with smaller breeds.

I recall the vet said if i let her have more than a couple of seasons the risks increase to the point whereby the benefits are non-existent.

However having read the articles posted by Boo16, Brainless and of course the original one i looked at it is very much pros and cons - cons being growth plates, incontinence, hypothyroidism etc etc.

Anyway my Mum always said vote with your feet and that is what i will be doing - straight back to my previous vets!

I think Toolz, Mamabas and Admin have a point about the marketing/sales - I should have ignored the flashy website aren't we lovely facebook page and stuck with a vet who has neither the time nor the need to pimp himself like this.

Thanks CD i was in a right state yesterday - you gave me facts and figures plus your experience which in my book are all priceless.

Tishxxx

Glad the thread has been helpful

very useful Brainless and others. In my case ( see my other thread) I was thinking of neutering to balance out any hormone problems that may now at 3 be causing a behaviour issue as she rarely has seasons so something is odd. Now thinking spaying could make it worse not better I waa intending to wait unil she was 5 or 6 all being well medically