I really think the judge is playing this down

http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/118270

It didn't look like it was the glasses he was reacting to, did it. (And that is one thing dogs certainly can react to -hence when I have pups I make a point of putting dark sunglasses on to get them used to it. Judges so often appear with flapping ties, flapping coats, hats, beards, dark glasses etc etc, dogs going to be shown MUST get used to it.)

It was unbearably hot at NWPBS and the dog may well have been irritable to start with. There have been times when we have gone home rather than stay for the group if we knew the dog had had a long day and could possibly be feeling irritable -we have one that can act that way. (Although the most she would do would be to growl to warn she'd had enough.) The last thing you want to do is make your breed look bad in the group so we only ever stay if we are certain the dog is able to cope. The group ring is after all very different to the breed ring.

Very similar incident in my breed last year, and that dog ended up being banned from all KC licensed and unlicensed events.

He was at the side of the dog who reacted when he was behind him to start with..

So glad you commented on the heat Marrianne, because I was going to ask about it.

My first instinct was that the dog was over heating, looking at the way he was panting and the whole look of him :-(

Also, why was the handler 'roughing' the dog around the face whilst the judge was going over him?  To distract the dog?  Was he expecting something like this?

To me, calm hands mean a calm dog, and those hands were anything but calmi :-(

Didn't look to me as if the dog was reacting to the sunglasses, the first attempt was to his handler or the judge's hand on that side.

There are comments on EC&V about possibly the dog has painful elbows? Who knows but it's been reported to the KC and whatever the reason no dog should just react like that.. Wonder how is was in the breed judging and if I'm right it's still a breed which requires a vet check before the group?

Apologies it's in the dog world Facebook oage

I've known the judge for almost 30 years and he's a lovely kind and gentle man who adores all dogs - a dog man through and through! 
I'm not surprised that he's taking the blame but in this instance, I'm not sure that I agree with him.  :(

I was in the group ring with them. I was watching the judging and have to say the dog looked like he meant the bite. Judge was very shocked and judging was stopped for over 20 mins.
Such a terrible shame for judge, owner and dog.
It was hot but most dogs were coping without a problem.
A dog of group quality really should be 150 % sound

My first thoughts to, the handler was very much trying to keep the dog focused on him as though he had had problems in the past.

I don't think it matters if the weather was hot or the judge had reflective glasses, there is no excuse to snap at a human. It looked to me like the hadnler was expectign the dog to react, trying to distract it. Every dog at a dog show should have a sound temperament, but especially the big breeds.

Shame as I thought he was quite a moderate example of his breed, but temperament ahs to come first, I hope this dog is not only banned for life but is never bred from either.

I don't think it matters if the weather was hot or the judge had reflective glasses, there is no excuse to snap at a human. It looked to me like the handler was expecting the dog to react, trying to distract it. Every dog at a dog show should have a sound temperament, but especially the big breeds.

Shame as I thought he was quite a moderate example of his breed, but temperament has to come first, I hope this dog is not only banned for life but is never bred from either.

Unable to view as video now been removed....

>I don't think it matters if the weather was hot or the judge had reflective glasses, there is no excuse to snap at a human.

?? for goodness sake they are dogs not machines. The only dog that can be guaranteed not to snap is a dead one. People snap at each other when they get pushed too far so why do you think that dogs should be more capable of containing their frustrations than an adult human?

Has there never been a day when you have had a hard time at work you have a headache and are hot and tired and then hubby or a child makes some thoughtless comment and you respond with a harsh comment. Its the same for dogs.

The owner and the judge were at fault here not the dog. The owner knew the dog was hot and tired and did not want to be in the ring but made it stay and put up with the judges attentions. When the judge looked at his mouth he moved his head away but the owner made him put it back and held him very firmly  behind his ear and kept doing this when ever he thought the dog might move again. Then the judge moved to examine the dogs body. The handler holds the collar tightly and tries to distract the dog from what the judge is doing. He must therefore have an idea that the dog is not happy. The judge gets to the elbows and I think the dog was tender there. My first impression when I saw the video was that it was a pain response from the dog. Anyway the judge gets to the elbow area and the dog objects more strongly and goes towards the owner. At this point the owner should have stopped the judging and taken the dog out of the ring or the judge should have stopped the judging  but they both decided to carry on and pushed the dog to escalate his behaviour once again in order to show he was not happy.

It is not an easy decision not to take part in the group especially when the dog had passed the vet check etc. No doubt the owner had one eye on a possible group win and probably had friends wanting him to go into the group and show what a good dog he is so making a decision to withdraw would not be easy. And once in the group ring it becomes harder again to admit you have made a mistake and take the dog out and so everyone stays there. The judge may well have felt that the dog was not happy but could not refuse to judge the dog without good reason. If he had asked for the dog to be  taken out of the ring before the point at which the dog snapped then I am sure there would have been an outcry.

The whole show scene is very hard for dogs to cope with even if very well trained and socialised. It is really surprising that there are not more incidents like this.  What needs to happen is for people to become more realistic about their dogs abilities to cope and to not be afraid of standing up for them and taking the dog out of the situation when they know the dog has had enough.

>Unable to view as video now been removed....

It is still viewable. If you click on the link  it says the video can be seen on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3TPRAe4AJ8&feature=player_embedded

Smithy,

A good post and I agree with much of what you say. It is unfortunate that sometimes the human will to win, come what may, overcomes both compassion and common sense. I would disagree on one point though, my hunch is that this dog has history and that would explain the handler's slightly (to me) anxious state.

I am reminded again of the staffy BOB two years ago, where she was clearly limping but judges and owner appeared to collude and carry on regardless. I can remember another terrier breed group winner who was shown in the group with the handler's hand firmly clamped over the dog's muzzle- especially as the judge moved towards the dog's rear. I also know of beautiful looking dogs with poor to iffy temperaments who are shown because the owners know that in collusion with the right judge they have a chance of winning-one particular big winner (multiple Crufts wins) is shown strung up and on the benches people have been warned not to touch him in case he bites. I'm afraid the show world is very flawed indeed. So long as humans chase cups and rosettes it will not change.

>I would disagree on one point though, my hunch is that this dog has history and that would explain the handler's slightly (to me) anxious state.

I dont disagree with you. I was trying to point out that circumstances can conspire together to make almost any dog snap.

The dog may have reacted before but obviously not every time he has been judged. After all he got through the breed judging and the vet check that day without reacting or biting anyone. Going into the group was too much for him. He  is obviously not an out and out aggressive dog as he would never have got as far as he did. The fact that the owner obviously knew there was a possibility that he could act that way and not withdraw from the judging is the worst part of it.

Due to the breeding for different tasks over the years  different breeds will react differently when put under too much stress. for instance a gundog breed is much more likely to back off or play the fool when stressed rather than be aggressive. The guarding breeds have been bred to react with aggression. A guarding breed would be no good if it ran away when it felt threatened.  A few years of breeding for looks and temperaments is not sufficient to undo centuries of breeding for aggression. Owners of dogs who are likely to react aggressively when stressed need to be very sensitive to how their dog is coping with a situation and remove them from it if needed. Unfortunately the desire to win obviously overrode common sense this time :(

Owners of dogs who are likely to react aggressively when stressed need to be very sensitive to how their dog is coping with a situation and remove them from it if needed. Unfortunately the desire to win obviously overrode common sense this time

Absolutely, it is evident to us all that the owner was compensating with the head stroking for appeasement, stands out a mile, the dog no doubt was previously showing signs to the owner that he was not happy at that time, heat and tiredness obviously being the main reasons. He'd had enough............. the owner should have factored that in.

IMO - The judge is a credit, not for one minute do I blame the glasses the dog was not even in sight of them, but I dare say the judge too understands why the dog may have snapped for that second and is doing his best to limit the damage.

But......... on the flip-side......... and unfortunately there is that flip-side........ who'd want to be a judge going over that dog in the future, the red flag is up and you can't blame any future judges from being a bit nervous here, understanding the behaviour is one thing, blaming the owner for not pulling out when a dog may have been agitated is another, but human safety is a priority, not sure what I would do here?

But......... on the flip-side......... and unfortunately there is that flip-side........ who'd want to be a judge going over that dog in the future, the red flag is up and you can't blame any future judges from being a bit nervous here, understanding the behaviour is one thing, blaming the owner for not pulling out when a dog may have been agitated is another, but human safety is a priority, not sure what I would do here?

The article said the dog HAS been reported to the KC via the show secretary. That has to be done, it is the judge's duty. That means the owner will get a letter from the KC telling them there is a temporary ban on the dog, until the matter has been investigated (which will take months). So they cannot show it. I would then think it highly unlikely the dog does not get banned as there is video evidence and St Johns ambulance was involved.

How do I know this? Because last year the KC accidentally sent me a letter temporarily banning one of my dogs. There had been a similar incident at a show and they sent the letter to the wrong owner! (My dog was not even in the same class.) Thankfully got THAT sorted very quickly including a written apology. But because of that I have seen first hand such a letter.

>But......... on the flip-side......... and unfortunately there is that flip-side........ who'd want to be a judge going over that dog in the future

Although I can understand why the dog snapped and do not "blame" the dog I do not think it should be shown again. The dog was uncomfortable, tried a couple of times to get the judge to stop each time just going a little further until he found at which level of aggression would work to stop the judging. Having snapped at the judge he immediately got the functional reward of the judge going away he was taken out of the ring. Next time he may well not bother with the lower level warnings but might go straight for the snap as that worked so well this time.

As to whether he should be bred from I dont know enough about him or the breed to know whether this is  typical behaviour for the breed. But showdogs really need to have an atypical temperament to enable them to succeed in the ring.

Typical of the KC to send the letter to the wrong owner. :-D Bet your mouth fell open when you got that!

But, yes........... what can you do?  When you look at it from a human safety side alone, there isn't much else that can be done but a ban really I guess, if so, it is a great shame, the owner no doubt will be left kicking themselves forever more, looked to be a very nice dog...... physically, but alas, showing deems a great more expectations from a dog, rightly or wrongly it has always been, it would be very unfair on other dogs who also put up with the temperature and waiting and don't react to make exceptions........ we expect solid temperaments in a show ring, (although we all understand a dog is a dog, just as the judge did) a dogs life in the show ring, really does come down to the handler understanding and caring about the dog they are with and not pushing too far.

I do wonder also if the Vet exam may have made things worse, and over sensitised the dog to being gone over, just before group on a hot day.

The dog is only 16 months, so at a sensitive age too.

We often have eye testing at shows, and I always try to get this done well before or after judging, just in case it put them off being handled in the ring.  Though generally I have the opposite problem of fidgeting dogs trying to snog/French kiss the judge..

I was in the ch stakes recently and told by the owner of a big group winner not to get close to her dog because he will bite my dog, I mean seriously if you can not even stand in a ring without worrying your dog will bite there is no hope. After watching the video I wonder why he did not withdraw after the first snap, I don't think the dog wanted y savage him though he just seemed very unhappy.

> for goodness sake they are dogs not machines. The only dog that can be guaranteed not to snap is a dead one.

Sure dogs can snap, they have mouths. I'm saying that they shouldn't. I've shown dogs, quite a few, for 26 years and never had one even look like it might snap at the judge, even after travelling 3 days to get to a show, when it's hot, the dog it tired. I have occasionally had a dog squeal, twice I think, and once the judges watch came off his wrist with a lump of my borzois coat, still no snapping.

In my opinion show dogs should have 1st class temperaments, if they don't a busy show environment is no place for them.

I'm not just spouting some ideal, I have myself had a young dog neutered, despite a very promising start to his show career (a rcc as a youngster) because he was becoming aggressive with other dogs. In my opinion also only dogs with 1st class temperaments should be bred from.

Breed type and original purpose of the breed of course always has to be considered, but also we should consider whether that dog has a place in today's society. I've no doubt that my dog aggressive borzoi had what would have been described as a perfect temperament in the Czars day, he was certainly brave and bold enough to hold a wolf, but that temperament does not fit in with todays society so he was neutered.

The neopolitan snapped twice at the judge, drew blood from his face. Yes it could have been far worse, but in my opinion it was bad enough. I don't think that dog should be shown or bred from.

Sure dogs can snap, they have mouths. I'm saying that they shouldn't. I've shown dogs, quite a few, for 26 years and never had one even look like it might snap at the judge, even after travelling 3 days to get to a show, when it's hot, the dog it tired. I have occasionally had a dog squeal, twice I think, and once the judges watch came off his wrist with a lump of my borzois coat, still no snapping.

But you've never shown reactive breeds, have you? There is a huge difference. (I wouldn't think this dog was of such a breed though.) But also, any dog that has in the past been told off for growling or had warnings ignored -well what else can it do.

It is easy to sit on the sidelines and discuss what we may do in this situation, cause, reasons etc.. the bottom line in this case realistically is that once the dog jumped/snapped/growled on the first occasion the handler should have heeded the warning and immediately left the ring. If it was a totally out of character event due to pain/heat/illness it may well have allowed the dog to recover to be shown again. If indeed it was down to poor temperament then the situation could have been assessed. As it is now the dog has been branded a biter and its show career is over.
It just underlines the need to listed to your dog and heed any warnings, remove them from the problem and asses in the cold light of day. One group placing may have been lost but in the wider picture it would have been the best thing to do.
Its a tragedy for all concerned. The dog will now never get the chance to clear his name.
Aileen

Fully agree Aileen.