I just took our 15wk old pup to the vet because she's had runny stools since last Thursday.  I fasted her, I fed her chicken and rice and I gave her a 3 day course of Panacur - and none of that worked, so the vets it was...  She has also been generally itchy since we got her - not any one area, just generally scratching herself and biting at herself.  So I wanted to mention that to the vet too.

We have recently moved to a new area, so this was the first time we've used this vets for anything other than her routine puppy vax.  With our previous dogs/vets, when they have had runny stools, we've been given a course of oral ABs - amoxicillin with clavulanic acid(?).  If that didn't work, then it was a stool sample. 

This vet I went to see is mostly a farm vet.  He said the itchiness is probably an allergy (she has been treated with Advocate to cover fleas and mites).  He then just grabbed this syringe and started drawing it and saying 'for the runny stools, we give an injection of a long-lasting antibiotic'. 

I'm not a big fan of injections at vets unless necessary, they are often painful and contribute to dogs hating the vets a lot.  So I wasn't really in favour of this jab to start with.  I asked him what it was and he said it was amoxicillin, and would work against campylobacter and be a 'long-lasting' AB.  I didn't want to look like an A-hole, make him hate me, and ask him for oral tablets now he'd already filled a syringe of this stuff, and if it was just a jab of the same thing the tablets would be, then maybe that would be what it had to be.  I held a tasty kong for the pup to lick, but she still yelped and leapt around - it was horrible.  :(

Afterwards, I looked at the invoice and saw she'd had 'amoxypen LA injection' and 'dexadreson injection'!! 

Googling, I found that firstly amoxypen is just amoxicillin - without the clavulanic acid, and it is not recommended for campylobacter like that (without the clavulanic acid) because campylobacter has become resistant to it.  Secondly, that 'dexadreson' is a steroid!!  A short-lived steroid, but still... I did ask him what was in the jab, and he did NOT mention a steroid, because I'd definitely have spoken up and said I didn't want my pup to have that.  What's the point?  It's just treating the symptom.  As soon as it wears off, any itchiness is going to come back.  And steroids are not good things to be giving 15wk puppies.

Right, or would you disagree??  Is giving jabs for runny puppy stools a perfectly acceptable alternative to a course of oral ABs??  I've never heard of it.

So I'm feeling a bit disappointed with myself (for not speaking out at the first sign of something I didn't like), and I feel bad, I feel like I should have protected my pup - she's only got me to speak out for her - and I'm angry with this vet - who was recommended to me.  Shouldn't we be giving informed consent for any treatment, and how can we do that if we're not informed of what is being given (even when we ask?!)??

I really try to do as much as I can myself, before going to the vets and don't just run there at the drop of a hat like many people, because I've just come not to trust any vet.  I'm sure there are good practices out there, I've seen their websites and policies online - but there are none near me....

I couldn't very well have said 'can you just wait a minute, whilst I google what you're about to give her and decide if I want you to??' - which is what I wanted to do!!!! 

Rant over.  Feel like I've let my poor puppy down and wish I could turn back the clock.  I hope there is no damage done.

sorry, I can't comment on the treatment given as I don't know, but maybe you should start looking around for another vet as you won't trust this one in the future will you? I did go to a mainly farm vet a few years ago and wasn't happy as they didn't seem very pet savvy. Ask anybody and everybody that you meet with pets who they use then think about changing. Hope your little one is better soon.

Right, or would you disagree??  Is giving jabs for runny puppy stools a perfectly acceptable alternative to a course of oral ABs??  I've never heard of it.

Personally wouldn't have a problem with it, it will be faster acting and tbh as pups go down fast and if your pup has had the runs since Thursday, the faster the better IMO, as for the steroid, ummm... agree you should have been told, but the vet I guess wanted to sort out the itching fast too it is one of the milder steroids and one shot wont hurt your pup, :-) the worst will be her thirst or appetite will increase for a day or two and possibly a little sore where the injection was done, (or not hopefully)

For me, I trust a farm vet above all others, they can't make mistakes as it costs lives, so they make practical decisions based on their knowledge, none of this lets explore & cost you a fortune instead you will get a treatment which will cover all eventualities, looks as though this has been done here, there won't be any harm done rabid, pup I'm sure will be fine and all will be forgotten by the time she goes back for her booster.

The runs can be caused by many things...... hope that the antibiotics will sort it out, congrats on your new pup.

That does make me feel a bit better, Carrington, but I still don't think I can trust this vet again.

I did ask around a lot, and he was the one which 2 doggie people in the area recommended - not because he was great, but because he was better than all the newly-graduated, fresh-faced young vets which make up a great proportion of the rest of the practice, and as a farm vet, was said to be very practical and didn't just follow a tick-list of what to do. 

Maybe I should have learnt from our previous vet practice, that the vet which works best for me, is one which lets me question everything they do without getting affronted and is willing to do things my way even if they disagree.  (Ie on neutering and annual vaccinations v titre testing.)  So maybe rather than looking for an amazing vet, I should just find one with the right interpersonal skills...!

(she has been treated with Advocate to cover fleas and mites)

Did the pup actually have confirmed fleas or mites?

NOAH Compendium - Advocate

"The use of the product may result in transient pruritus in the animal. On rare occasions greasy fur, erythema and vomiting can occur. These signs disappear without further treatment. The product may, in rare cases cause local hypersensitivity reactions. The product may in very rare cases cause at the application site a sensation resulting in transient behavioural changes such as lethargy, agitation, and inappetence."

Friends of mine used this on their dogs, and the dogs lost all coat around the site of the application, along their backs, and down their sides, and the skin looked burned, it was also very sensitive to touch etc.  Took around 8 months of medication before signs of regrowth were seen :-(

If this drug combination can cause vomiting, I see no reason why it couldn't also cause diarrhoea ?

You also dosed with Panacur for 3 days?
Advocate Spot on - Uses

Advocate covers intestinal worms, so I would question whether there was any need to give Panacur as well?

What advice were you given regarding giving Panacur as well as Advocate?

Personally, my first reaction to runny bums in pups and adults, after the initial starving (resting the digestive system) is to add a spoonful of Bio Yoghurt to their food.  I find it sorts out most runny bums without need for antibiotics etc ;-)

However, I too prefer an experienced farm type vet rather than the small animal vets.  They do seem to have more diagnostic skills without recourse to the "lets try every expensive test known to man" approach.

Regarding finding a vet who is willing to discuss with you, I find it takes a couple of conversations with a new vet, and asking some knowledgeable questions, before they realise I may have something to contribute to the treatment options ;-)

Injectible ABs get into the system very much quicker than tablets, and as your pup has been unwell for several days it was important to get something into her quickly. The dexadreson is also a sensible option because again it gives her system a bit of a respite from the continual itch/scratch cycle and can sometimes be enough to break any habit element of it. I'd try not to worry if I were you - it seems like a very sensible course of treatment.

I'd also prefer an AB by injection in this instance and your pup had already been injected for vaccs presumably.

In answer to your question about the actions of a vet...
Punters like to see their monies worth and a good old steroid injection is the big " go to" plan A for many things.
Paying a big bill and then nothing seems to improve, clients are more likely to be disgruntled.
The relatively long acting nature of both drugs will either sort it out or will at the very least give a good initial impression of diagnosis and treatment.

> Punters like to see their monies worth and a good old steroid injection is the big " go to" plan A for many things.

I am loving my vets even more after this weekend, when my oldie was unwell  They seem to be the old school of not trying anything unnecessary - several times now I've walked out of there just paying for consultation, with nothing suggested or used. They also have their own emergency OOH service. Not as flash as the bigger hospital 3 miles away, but I know who I'd call first.

Injectible ABs get into the system very much quicker than tablets, and as your pup has been unwell for several days it was important to get something into her quickly. The dexadreson is also a sensible option because again it gives her system a bit of a respite from the continual itch/scratch cycle and can sometimes be enough to break any habit element of it. I'd try not to worry if I were you - it seems like a very sensible course of treatment.

My long-term trusted vet ALWAYS gave an injection followed by a course of ABs.   The injection gets things going fast.   So I'd have no problem with this treatment either much as I can't comment on what was used for what condition.    The 'steroid' would surely be the antiinflammatory which would appear to be indicated too.   So again, no problem for me there.   Farm vets - hum.   We had to use one in a small town we moved to in Canada.   They did a needed C.Section for me and although some aspects of the treatment (putting all 9 puppies onto mum in a cage, usupervised, when she was still groggy from the g/a isn't something I'd have risked doing much as it meant the puppies took the first milk) I had no complaint with them.   On the other hand, I've had some really poor vets down here in the West (UK) since we came back to the country!!

I hope you get your puppy sorted out. 

I would probably be ok with the treatment but not the lack of dialogue. One of the things I love about my vet is the time he spends talking things through with me. I don't think by the sound of this post I'd have felt included in the decisions made? Even if it were to be the outcome anyway.

Hope your pup improves now, how frustrating for you both.

>My long-term trusted vet ALWAYS gave an injection followed by a course of ABs.

But the problem is there was no course of ABS to follow the injection.  No injection (no matter how 'long lasting') is going to last a week or more, like oral ABs are.  What has happened is exactly what I thought would happen - she immediately improved and all was fine for 2 days, and now we're back where we were with the same runny poo problem - because the AB has worn off.  And of course, this is how bacteria becomes resistant to ABs...  sheesh.  She didn't have blood or mucous or vomiting, was not off her food and the occasional poo was fine.  So it wasn't a desperate case of 'let's get some ABs into this pup immediately'.

Dill - of course both the Advocate and Panacur were given in response to the symptoms, so they can't have caused them.  I don't treat preventatively for anything apart from intestinal worms.  The Advocate was given for the itching and the Panacur was given because it is effective against giardia - for the runny poo.  So they weren't addressing the same problem - the fact that they both address roundworm is neither here nor there.  The vet was glad I had tried both these things before seeing him as it ruled a lot out.

>No injection (no matter how 'long lasting') is going to last a week or more, like oral ABs are.

There are AB injections that last for 2 weeks; it's most often given to cats because they are notoriously difficult to tablet, but it can be given to dogs as well.

I agree with JG that they treatment given to your pup sound absolutely fine.

I never have AB tablets anymore and always opt for injections.

The advocate is the likely cause of the itching as a friend has had the exact same reaction after a dose and after a couple of doses of piriton and some Aloe Vera gel the sore patch that was the most irritating soon calmed down .

I also keep a tube of this in my dog medicine box to treat squitty bottoms

http://www.petdrugsonline.co.uk/p-1672-canikur-pro-paste.aspx?VariantID=1760&gclid=CLrayImXur8CFerjwgodcEgAZQ