Pups are now 17 days old.

One of the pups still has an eye that is closed, showing no signs at all of opening, but no signs of infection or soreness . The other eye has been open for three days now. All of the littermates eyes are open and have been since day 12.

She is the smallest of the litter, and was the last born.

At what point should I start to consider this is more than just an eye being late opening? I have spoken to my vet who said he would not be concerned until pup is at least 24 days old??? so please help by sharing your experiences and knowledge. I will continue to worry myself silly, but at least I will have a realistic benchmark.

So my questions are:
What is the latest you have had an eye open?
Have you ever had a large gap between the first and second eye opening?
When should I be genuinely concerned that there may be something that requires further investigation?
Have you ever had a pup fail to open an eye and what happened?

Many thanks

I would be worried too.
Late opening often spells trouble.
Not sure what you can do if your vet says wait but in my experience it can be abnormal.

I'd be slightly concerned, but if you mated your bitch over some days, this puppy may just have been conceived from one of the later matings, and not quite as forward as the rest.    I'd get it checked by my vet.

As I remember, and it's been a few years now, mostly mine opened at roughly the same time.   I did have one however, who on opening had one eye that was cloudy.  Panic!    Off to the vet - drops but it blew into a horrible mess and in the end, that eye had to be removed at which point an abscess at the back of the eye was found.  How/why neither me nor our then vet knew.   But the bonus was she didn't miss that eye because fact is she never had the use of it from the get-go.   Occasionally early days she mis-judged distance but otherwise she was fine throughout her life - we kept her because I couldn't bring myself to part with that one.   She lived out her days as a pet.   Strangely, apart from the early individual contact I had with her, not showing her, nor breeding her meant she was just 'there'.  And her going was uneventful too really - just old age.   Even more strange however was the fact that nobody used her space, right in front of the fire, for the longest time.   It was as if her spirit was still there and the others knew.  It's been years ago now, out in Canada, but RIP little Harmony.

Toolz,

thank you for your resonse.

could you please share your experiences with me as they may help when I challenge my vet. What abnormalities did you personally find with a late opening?

Thank you MamaBas,

She is very little and it is possible just a little later than the others, and strangely if both eyes were tightly closed I probably would not be so worried or concerned. I am not worried for myself, as she is simply stunning, and if there is a problem she will share her life as part of our family; but her new potential family is amazing and it will be awful for them if there is an issue which renders her unsuitable for their home.

So sorry to hear your story, but thank you for sharing it with me. I'm just not sure where to go from here. I have endless patience... until I really need it.

I suspect the next few days will be especially long...

>if you mated your bitch over some days, this puppy may just have been conceived from one of the later matings,

Canine pregnancy doesn't work like that.  the ova are released over about 24 hours and after they ripen are viable for fertilisation for only around 48 hours so there cannot be large differences in gestational age.

Differences in size of whelps and their development in utero is down to how efficient the placenta is for that puppy.

AS the bitch ages and ahs numerous season the lining of the uterus becomes more uneven and not as good a place for nourishing the foetus, so position in the womb can make a difference to how well an individual pup is nourished.

It's one reason that generally there are smaller litters and more still births/less viable pups in older bitches.

Canine pregnancy doesn't work like that.  the ova are released over about 24 hours and after they ripen are viable for fertilisation for only around 48 hours so there cannot be large differences in gestational age.

Sorry but you are WRONG.   Canine pregnancy does work like this, especially if the matings took place over an extended period of time.   

Agree with Brainless, the eggs are only viable for a short time. There used to be a thought that the bitch ovulated twice but that has been disproved.

Sorry but I too agree with Brainless. A difference of 3 days is pretty much  maximum.

Ovulation Timing in the Dog
Angela Hughes DVM
UC DAVIS VMTH Genetics Resident

Left to their own devices, most dogs would breed at an appropriate time for conception. However, with human intervention
in the form of limited schedules and/or compromised semen (chilled, frozen, or subfertile male), or if the dogs' behavior and cycle do
not match, ovulation timing is critical to enhance conception. The female's eggs (ova) are only viable for fertilization in the uterus for
2-3 days during the entire heat cycle, which generally lasts three weeks or longer. Thus, improper timing for breeding is not an
uncommon cause for conception failure.
Aileen

Its great that we can have such lively debates on this forum, but I am worried that my initial questions are being side tracked by the conception question. I do not wish to appear rude but it would be lovely to hear information about the specific questions asked, which were:

What is the latest you have had one eye open?
Have you ever had a large gap between the first and second eye opening?
When should I be genuinely concerned that there may be something that requires further investigation?
Have you ever had a pup fail to open an eye and what happened?

Many thanks

Never had one this late, usually by 14 days my large breed have eyes fully open.
I would be worried if one was this late.
I can see the vets point of view but would be like you worrying until something happens or you get investigations under way.
Never had one not open.
Sorry did not mean to hijack the thread !! Ooops ...
Aileen

Two cases of late opening ...both resulted in a pus filled eye socket..both having to be removed.
The other example was one eye which proved to be microphthalmia.
Microphthalmia is an eye abnormality that arises before birth. In this condition, one or both eyeballs are abnormally small.

None of the above were my pups but I witnessed these occurrences personally.

It's not the late opening so much as its ONE puppy and only one eye.
Doesn't sound like late development.

Mine never open in accordance with the book of the bitch. Much later than stated there. Ranging from 15-17 days but as has been said already, the most I have had between one eye and the other opening is 48 hours and that worried me. All was fine in the end though.
Hope it turns out OK for the little one. x

Sorry both eyes open by 15 days.

>Sorry but I too agree with Brainless

Me too.

My MIL had a pup like this, don't remember the details but she took her to the vet and it had to be surgically opened, there was an infection but the eye was saved. Today she is perfectly fine except that the eye is not as wide as the other, just looks like a slight squint.

A difference of 3 days is pretty much  maximum.

Yes, but logic tells me that even if ovulation takes place at the one time, wouldn't the fact that the 'first in' starts growing before the 'last in' (if there are more matings than just the one, over a few days) affect the overall development?   If the last egg hasn't been fertilised at the same time (but days later).   With respect, I don't think the quote from Angela Hughes supports what I'm believing takes place.

Sorry if the OP feels this is derailing the question - and I hope the eye situation isn't serious.   I do agree to have one eye open and not the other would be a worry for me.

>logic tells me that even if ovulation takes place at the one time, wouldn't the fact that the 'first in' starts growing before the 'last in' (if there are more matings than just the one, over a few days) affect the overall development?

A different species entirely, but birds lay a clutch of fertilised eggs over a period of up to a fortnight, but they don't start developing until the hen stars to 'sit', and they all hatch within 24 hours, even though some were fertilised two weeks before the last. It's not impossible that animals that have litters (rather than a single young) have a similar system of suspended animation.

But I do agree that one eye still firmly shut so long after the other has opened would concern me greatly too.

">wouldn't the fact that the 'first in' starts growing before the 'last in'

No because they all reach a certain cell division before they implant into the uterus, it's more likely that if a lot of eggs were fertilised any really not advanced enough would fail to find a good spot in the uterine wall.

Many more ova are fertilised than ever go on to attach and develop into puppies.

Is the eye open yet? If it was my pup (and I have had this in kittens a LOT) I would by now gentle bathe it with lukewarm water on some cotton wool, to see if it is sticky inside the edges of the lid and will come open with the water. Sometimes you have infections behind closed eyelids and it is not always obvious. If it does NOT come open just with water, then I would go to the vet as it is not normal.

What has the vet said? Any updates on your pup?

Puppy Update:

Took the little lady to the vets yesterday as my gut told me this was more than just a late opening. After a basic examination where it was agreed there was a potential issue I was referred to a Veterinary Ophthalmologist. I was very lucky to get a late cancellation and the puppy was seen today.

My worst fears have unfortunately been confirmed,and a congenital defect has caused one eyeball not to form at all. She will obviously have no sight in this side, but on a positive note the specialist does not believe any surgery will be required. She will easily compensate through the use of her other senses and go on to have a full and happy life. Her lack of an eye will hopefully only ever be a cosmetic issue, rather than a medical one.

The ophthalmologist said sometimes things just go wrong, however carefully the selection process of both sire and dam, and even with health histories being known for several generations and co-efficiency being well below the breed average. I have questioned every process I have followed since before conception and can find no reason, change, or medication from my normal routines, so I have to accept that this is a total fluke of nature.

She is showing all the signs of being an incredible puppy in every other way, so rather than viewing this as a flaw I would rather see it as a facet of what will shape her into becoming an amazing adult. However, I have just had to have an incredibly difficult conversation with her potential family who have been on my waiting list for several months; they are as devastated as I am. They are taking a few days to consider their response to the news, and I fully understand their decision if they decide to continue their search elsewhere. ( she has been offered to them now on an adoption basis only, no fees).

I have no worries for her future as I know already that she will go on to have an amazing family that will see past the surface to the fantastic puppy within. (we are already choosing a name, just in case !!!)

Rearing puppies can be as heart breaking as it is rewarding and after days of worry, sleep depravation, exhaustion and enough tears to fill several buckets I find myself wondering if I really want to ever do this again.....

Thanks for the update but I'm sad that our fears were well founded.

Dogs are not machines, things go wrong and...in fact...it's a miracle that everything usually comes out right if you study the science of embryology.

Dog breeding is not for cissies!
We have hard knocks, hard decisions and need all our courage sometimes - but it only serves to show that we have the RIGHT intentions and our dogs best interests at heart.

Your little baby will be just fine with one eye...don't worry.

>Your little baby will be just fine with one eye...don't worry.

With one eye she will live a perfectly normal life as a pet, it would only be a disadvantage if she were required to hunt for her own food.

Oh what a shame. I'm sure she will do just fine with one eye, specially as she has never known any different, it will be perfectly normal for her. I was very lucky with my first 2 litters not to have any major problems and I'm still not sure it's really for me, there are so many things that can go wrong even when everything was done right like you did. *hugs*

>She will obviously have no sight in this side,

I am so very sorry to hear of your bad luck.  But I've owned 3 one eyed dogs.  No problems.  I know that she will be loved whatever decision is made for her forever home.

> Oh what a shame. I'm sure she will do just fine with one eye

There are one-eyed dogs competing in agility.

Sorry to hear your news :-(
Its no consolation but a one eyed horse won the hickstead derby so all is not lost x

Thank you for your thoughts and kind responses..