I need some advice and I am asking on behalf of a friend.
Lady came to use her dog at stud, she came i think in total 5 times (we kept getting slips and bitch wasn't blood tested dispite our best efforts to tell bitch owner to blood test her). Stud fee paid at time of mating.
Bitch missed,
Bitch came back on next season (10 months later) she was blood tested and we had 2 sucessfull matings.
Bitch was scanned in pup at day 40.
She subsiquently reabsorbed the puppies.

Bitch owner now demanding stud fee back or partial refund, or money off a puppy from my friend.
It was made clear at the time of mating that stud fee was paid up front and up to two matings would be given and if bitch misses then free return on next season.

In my breed we do not take a stud fee at time of mating (they are not easy to breed from) but in this breed, the breeder has always paid upfront for a studfee and almost double what she had charged this lady.

What would you do?

I'd not refund as I think u have been perfectly reasonable with the amount of matings and free return. Plus a litter was produced which proves the fertility of the male.

The stud fee is for a service which you provided not the guarantee of puppies produced, so long as the male is fit health and most importantly fertile then it's not your fault the bitch didn't take.  Some people charge a handerling fee then a price per pup born up to a certain amount...l so if you wanted to keep on good terms with them you could charge the 2 handerling fee's and refund the rest..

Me I wouldn't be so greedy. Ok a litter hasn't been produced, the lady doesn't have anything to show for this. I'd personally take out a small amount to keep as a handling fee and return the rest. I don't know what the stud fee was but if we are talking in the region of £800 then your friend Is a joke. I'm serious what exact ally has her dog done, he's mated the bitch but no puppies have produced.
Personally I'd find that rather hard to take if that was kept and no refund when I had no litter of pups. The stud owner shouldn't be looking to mLe money out of this, take a percentage for her time and effort yes that's fine but really if it's a large amount of money I'd be fuming.

A lot of the people I know would refund most of this tbh. Even if there was/is a contract most people I know would give something back if no litter on the ground. Normally contracts state that a litter has to be born and either one or more puppies have been produced. Some even go as far to say that the litter has to survive soa go weeks after birth too.
A lovely friend of mine charges a minimal handling fee and doesn't take anything else until the pups have been born with a free return if the bitch doesn't take the first time, think it's around £100.

If you're a business woman then I suppose you'd keep the stud fee.
If you're a hobbiest who wants to be fair to a fellow breeder you'd refund...or better still not take an up front stud fee from the owner of a maiden bitch.

I'd agree with suejaw, but in my breed the stud fee is the price of a puppy, so £700 or so, a lot of money fro now pups, and a lot of money to ask for a bit of the stud dog owners time, (then dog sure is happy to oblige).

Of course I would feel honour bound to pay any of the stud dog owners out of pocket expenses, say for boarding the bitch, petrol if they met me half way or collected.

So maybe a £50 handling fee, especially if it meant taking time off work.

In my breed no-one I know takes a fee before pups are born, saves hassle as after all the purpose of the mating is to get a litter.

A little different if the stud fees in the breed are small (say under £150).

Assuming the bitch owner signed a stud contract then this would have been covered? and ultimately signed therefore both parties agreeing to potential outcomes of a mating. The bitch owner was also, presumably happy with the stud fee itself?

If there was no contract, personally I would return half of the stud fee. The stud dog owner has been quite accommodating, plus the bitch was confirmed in whelp, but re-absorbed the pups, so we know the dog is fertile and there are many reasons why the bitch could have re-absorbed the litter

As a breeder myself, I understand that the process of getting a litter on the ground is often not straight forward and sometimes frustrating and upsetting, BUT as far as I am concerned this is sometimes the gamble you take IF you want to use a particular dog

If this happened to me, I would be annoyed, but I am of the belief we (as breeders) pay for the studs 'service', i.e no gaurentee of pups, just the 'deed'. and what happens after, happens. If the stud owner is being accommodating with numerous mating's or free return next time, then I think they are entitled to keep the fee paid, not that I would be returning to that stud again, but then I may also be looking at not trying to mate the bitch again either

I wouldn't expect a refund as the stud dog owner had given her dog and her time twice and the problem is obviously with the bitch. 
In my breed it is normal to pay at time of service, even to friends.  I've been fortunate but know many bitch owners who have paid stud fees to a number of different kennels and produced no puppies (maybe they've not got the timing right or a fertility problem with their bitches - who knows?) and whilst aren't happy with paying and no puppies, also wouldn't expect any to be returned.

I'm not sure I could or would ever pay a full stud fee up front unless there was a clause in a contract stating if no litter born then a percentage is returned.
In many breeds it's a lot of money to loose, most of use couldn't afford to loose that money. Like Toolz has said I'd be looking at it whether this lady sees her dogs as a business or a hobby

I think it totally depends on the amount of money paid.
If it is £300 I suppose it could be seen as payment for the effort on part of the stud owner, if it is closer to £1000 the person who owns the boy has been unfair and greedy in my opinion!
The lady with the bitch has no puppies and is out of pocket (not only the stud fee but travel and blood testing costs too that can add up to fair bit of money).
Yes it is a risk you take I suppose but still, I believe in treating people like I would like to be treated and in the situation the lady is in, I would love to have some of my hard earned cash back.
The stud contract might state I will not get any back fair enough, but in my heart I would feel it would be fair and nice thing to do to return some of it...
So as a stud owner I would give all back or at least some of it taking out a sum for the effort...

Sometimes it is not the bitch or the dog at fault but the combination of the two...

If you're a business woman then I suppose you'd keep the stud fee.
If you're a hobbiest who wants to be fair to a fellow breeder you'd refund

I agree with the above statement totally.

It always amazes me that people with stud dogs can be happy to keep a stud fee when no puppies are produced. Most of these same people would claim that their "dogs are their hobby", "pets first & foremost", "not a money making machine" & "definitely not a business".

When anyone uses my stud dogs, they pay the stud fee at the time of mating, but if no puppies are produced, for whatever reason, I refund the stud fee in full. What have I lost? A couple of hours managing the matings perhaps. The bitch owner, on the other hand, has possibly had the expense of blood tests, possibly CHV vaccines & definitely travel expenses, & then the disappointment of no litter. Why would I want to add to their misery? Even if it is not my stud dog at fault (which no-one can actually prove, as stud dogs can be temporarily infertile), I prefer to be fair to people, as breeding properly is difficult enough as it is.

In my breed the stud fees for a good dog are a minimum of £700. This is a lot of money for someone to lose with nothing to show for it. I would refund in full & have a clear conscience. 

I would refund in full & have a clear conscience. 

But this stud dog owner gave their time a total of SEVEN TIMES according to the original post. To not get a penny for that seems extremely unfair.

But we're not in business are we? When there are puppies produced, it is a good hourly rate of return, even with seven visits!

When there are puppies produced, it is a good hourly rate of return, even with seven visits!

How do you work that one out? It isn't the stud dog owner that gets the puppies.

The bitch owner is certainly not entitled to a refund because the stud dog owner has fulfilled to the letter their part of the contract - the matings took place and puppies were conceived. What happens beyond that time is totally outwith their control and therefore they should not be penalised for it.  Unfortunately some people are unethical and assume that because a mating took place there is a guarantee of puppies - sorry, but that's not how nature works.

As a gesture of goodwill I would offer yet another free repeat mating at the next season, and after that call it quits.

By Goldmali (****) [gb] Date 03.07.14 12:06 GMT

When there are puppies produced, it is a good hourly rate of return, even with seven visits!

How do you work that one out? It isn't the stud dog owner that gets the puppies.

The stud dog owner gets the stud fee when there are puppies produced.

Stroppimare, in animal breeding a stud fee is for the use of the dog/bull/stallion/whatever - in other words for the mating. The stud owner is not responsible for the bitch carrying the puppies to term.

Stroppimare, in animal breeding a stud fee is for the use of the dog/bull/stallion/whatever - in other words for the mating.

That is the case if your animals are a business, I agree.

No, it's normal practice to stick to agreed contracts.

A stud fee is for the use of the dog. Anything else is a bonus - after all, the dog owner wouldn't be wanting a higher fee if the bitch had 15 puppies than if it had 10!

I know not valid in this situation but I like the way they often work on the continent. Handling fee and then a price per pup to a max when they are born.
Different people will look at a stud contract as puppies conceived and other puppies produced as in given birth and alive and well.

I know not valid in this situation but I like the way they often work on the continent. Handling fee and then a price per pup to a max when they are born.

I have never liked that. The bitch owner is effectively penalised for ending up with a large litter. It is perfectly feasible that somebody unscrupulous may (as IS done abroad) end up culling pups, especially if mismarked and therefore definite pets only, to pay less of a stud fee. Some breeds are extremely hard to sell, not everyone is pleased with a big litter, and if you both have the problem of finding many homes PLUS having to pay per pup, I can see some pups conveniently dying.

That is the case if your animals are a business, I agree.

I assume you have never bred a litter of pups. And if you did, you would give them away for free?

Still cannot BELIEVE how anyone can say a stud owner should give their time on 7 occasions for no money whatsoever. That's treating the stud dog owner (and the dog) as nothing more than a public service. When visiting a stud dog you usually end up spending several hours there, so 7 occasions could more or less equal a full week's work.

Goldmali, yes I have both dogs & bitches & have bred litters myself. The op asked what we would do, I have answered her with what I do. I prefer to treat people as I would like to be treated. I obviously think it's nice to receive a stud fee, but only when the bitch owner has puppies to show for it. Otherwise, I refund stud fee in full, & ok I've wasted a couple of hours in managing matings.

& ok I've wasted a couple of hours in managing matings.

7 times would be an awful lot more than a couple though, wouldn't it -this is my entire point. I have certainly never spent less than 3 hours at a stud dog owner's house, usually around 5, hence possibly 35 hours in total. And they tend to offer you lunch or dinner each time as well.

I've seen all kinds of stud dog owners...from the "All business", contracts, money first, keep you on the drive way after a 600 mile round trip.." Service station down the road if you need a loo" types
.....right through to those who will bend over backwards with help and hospitality to get the bitch owner a litter....no matter what.

Undoubtedly a personal choice just as when puppy owners want to visit several times and for long periods. It goes with the territory.

Contractual agreement and then there is no ambiguity.

It is up to the stud dog owner to set their stud fee & terms, then it is up to the bitch owner whether they accept them & use the dog, or go to a different dog. I find that many people return to my dogs for future litters, not only because they like my dogs, but also because they know I won't take a stud fee if the mating is not successful. I also like to be there for them at any time to help & advise - sometimes for months in advance, spending hours on the phone, especially with first time breeders. I don't expect to be remunerated for any extra time. I do it this way because of my commitment to improvement of the breed.

I have only ever taken a stud handling fee at time of mating - and then only if they tied.  On the first season I feel it was wrong for the stud dogs owner to have taken a full stud fee as there was no tie.  Yes, slips can be sucessful but I would prefer not to take a fee.
For the second season, stud dog anf bitch had sucessful mating - therefore the free return of the stud contract was obliged by the stud dogs owner.  If she reabsorbed the puppies, I don't feel that is the stud dogs fault.
As a goodwill gesture, I would hope the studs owner would offer a mating on her next season.
This is where it is essential you are aware of the stud dogs contract before entering into any mating.

I have only taken stud fee after 1st tie. The fee is 1/3 the price of the pup and my contract states clearly that miscarriage/reabsorption will not be compensated. Its not business but my dog has done his part and that is what the payment is for. If the bitch reabsorbed or miscarried how if that the fault of the stud? I take time off work, prepare a salad lunch/tea, provide hot/cold drinks and provide a care pack. There have been times where the breeder has miscalculated and no tie but I have never charged petrol money, or they come over once, nothing happens and never hear from them again even though they know I've taken time off. I know thats not the fault of a breeder who does turn up etc but its swings and roundabouts.

BUT, if the stud fee is a stupid amount then I would agree that some should be compensated to the breeder. In this case however, I'd say its a right cheek to demand money back after so many visits and the stud owner's time.

I always come back to the same point...if this were a person and they paid for IVF that had failed, they'd not get anything back...infact, they'd be lining up to try again.  Cold but true.

I've just mated my maiden bitch - my first time as well.  The stud is proven.  We only got two slip matings, and she's only 21 days so I don't know if she's pregnant yet.  I tried to give the stud owner some money - she refused, and said half when pregnancy's confirmed, and half when the puppy's are born.  Although I progesterone tested, my girl wasn't quite ready on the first day, so I ended up going 5 afternoon's in a row spending a couple of hours there each time!  If it doesn't work then I need pay no money, and I'm not committed to going back there next time.

Not only was she good to me, but a bitch has came over a few weeks earlier from Poland.  Again, the testing showed she was ready, but she obviously wasn't.  The only time she was interested in the stud was when they had to leave to go and get on the ferry they'd already booked.  The dog wasn't pregnant.  The stud dog owner put them up in her house for 3 days, and didn't charge them a penny.

So there are some good people out there!  Stud fee is £600

I would say as the bitches had been confirmed pregnant the stud dog had held up his end of the breeding so technically the bitches owners are not due anything especially as that breeding was the free one after the first season one's failed to get her pregnant. So the stud agreement the bitches owner agreed to has been fulfilled.

However if I was the stud owner I would feel that morally I should give a partial refund if the stud fee was a descent amount of money as I would feel bad keeping it all when the bitches owner didn't get a litter to show for it even if that was not my studs fault. But if I was the bitches owner I would not expect the stud owner to offer me anything as she got pregnant and the fault of losing the litter would be on the bitches end. Yes I would be gutted and would hope the stud owner would offer another free go or partial refund but I wouldn't expect it or demand it.

Also I noticed u said one of the options the bitches owner wanted was money off of a pup from the stud owner. I would question why they are breeding in the first place if there happy to have a pup from a diffrent breeding instead of trying again, as surely the reason they were breeding there girl was because they wanted a pup from her rather than wanting just any pup.

>as surely the reason they were breeding there girl was because they wanted a pup from her rather than wanting just any pup.

They may of course really have wanted a pup by the stud dog and be willing to take one by him from another bitch, as they had no luck with their own girl.

>I have only ever taken a stud handling fee at time of mating - and then only if they tied.  On the first season I feel it was wrong for the stud dogs owner to have taken a full stud fee as there was no tie.  Yes, slips can be sucessful but I would prefer not to take a fee.

YAY!  Thank you.  I've been yelling this at the screen.  So glad that I read down first.  I'm a stud dog owner and would never take money after so many slip matings.  (Usually means bitch isn't ready.)

I only charge £200 stud fee anyway (if I charge at all) and I don't understand how some people can be so unhelpful.

someone mentioned confirmation of pregnancy meant the dog had done it's job and the loss fo the litter was the bitches fault.

There can of course be some basic genetic incompatibility between the dog and bitch and any pups conceived turn out to be unviable.

On the toehr hadn what about those who choose to watit and see, if a litter arrives and enver know the bitch absorbed.

would seem in this case where the stud owner takes payment for a confirmation of pregnancy that the breeder is better off financially not seeking such confirmation.

These days I am less impatient, generally can tell within a few days of a scan if my bitch is in whelp anyway, so now didn't bother.

In fact I only had Inka scanned this last season, as I was pretty certain she was in whelp, but she started going flat at 6 1/2 weeks rather than increasing in girth, and a scan showed fetal sack remnants where pups had been absorbed.

I chose not to go back to the same stud dog, as this to be her last litter and the dog is also older, so am hoping to try a young maiden dog this time.

In my breed it is usual for the bitch to stay around a week with the stud owner, though I always supply her food.  In this case (I have used the families other male twice on different bitches), and they have always met us half way to save driving, and I always feel honour bound to pay for fuel, as this is an extra service and out of pocket expense (which reminds me they refused it at the time this time do I must remember to cough up next time we meet).

All the stud dog owners in my breed that I have dealt with have looked on the proposed mating as something towards maintaining the breed, think long and hard if the proposed pairing had the potential to make a  positive contribution to the breed in this country overall.   We are generally disappointed if none of the pups do end up doing so, even though they are all in loving homes.