At a Dogs Trust chipping event recently, I was told that No Dog Warden in the country would even look for a tattoo, only a chip.   Even if they found one, they wouldn't persue it, as they'd have to make a phonecall!   So the dog would go straight to the pound!

As I've always had my dogs and pups chipped, with the idea that my details are kept on the register even if they are transferred, as a way of them at least being returned to me,  I found this extremely worrying. 

I've also been told the same by my local dog warden.

I've contacted the National Dog Tattoo Register with regard to this for their input.

Of course I was also told that chips never move unless the dog's owner hasn't followed instructions, and they never fail to work.  Which I'm not too confident of.  Tchnology isn't infallible.

As chipping will be law in Wales at least from next year, I suppose it makes no difference, we'll have to chip or break the law, but it woud seem that a safeguard I thought was in place is completely useless.

Currently waiting for the NDTR to reply

Personally I would liken a tattoo to an LP or a typewriter. They were great at the time, but now we have better ways of doing the same thing.  No nothing is failproof but no doubt something will eventually come along to replace the microchip as well.

I have known several people get their dogs back through the tattoo registry, and plenty where chips have been missed.

In fact one dog bred by my friend had been in the dogs home for weeks, as they didn't recognise it as a Border Collie as it was Blue merle.  It was when the vet did his health check that the tattoo was picked up. 

His owners details were out of date, but they traced the breeder despite the fact she had moved several times since he was tattooed.

In the end it is down to humans doing their part.

There is a huge bias in favour of chips, but as a breeder the NDTR are the only ones who guarantee to keep my details permanently linked with the pups, no matter what changes to contact details the new owner does or more likely does not make.

Personally all my dogs are Ear Tattooed with the NDTR at 7 weeks, then Microchipped, and always wear collars and tags with my address and correct phone number.

The NTDR do themselves no favours - I've never known a vet to have heard of them, and they certainly don't have their phone number anywhere.The NTDR needs to get flyers out to every practice. Even when vets check in the ears their thumb is usually covering the tattoo and they'd never notice it if they weren't actively looking for it, especially if the dog is struggling.

I always used to think that tattoos were a great idea, and have never had any trouble reading them even after 14 years, but they're harder to find, much more time-consuming to read and carry a greater risk of being bitten when you try.

I just looked at the NDTR website and found that to tattoo one puppy costs £7, to register it costs £25 and then to transfer it from the breeder to a new owner costs another £25. That is a whopping £57 per puppy! Buying chips in bulk, it costs me £3.50 to microchip a puppy and I register it into the new owner's name so that I know it has been done, and no need for a transfer. I can also easily add my own phone number as an emergency contact. As most puppy buyers don't even transfer KC registration, I'd not trust them to transfer anything else either. Certainly last time I bought a pup myself that was tattooed I never bothered to transfer it due to the high cost.

Out in Canada where at the time it was either nose printing or tattoo (the former being pointless and now stopped, in favour of microc hipping as I understand it) we always tattooed, and had a personal Tat.number to which was added a letter for the year, and a number for each puppy in the litter.   I'd far prefer to be able to do this in the UK rather than chipping although terrible things have been done to dogs to get the tat. removed, especially when it's done on ears, as it was with mine.   I must say when I had tats. done, early days, it was still via the crunch which I, and my poor vet, hated doing.  Then it was done by electronic pencil which still upset the puppies, but nowhere near as much as the crunch.

I have had my Basset chipped already, ahead of the law that's coming in in the UK but not yet my Whippet who I suppose will have to be done eventually.   Can vets let the authorities know if a client doesn't have a microchipped dog, that they know about, I wonder?

Mine always wear collars with ID on when out and to be honest, I really resent being forced to microchip by a Government.  Just me.

ps   - To learn that a dog with a Microchip still goes to the Shelter, fills me with horror.

> Of course I was also told that chips never move unless the dog's owner hasn't followed instructions, and they never fail to work.  Which I'm not too confident of.  Tchnology isn't infallible.

Utter rot.  They do fail, and they do move.  Remy's is slightly on the side of his neck and Soli's had moved right down the side of her shoulder - I had to tell the vet nurse where to scan when I had it checked once as it had gone totally outside of the normal scanning area.  In some dogs - not many, but some - they can also cause serious reactions.  Happened to a friend's dog and almost killed her (no exaggeration, although in the main that was because the vets refused to believe it was the chip so didn't remove it until she was a very, very bad way), so she can never be chipped again.

Re. tattoo transfer cost - as far as I'm aware, the new owner pays the transfer fee.  I did when I got Saffi, although she was an adult then.

I have gone off them a bit I must say - time was, all my dogs were chipped and tattooed but Saffi's tattoo was not transferred by her first owners, or found by the rescue they dumped her in, or by her new owners, or by any vets along the way, and she'd had a c-section and spay before I got her so no fleeting visits.  I found it the day I brought her home and it was still registered to the breeder - I was able to let the breeders know what had happened to her and find out her rough DOB from it.

Now only half of mine are tattooed, the other half aren't for behavioural reasons (doing so conscious would do immense psychological damage to them because of nerves/trust issues).  Willow is the only one not chipped though, and she will be when she's spayed (she's one of the nervous ones so I won't put her through that conscious either).

If you have a litter tattooed the cost is much cheaper - it doesn't actually cost you anything if you take the £25 from the new owner as part of the puppy price.
You pay £7 at time of tattooing + £20 registration fee.  Send of the other £18 per puppy when you sell them.  You will eventually get the £20 registration fee back too.
I both tattoo and microchip my puppies - better to be safe rather than sorry....

Re. tattoo transfer cost - as far as I'm aware, the new owner pays the transfer fee.  I did when I got Saffi, although she was an adult then.

Yes but if they won't pay the cheaper fee to transfer KC registration, why would they bother with this? I didn't myself, I saw no point at all as the dog was chipped as well. My point was that for £3.50 I both get each pup chipped AND registered and KNOW it has been done.

When you've tattooed a litter it's usual to include the transfer fee to the puppy price and do it yourself.

>I can also easily add my own phone number as an emergency contact.

that is an excellent idea. I think I will do that when I chip my puppies in future.

If you have a litter tattooed the cost is much cheaper - it doesn't actually cost you anything if you take the £25 from the new owner as part of the puppy price.
You pay £7 at time of tattooing + £20 registration fee.

My apologies, I did not read it properly. However it is still £7 plus £25 (not 20) and I would not want to ask an extra £25 per pup for something which really is of no use. Huge difference to the £3.50 I pay out in total. If owners then move house or similar it is a one off fee of £15 for life with Pet Log so still much cheaper. If they don't, they have no need to pay anything extra.

Even many vets can't get microchips that cheap!

Timely thread for me.  My boy is tattooed.  But there is a microchip clinic at the rescue around the corner on Saturday, $25/dog or cat.   I'm considering having him chipped too.    A consideration for me is all the times there has been a stray cat or  dog in the neighbourhood and nobody but me takes anybody to have them scanned for a chip.  However I was impressed with how quickly I was able to reunite a lost poodle with her owners because she had a chip.  With the tattoo or the tags on a dogs collar I would have had to wait till Monday when the CKC and Vet offices were open.  Actually the poodles chip tag was on her collar, didn't need to scan for it, but it's a wonder the collar was still on.  It was too loose and she'd lost weight over the 5 days she'd been lost.

You pay £7 at time of tattooing + £20 registration fee.

Sorry the £20 is for litter registration under the breeder scheme - I disagree that tattoo's are of no use.  I believe that being such a visible sign that the dog can be identified will deter any potential 'dog-napper' - money extremely well spent I would say...

Even many vets can't get microchips that cheap!

That makes no sense at all -unless they all only use the more expensive ones that ONLY vets can buy, I can't remember the brand name now. (I liked the tiny implantation gun they come with when I had run out of chips once and had the vet do two pups so looked it up, and that brand will only supply vets. Bayer possibly?) Buy 100 and it's as cheap as this and it's not hard to find.

https://www.peddymark.com/pet-implanter-products/iso-microchips/?page=1&rt=/pet-implanter-supplies/pet-microchips/sub-department-1/&psort=&departmentID=15&subdepartmentID=98 £287.50 plus VAT for 100.

http://www.pet-detect.com/shop.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=36&category_id=8 £324 plus VAT for 100.

I believe that being such a visible sign that the dog can be identified will deter any potential 'dog-napper' - money extremely well spent I would say...

But it ISN'T visible -unless you have a shortcoated white dog with large ears. On my Cavaliers you could not see the tattoos AT ALL, you had to shave the fur off inside the ear completely to spot some colour but no numbers. On my oldest Malinois you could not see it unless you carefully parted the fur inside the right ear -you'd never have spotted it had you not known where to look, and you certainly could not read the numbers. I have one tattooed dog left, an 11 year old Golden Retriever, and you certainly never see his tattoo unless you search as again the fur is in the way. Visible deterrent it most definitely is not.

I am really unsure about chips. Witnessed a situation at the weekend where a dog that was fully vaccinated by previous owner and paperwork to prove it same vet since a pup all handed over to rescue. When it came to checking the chip for new owner no chip was found. so the dog was chipped there and then
What concerned me was that it seems to be very easy to miss a chip I am still surprised this particular dog wasn't chipped given everything else had been followed to the letter until surrender so that still means there could be a chip out there with someone elses  details on. They do migrate and to goodness knows where,
This particular situation will be fine but not all will be

> But it ISN'T visible -unless you have a shortcoated white dog with large ears.

Yes, this is a problem.  None of my dogs' tattoos are visible.

One reason I would keep doing them though is extra identification - no idea where the law stands on that (given that microchips are still only proof of the chip, not the dog) but I figure it can't hurt to have an extra and unique way to tell a pound/rescue/whoever that they do indeed have my dog, if I can tell them where to look for a tattoo and tell them the tattoo number over the phone.  Better than saying 'she's got a spot on her left ear' or the like!

What concerned me was that it seems to be very easy to miss a chip

It shouldn't be. Anyone who is trained to scan for a chip is told to do it ALL over the body in case one isn't found in the usual area, to play safe. Yes chips move at times, and yes there have been occasions when they have actually come out -I had a cat have hers works its way out several years after it had been inserted. I also know of a dog who after years developed an abscess and inside it was the chip. But it's the exception rather than the rule. I have almost 60 chipped animals here alone and my kids have always seen it as a great game to go around with the scanner and find everyone's chip, so I know all are present and correct. The cats' chips you often feel when stroking the cat, but hardly ever the dogs'. The dogs also get theirs checked when going abroad, when being eye tested, hip scored etc and I've never had one move far or fail.

Better than saying 'she's got a spot on her left ear' or the like!

I can see that point but would think that DNA profiling might be even better for such an occasion. It's £25 per dog (according to KC website) so no more expensive.

Very true, but for on-the-spot ID I figure a tattoo is better - but that said, I don't know anything about the DNA profiling beyond the fact it exists!

A microchip does NOT prove ownership of anything but the chip-that is the current law on property. Rescues can apply to Petlog or whatever registry the chip(not the dog)is registered with to transfer ownership to them without the previous owner's signature or permission. They can then dispose of the dog in anyway they see fit & that includes having the dog PTS.

There was a Dalmatian that ended up with a well known main stream rescue & the chip registration was transferred the chip to the rescue & the dog was destroyed. All this despite the fact that the Registry had the chip being marked up as in a STOLEN dog ! The registry refused to tell the co owner where the dog was on the grounds that they did not have full permission of BOTH the registered chip owners !!!

Only a permanent MARK can identify property-marks are engravings, brands(cold or hot), tattoo or "Magic Water" which cannot be removed without  permanently damaging the property. Chips are neither a mark nor permanent & this is the point of law used by rescues to transfer the ownership of the chip(& the property it is contained in)to themselves & disposing of the property.

I've rung ALL the 10 vets in my area & ALL are aware of ear tattooing & 5 actually check for chip AND tattoo on all new animals being registered with them-a few "missing/stolen" pets have been discovered this way.

My dogs have by law to be microchipped, but they are also tattooed & wear collars with ID plates on 24/7

As for the NDTR not having their telephone number anywhere-perhaps a quick google of dog ear tattoo isn't beyond most veterinary practices & rescues

As a non chipper to chip a litter of puppies at the vet would cost me £25 per puppy, and ahs done in the past when they have been going abroad.

Petlog do not carry a list of Qualified Microchippers, so unless you know a breeder or other person who chips your option is the vets.

Mine are a medium breed with thick double coat and neat ears, but I can see the tattoos in face on photographs, yet I don't notice them when looking at them, as I suppose the brain filters it out, like the stuff under the bed or sofa that you notice in photos..

>Certainly last time I bought a pup myself that was tattooed I never bothered to transfer it

I actually don't mind this, as the reason I tattoo pups is so they can be traced back to me should they end up in rescue.

I do encourage new owners to have their pups chipped in addition. 

All mine are also chipped, but mainly due to being forced to if I want to travel overseas with them.

Belt and Braces, and they still wear the legally required (but unenforced) collars and tags.  As the requirement for collars and tags, the lack of usually plainly visible, isn't enforced, what would anyone like to bet that mandatory chipping will be ignored by a high proportion of people who even know about it.

Seven or so years on man6y people are still unaware that docking is illegal, and that Pitbulls are ilegal.

"Belt and Braces, and they still wear the legally required (but unenforced) collars and tags.  As the requirement for collars and tags, the lack of usually plainly visible, isn't enforced, what would anyone like to bet that mandatory chipping will be ignored by a high proportion of people who even know about it."

You've hit the nail on the head there Barbara. Was at a Dog Law talk a couple of weeks ago and Trevor Cooper said that the collar/tag law is hardly ever enforced and he thought it would be even worse with microchips because at least you can see if a dog is wearing a collar tag.

BTW - the legal requirement for the tag is to contain your name and address.

Re collars and tags. We live in a semi rural area so large properties abound and secure fencing is rarely achievable. Dogs often escape and frequently get brought along to our place or turn up there. They are rarely collared and tagged. The excuse being that working dogs never wear them. This makes locating owners v. difficult. I have been occasionally reduced to running along the road in my nightie in attempts to locate owners. It's great when all's well that ends well but life could be made easier if they wore collars and tags, as mine do.

I believe collars and tags are very necessary. Would it be reasonable to expect someone to scan the whole body and not just the neck shoulders and front legs ?

There was a breeder at my breed specific forum that was called up about a dog in a horrific state, handed in at a vets practice 300 miles away fom her home. The vet traced her through the ear tattoo. The dog was chipped and registered to the father of the person that relinquished it. She was starved, matted and had a curled in dew claw. If the vet hadn't taken the initiative, i dread to think where that poor girl would be now. Breeder collected, took a huge hamper to say thanks and has kept the bitch.

All of my dogs are chipped and wear chain collars with id tags at all times which differ from their lead collars. 2 of my dogs have roaming microchips and i have to remind the vet to check them when they get their yearly m.o.t.

The id tags have my name, postcode and 2 telephone numbers. I don't care what the law says. There is no way I will put my address on the dog's collar. God forbid, if they were ever taken, the last thing I'd want is for the theif to know where I live and that the guard dog wasn't there!

If they ever need to go under for anything, I will be talking to my vet about getting them tattooed too.

> If they ever need to go under for anything, I will be talking to my vet about getting them tattooed too.

This is a good idea, if it's doable.  The tattooer that did my guys said once that he hated doing adults - pups were over quick with hardly a fuss but for adults it is a very painful thing to do, not pleasant at all.  This is why some of mine aren't done now - that experience would just ruin them.

>If they ever need to go under for anything, I will be talking to my vet about getting them tattooed too.

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You'd need to liaise with the NDTR chipper for your area, to go to your vet practice and do it. It's not something vets are able to do.

Incidentally, when I've had adults tattooed they just sat there and wagged their tails; there was far more protest (very loud shrieks) from the puppies.

I've had adults tattooed they just sat there and wagged their tails

Daughter had adult Rott and teenage xbreed tattooed, had a treat ready in front of them and no wingeing off either

Don't care what the law says , since having someone stop to pet my dogs and have a sly look at their tags I am never putting my address on them.

All of mine that I've had done have either really whined very loudly or actually screamed!  Certainly they haven't sat there and wagged their tails, and it's just not a risk I'm willing to take with the worrybums.  If it didn't hurt great, but if it did, it would do an immeasurable amount of psychological damage with the baggage they have so it's just not worth it.

(Just tagging on to end -no pun intended). I will have collars and discs on dogs during walks, but NEVER EVER at home. It is just far too dangerous when you have dogs that play by biting around other dog's necks. I almost lost a dog once when two youngsters started playing, both were wearing collars indoors, and one got its mouth stuck in the other's collar. So one was screaming with a mouth pouring with blood, the other was being strangled. It was almost impossible to get the collar off. Had I not been at home, one dog would have died.  Also wearing collars all the time leaves really bad marks in the coat of a Malinois so would look bad at shows.

The trouble is, should a dog escape -no collar and disc. There is just no way to get round BOTH safety problems. Even for dogs that might not play it doesn't work for mine to have collars on at home. I imported an 11 month old dog in March, and initially he was quite understandably shy and nervous of us -being of a breed that is not outgoing with strangers. So I bought a nice fleecy collar at Crufts and left it on him, thinking I would have a way to grab him should I need to. Didn't work. Less than 24 hours later the other dogs were running around with the collar, having chewed it off him.

All of mine that I've had done have either really whined very loudly or actually screamed!

Many years ago (before microchips) when I worked as a vet nurse in Sweden, you VERY frequently found it extremely difficult to examine the tattooed ear of dogs, as they were terrified of having that ear touched.

I have had several litters of puppies tattooed and the very most noise they make is a squeak for a second.  As soon as the ink (with local anaesthetic in) is rubbed in, they are turning their heads in pleasure.  The following day they are covered in ink where they've been playing which always makes me smile...  A second or two of pain for them is well worth it in my opinion...

I've had adults done and it was no worse than the pups. 

My friend brought her sensitive rescue collies and they were fine also.

The bite/crunch from the callipers seems no worse that the injection for a chip and then the rubbing in of the ink seems to be soothing and viewed as an apology for 'accidentally' (on purpose) hurting them.

Marianne , I had the exact same thing happen re the a dog getting it's jaw stuck in the others collar, damned scary and luckily I had a pen knife in my pocket to cut the collar free.

Mine are naked at home for the same reason, it's just not safe to do otherwise.  They actually don't have collars at all - some years ago River went exploring in undergrowth and got hers snagged on a bit of rebar sticking out of an old concrete post, at her head height.  In her panic she flipped herself over, twisting her collar and nearly choked - if she hadn't squeaked I don't think I'd have found her in time :-(  It was snugly fitting too, which is supposed to be a safeguard against that sort of thing happening.

So everyone wears harnesses for walks and the tags go on those.

Emergencies do worry me though - I have enough slip leads for everyone but I find them a pain to do quickly, so I'm going to get martingales made in a different colour for each dog (they have a different coloured bowl each so I'd know which collar was for which dog instantly), so I can leave them hanging up with leads attached then I can just whip them on the dogs for a quick exit if we need to (e.g. house fire).

> My friend brought her sensitive rescue collies and they were fine also.

As were my friends' collies.  But Rai has some serious handling issues - the handling alone to be tattooed would cause immense distress for her, she absolutely cannot be muzzled and she'd need to be as the experience of having the caliper put in would likely cause her to bite, and with little or no warning.  So that 5-second experience would result in a very dangerously ill dog (high stress triggers HGE, which muzzling alone will do) with drastically worsened issues.

Willow would maybe be fine with it, but like Rai she's one for whom one bad experience sticks for a LONG time; and Phoebe would absolutely bite, no doubt at all and no warning at all.  She's never been muzzled but again, I wouldn't want to risk adding a lifelong issue to her very long list!

I agree Jan. If a dog strays who's to say the person that finds it will be "bothered" to take it somewhere to get it scanned... If there's a tag, you can ring them instantly! (Providing it's up todate!). I know the GC tests require them - but I've seen people being given a pass and just being told "don't forget to get a collar".

Walking dogs I used to often run into straying dogs and it is so much easier to walk them home (usually have a spare lead on me), but now with having to get them to the dogs home or ring dog warden I am less likely to pick one up, as I don't want to take them home with me, and possibly have to keep them until office hours.

The idea that burglar bill would ro0be my house because the dog is not there is pretty far fetched ad most burglaries are opportunistic, and whose to say you don't have other dogs or an alarm.

As with my friend so many people now rely on mobile phones an too often change their numbers for tags to be up to date, I'd hope the address would be.

Mine wear half check collars all the time, as for me the risk is greater of being let out onto a busy road, than of them playing and getting collars caught, as with their thick ruffs (except when done to nothing after a litter) make the kind of accident of teeth catching unlikely.  when left in the kitchen they tend not to play but settle, so a lower risk, the rest of the time I am there to supervise. 

I have had it happen only once and could have cut the collar off, but in the event just looped the collar off the canine.  Fortunately they tend not to panic too much but keep still to be rescued. It was Mum and youngish pup.

>If a dog strays who's to say the person that finds it will be "bothered" to take it somewhere to get it scanned..

If it's out of office hours or at the weekend there's nowhere to take them; the dog warden's off duty and the vets are shut except for emergencies (and a vet isn't going to get out of bed to scan a stray dog!). So if there's no address to take the dog to then it'll just get left to take its chances.

Twice I've found a dog straying in my village on a Saturday night ( same dog too ) both times I had to take him along to the police station in Cupar, a twenty min drive away, as he had no disc, he could have been home in no time if he'd even had a phone number on him.

The police in England won't have anything to do with stray dogs now that responsibility has been taken from them and given to councils.

My sister was burgled brainless, because the dog was at mine. They watched her leave and 15mins later ransacked the place. The dog hasn't left since. She was mid-extention and alarm deactivated.

Mine all wear chain collars with their tags all the time. It doesn't Matt the fur or damage it and they can slip off quite easily in an emergency but have half chokes for their walks. Much more suited to were we live.

but that was someone watching a place not picking up a straying dog.  Surely the dog still geos for walks?

Gillian Christian has replied to my email  :-)

She is going to contact the dogs trust regarding the information they gave me.

She also pointed out that the information held by the NDTR is held securely and covered by data protection.

This is an interesting point, since the Petlog website appears to allow people to search for chip details, rather than there being a human interface between your details and say, a dog warden searching for details.   My point being that anyone can type in a wrong number really quickly, and then when they contact that person they are going to deny the dog, because it isn't theirs.  But of course the Dog Warden will then just think they are abandoning the dog and not search further.  Same with the Dog's Trust.

A human interface though, and there is more likely to be a conversation,  and a double check of the number and description.

The Petlog site refers only to 'The Keeper'  and the 'Keepership' (sic) of a dog, not the owner.   So clearly this is a legal distinction.

Gillian also wrote that they get Dog Wardens ringing up regularly.

She does mention that these 'rescues'  (her commas)  seem to be in denial of the NDTR existence, but I wonder if they need to raise their profile with the public and with rescue organisations.

There's been a spate of burglaries locally, they come in, whilst the owners are in the house!   

Just walk in the front door and snatch what they can!   Last one was 2 doors away!   My dogs have been barky lately, now we know why.    Most burglars are opportunists, they look for an easy quick job,  not a long planned op starting with the dogs address, for a start, the dog is no guide to whether it's worth a trip ;-)

I don't have my dog's names on their tags, just our surname and address and telephone no.  On the back, my mobile no, which never changes, I've had it 14 years.   The second tag says tattooed,  NDTR and the phone no.