I spotted a miniscule drop of blood on the vynl yesterday and paper tested all the girls but found nothing. Tried again this morning and my black girl is starting her heat.

Thanks to all the excellent advice from everyone here, I have read book after book, spent time with a lady who scans bitches for a living and is a kca breeder herself - although with bostons. I now feel ready to go ahead and try to breed my first litter. I am hoping that you will continue with your support and advice and help with the numerous question which will undoubtedly pop up.

My first question is : do I count that tiny drop of blood yesterday as day 1 or today?

2nd: she is due worming/fleeing with advocat and drontal in 9 days time. Would it be better to do this now?

3rd: very rarely, she starts itching madly around her muzzle  due to allergies and I give her 5ml of piriteze. She weighs 37kg. Can I continue this small amount?

She is fully health tested and of excellent stature but my vet is very pro neutering, his receptionist is worse! So would much rather ask people who actually do rather than preach. Any help right now would be very much appreciated.

My first question would be what do you hope to achieve by breeding?

If your aim is to found a line to continue long term involvement in your chosen canine hobby, so a puppy that is as good or better than it's mother at the sport your involved in.

The ultimate aim should be to maintain or improve the breed so it can continue into the future for the enrichment of your and others lives.

If the breed is numerically small and needs as many enthusiasts as possible to continue and strengthen the gene pool then even well thought out occasional litters can be of use to the breed if at least some fo the puppies later go on to be included in the gene pool.

As the breed is numerically strong, and especially exploited and popular, then you should really ask yourself would your aims be better achieved by having a puppy from elsewhere (your bitches breeder may be breeding from the mother or sister, or her sire may have offspring being bred from etc), or even a rescue dog.

You say she is fully health tested, so I am assuming at least Hip scored, also elbow scored, with good results, eye tested and has had any other breed specific DNA or clinical tests???

I would then ask myself are her allergies a reason not to breed?  Are they common in the breed or line, and how do they manifest.

In some breeds atopy can be serious and debilitating.  I am sure you have heard what an awful time and uncomfortable life some Westies have due to the prevalent skin issues the breed has.

A daughter of one of my girls went to a fellow breeder and after her second vaccination at 10 weeks started to have pronounced hayfever type issues, which went on for most of her first year.  this caused scarring to one of her eyelids to the extent it had thickened so much that a lice needed to be removed to loosen it.

We decided it would not be a good idea to breed from her and she is now in a non breeding pet home, has grown out of the issue (but will never have the brand of American vaccine she had as a pup).  she is the adored companion of her new family and best friends of their little girl who is the same age.

Hi brainless,

Having been through all the options you suggested, we have decided to keep at least 2 puppies ourselves. My husband works with dogs and these are working lines. Although we love the bitch's line, having purchased her, and paying a hefty deposit, we found that the training methods the breeder used on his dogs were unacceptable to us and we do not wish to line his pockets further.

This bitch has proven to be exceptional at her job as have 4 of her other siblings and her sire. The stud dog is a working dog with the police and the owner will be looking to purchase pups from this litter too should she be successful. I have searched far and wide for him and with the owner researched both lines. The breeding coefficient is zero. Studs hips are 2/4 and elbows 1. The bitch is scored at 2/2 elbows 0. Eyes tested, Epilepsy clear, pituitary dwarfish clear. Both have even temperaments and are family dogs as well as strong workers. We have been honest with faults and are looking to improve these - ears not close enough on the dog with a longer tail and height in the bitch as she is just over an inch taller than breed standard. Although working dogs we do still want to try and stick to it. Her allergies are to storage mite but only manifest in june/july so we call it hayfever. None of her siblings or parents have this and i have contacted everyone involved in her line, I can to confirm this. She isn't on any medication and only rarely has piriteze. Only symptoms are mild itching of chin by rubbing on her own legs when laying down or my knee - not very often. No breaking of skin or other visual repercussions. Her diet has been changed to raw and there are hardly any signs at all

This is not a decision I have taken lightly. Over 3 years planning has gone in to this and much thought in to what will happens to pups if they do not make the grade. I have a puppy contract ready, an extensive information booklet on feeding/training/socialisation etc that have put together myself. I have made provisions for any pups that do not find homes or are returned and have factored in the costs of breeding/whelping/rearing and training should pups remain for more than 10-12 weeks.

We have been through the should we/shouldn't we thinking process and have decided to produce our own litter and start our own line IF the pups show prospect. If this is not the case, we will go back to purchasing the dogs required for the job. I know I will be shot down for saying this but I will never go back to having a rescue dog due to poor personal experience and also the fact that the area we live in and type of jobs would probably mean we fail a homecheck.

Thank you for your suggestions and input - I hope I have answered all your questions/concerns and that i haven't offended.

My first question is : do I count that tiny drop of blood yesterday as day 1 or today?

2nd: she is due worming/fleeing with advocat and drontal in 9 days time. Would it be better to do this now?

3rd: very rarely, she starts itching madly around her muzzle  due to allergies and I give her 5ml of piriteze. She weighs 37kg. Can I continue this small amount?

Yes I would count yesterday as day one. And I would definitely worm now and not later. (Drontal is NOT safe in pregnancy.) Personally I don't ever flea treat unless there are fleas, which I haven't seen in years. As for the Piriteze, best to ask your vet but I am not happy using anything during pregnancy and yes like Brainless I would think twice about breeding from a dog with allergies. I also refuse to worm during pregnancy and worm at time of mating and when pups are old enough to be wormed. I once had a bitch have her vaccination booster at the same time as mating, the vet said the manufacturers claimed it was perfectly safe. The litter seemed healthy enough but turned out with a LOT of problems, both behavioural and physical, as adults. Coincidence? I have no idea but will never take such a risk again. I'd rather not treat a pregnant bitch with anything unless absolutely necessary.

The advice for GSDs is now not to bred from any dog/bitch that doesn't have a 0 score for elbows, I believe, having spoken to several breeders of working line GSDs, this is because there is a large enough gene pool of dogs/bitches with 0 elbows that breeding from a dog/bitch with a score of 1 upwards is now frowned upon as it is increasing the likelihood of puppies who have ED. One of the breeders I spoke to has only ever bred from dogs with 0 ED score & yet a very promising young dog has a score which would be 1 in the UK & so he is now in a pet home & not to be bred from.

I always thought that the aim of breeding dogs should be(as I think "Brainless" wrote)should be to improve the health & other desirable aspects of the breed & also to extend good bloodlines, especially in the less numerous breed populations. GSDs have a huge population & working lines are extremely strong, they have good health results & are typical of the breed, fitting the breed standard & (to quote the UK KC)are fit for purpose.

Interestingly many police forces are no longer accepting gifted or stud fee dogs & are opting to buy in fully trained licensed working dogs or breeding their own. There is a lot less risk in buying in a trained dog complete with all relevant health tests of a good level.

I wasn't aware BTW that a marker gene for epilepsy having been found for GSDs, this must have happened very recently after the marker gene was found for BSD(Terv), must be a real step forward.

My only issue, apart from the allergy, would be with the prospective sire having elbow score of 1. 

The kennel club and BVA issued guidance last year saying only 0 Elbow scores should now be used for breeding http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/health/health-information-and-resources/health-schemes-and-programmes/bvakc-health-schemes/bvakc-elbow-dysplasia-scheme/
"Advice to breeders is to use only those dogs with grades of 0, wherever possible"

Thank you for your replies.

Just to be clear, the epilepsy hasn't been tested. We have researched back 9 generations for the stud and 6 for the bitch and there are no accounts recorded for epilepsy.

Police forces are indeed buying in fully trained dogs and most are even reducing the numbers of canine officers. My husbands line of work is security and there is still a high demand of good working dogs. Through research from other working dog breeders in this context we have found that training from week 3 has led to better balanced puppies and allows introduction to new things/experiences within the kennel environment over a slower period and fewer pups not making the grade.

Can I please ask why having a score of 1 in elbows is such a problem when breeders are happy to breed from dogs with higher than average hip scores if they are fit in every other aspect? I do nowever, have a back up stud so plans can be altered.

Thanks goldmali, I flea regularly because we back on to railway tracks and allotments so there are many feral cats and foxes about.But I only do it every 3 months and worm every 6 months. Never had an issue but just wanted to be sure with regards to pregnancy.

Please, please be assured that this isn't a byb job where we have 2 dogs- lets put them together and make lots of money process. In a house with an active stud dog (not lined up as a prospect with this bitch), 3 entire females and ample opportunity (given the chance), we have a strictly regimented gate and crate policy that hasn't failed in 8 years and this is the 1st time we have ever thought of breeding.

Out of interest what does the potential sire have on his elbows each side? The BVA state only to breed from 0 and 1 elbow scores. I personally think that if he really is the best option all round to improve your lines then really an elbow of 1 is not high nor a major issue.
My girl is 0/1 elbows, and Marilyn said only just would it be, however it's stupidly rounded up to a total of 1. I'd be looking at both sides and also the elbow scores of the generations behind too. If all low behind then I'd stick with your original plans..

Suejaw, his elbows are also 0/1  and he is the only one out of his litter with this score. From those still in contact, it has been ascertained that those tested have scores of 0. He did take a stumble in a pothole when he was 10 months old and was restricted to short lead walks for 6 weeks but I don't know if this is the result. I thought I had been thorough in my research but if this is a huge red flag, I can opt for the other dog.

Wouldn't be a red flag to me in buying a pup if everything else was there at all. If the hips were above average or the elbows were higher or his parents were high then I'd probably consider other options.
You are happy with this choice, if it's because he has a 0/1 elbow then I'd not throw him out. You've done everything else and the BVA say it's fine too, if 1 were an issue it would be written on their website..

>The BVA state only to breed from 0 and 1 elbow scores.

This advice was changed last year to only breeding from 0 scores being advised as it has been found breeding from 1's was still turning up to many bad elbows.

As for hips breeding from functionally normal hips which would largely be anything below total score 20, is different than breeding only from below mean scores for a breed.

The comparison chart here is useful to put our scores into context with what is still normal as opposed to RADIOGRAPHICALY PERFECT http://www.offa.org/hd_grades.html

Have you a link Barbara as the only paper on the BVA site says it's ok to breed from 0 and 1 but not anything higher!

I provided the link to the KC page above.  I think you'll find a lot of the BVA health scheme pages not updated regularly, still show very old data for hip results.

There is a link on BVA elbow page http://www.bva.co.uk/canine_health_schemes/Elbow_Scheme.aspx to a grading scheme and breeding advice document

Quote:
"BVA/Kennel Club elbow dysplasia grading scheme
The elbow dysplasia (ED) grading scheme is based on that of the International Elbow Working Group, IEWG, as follows:
*  Grade 0 = a radiographically normal elbow.
*  Grade 1 = there is no visible primary lesion but secondary new bone (osteoarthritis) up to 2mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.
*  Grade 2 = (a) a primary lesion is visible (eg. medial coronoid disease or ununited anconeal process) without visible osteoarthritis OR (b) no primary lesion is visible but osteoarthritis of more than 2mm and up to 5mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.
*  Grade 3 = (a) both a primary lesion and any amount of osteoarthritis are visible OR  (b) no primary lesion is visible but osteoarthritis over 5mm in depth is present at any site around the elbow joint.
The overall grade is that of the worse of the two elbows.

Breeding advice
It is strongly recommended that breeders wishing to reduce the risk of elbow dysplasia should select their breeding stock (both dogs and bitches) only from animals with an overall grade of 0.

Dogs with elbow grades of 2 or 3 have marked osteoarthritis likely to be due to ED, with or without a visible primary lesion. There is a significant chance of ED being passed on to the offspring.

Dogs with elbow grades of 1 show mild or early osteoarthritis which is also likely to be due to ED. They should only be used for breeding with caution, taking into consideration the ED grades of as many relatives as possible, as well as the results of other health tests and characteristics."

Totally different as the way of scoring in the US is different in how they work and there is nothing on there for elbow scoring as we do as in numbers. So we can't say that their criteria for scores on elbows is the same.
Hips have comparison charts but nothing on elbows. The paper on the BVA site is fairly recent, however I will always look at both sides for elbows, just like hips.

Until the BVA say do not breed from anything other than a zero then I'm happy with a one, inothign saying it's not recommended...

The elbow scheme is international, so the same in USA, and elsewhere  as here, where as there are various hip grading and scoring schemes and the chart on the OFA site gives reasonable comparisons, and does put our scores in context with grading schemes.

In my breed we have a lot of imported blood both from Scandinavia so are used to having to utilise info from various schemes.

It maybe international but the way the scores are marked and interpreted is different in the US..
Either way no where does it currently say that a 1 elbow score is not recommended in the UK.

Copied from above quote from BVA page:

"Breeding advice
It is strongly recommended that breeders wishing to reduce the risk of elbow dysplasia should select their breeding stock (both dogs and bitches) only from animals with an overall grade of 0. "

From the KC page:

"Advice to breeders is to use only those dogs with grades of 0, wherever possible" .

Re the elbow scheme, there are international guideines on applying grading of the scheme.


http://www.vetstream.com/canis/Content/Freeform/fre00662
"*Application of screening programs has proved helpful in reducing the incidence of ED in many countries, and these schemes are monitored by the International Elbow Working Group (IEWG)."

http://www.vet-iewg.org/joomla/

I think it really depends on the breed.
In some breeds higher than 0 elbows seem to pop up randomly where as in some breeds a big part of the genepool has higher than 0 and I'm sure I have seen some studies about inheritance models in some of these breeds.
I don't think you can look at all breeds and just state use 0 only, very silly strategy from kennel club.
Some breeds a big part of genepool is cut out based on just one area!

For example Rottweiler where in last 5 years 65% 0, 25% 1, 8% 2, 2% 3 (using data from Europe as don't know if such data exist in UK).
Cut out 25% of breeding genepool based on elbow grade 1?
Yes, in ideal world and aim for 0 but if dog has loads of other qualities and other siblings are scored (I find this is more difficult in UK where less dogs get xrayed) and scores are better than breed average, I don't think dog should be discounted and seen as bad choice.
Most dogs I know of with score 1 have never had issues caused by their elbows...

Allergy on the other hand is something to think hard about in my opinion, immune issues are a pain to live with for a dog and the owner!
In a breed where I think there are quite a few immune system related health issues, healthy immune system is very important.

You're going to keep TWO puppies yourselves??  I'd really recommend you reconsider that, and keep just one!

Rabid,

They will be working dogs so training from an early age is paramount. I currently have two 6 year old entire brothers and have not encountered a problem. Furthermore, they will be assigned to their own handler so the situation is very different from an inexperienced pet owner purchasing siblings and struggling with training/behaviour issues.