Yet more information below about how vets are ignoring the WSAVA guidelines for profit! Those of you who are happy to think your vet is a God and blindly follow the guidelines for yearly boosters take time to watch the webinar. Even as far back as 1908 doctors were questioning the validity of vaccinations? Once again I say there has NEVER, EVER been any scientific evidence to back up giving yearly boosters you cannot booster against immunity. If a puppy has been given one vaccination at the correct time not 8,10 or 12 weeks as they still carry the mothers antibodies  75% of puppy shots given at this time fail this is why vets give two instead of one as they know they dont generally work. Before 1978 only a puppy shot and one year booster was given so if the puppy shots didnt work then the one year booster would cover it but they were not vaccinated again for the rest of their life, Did we have epidemics of distemper NO. Parvo didnt exist until the late 70's early 80's then suprise, suprise scientist already had a vaccine ready and waiting funny that eh? Was the disease created in a lab so they could put yet another vaccine on the market  and make even more money strong evidence suggest this is the case and of course it worked didnt it people flocked to the vets in their droves scared there dogs would catch this new mystery virus. In 1978 the greedy vaccine companies and vets got together and introduced the yearly booster to make them even more money, vets using this as a way to get people to come in once a year as people didnt bother going in for their yearly checks why was this? I tell you why because before then dogs were healthier as they werent vaccinated to death like they are now that's why so many people hardly ever went to the vets but of course people thought this new thing was for the best without even questioning the reasoning behind it or lack of scientific evidence yet here we are today a nation of dogs suffering from epilepsy, cancer at epidemic levels, allergies I could go on and on... this is the reason and it just breaks my heart to read on this site and other forums how people insist they booster every year do everything by the book claiming their dogs are never sick or is it when they are do you not make the connection it was a vaccination that did it? most people dont make the connection but 80% of reactions occur within 3 months of a booster some conditions take longer to manifest. Its not until you have dogs that suffer from vaccine damage and you actually make the connection do you realize how we have been mislead and lied to because we chose not to do our own research and how we choose even now to ignore the solid science and research of Dr R. Schulz and Dr. Jean Dodds who have spent 40 years of their life proving without a shadow of a doubt that boosters are NOT necessary and if a puppy is given a shot at 14-16 weeks of age they are covered for life this is solid scientific fact and yet we ignore it and so do vets WHY?  I know why vets do because its all about profit my own vet has told me 'off the record' he doesnt vaccinate his own dogs because he knows the harm it can do, yet there he is telling other people the complete opposite? When I questioned him about this his reply 'well I am in a practice with 3 other vets we have to agree on protocols and at the end of the day we are a business and have to make money' WTF? How do they sleep at night? A vet takes an oath not to cause harm and here they are on a daily basis doing just that knowing the lifelong conditions they are causing in our pets yet carry on regardless because at the end of the day it makes them even more money doesnt it when you go back with your sick dog! Its a pity that someone doesnt set up a law firm just to sue vets for malpractice in the same way humans can sue doctors I know if there was I would be be at the top of that list after the hell we have been through these last 5 years and it could have all been avoided if I had stopped for one minute to question the bogus information my vet was telling me? It is now my mission in life after what we have been through to inform people and make them stop and think about what they are doing, even if one person takes the time to look further into this then my job is done. I know there will still be people who read this that will ignore science and evidence and I feel really sad people will not except this as fact we are not sheep we are intelligent individuals who can do our own research we cannot rely on our vets ethics anymore the whole system is broken our dogs dont have a choice or voice in any of this its our place to do it for them and its about time this changed. You wouldnt allow your children to be subjected to what is happening to our pets would you, so why is it ok to do it toour pets?               

http://www.wsava.org/article/antibiotics-surgical-patients

http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/dr-patricia-jordan-vaccine-insights-webinar/

http://www.petwelfarealliance.org/background.html

>Before 1978 only a puppy shot and one year booster was given so if the puppy shots didnt work then the one year booster would cover it but they were not vaccinated again for the rest of their life,

I still have our dog's vaccination book from the 1960s and that recommends annual boosters.

>Did we have epidemics of distemper NO

Yes we did. Whole kennels of 'vaccinated' dogs (ie, had just had the puppy vaccinations and a booster at a year) would be wiped out.

>Parvo didnt exist until the late 70's early 80's then suprise, suprise scientist already had a vaccine ready and waiting funny that eh?

No, there wasn't a vaccine 'ready' - vets had to use the cat flu vaccine because that was the most similar; it wasn't totally effective but better than nothing.

Your post is difficult to read because it's not in paragraphs, but if the rest is as inaccurate as the first few lines ....

But then again I also believe that men really did land on the moon, and that Princess Diana wasn't assassinated on the orders of Prince Philip ....

No body forces you to vaccinate your dogs and hand over your money.

Having seen parvovirus, lepto and distemper first hand and the deaths they cause I will continue to hand over my money and get my dog vaccinated.

I admit to not yet having waded through all you have written here, but I would say I'm at odds with some of what I have picked up on....... for instance regarding vaccination, natural immunity via mum's colostrum should last until around week 5, after which time it gradually drops away until by around 8 weeks, it's felt safe to begin external vaccination with a good chance it will 'take'.   And in the UK, repeat 2 weeks, sometimes 3 depending on the vet, later.   And then booster 12 months on.    These days it's reliably felt boostering every 3 years is enough - apart from the one for Leptospirosis, which does dip over a 12 month period.   Clearly to be sure what's needed, each puppy should be titre tested - but who can really afford to do that ...... I asked and was quoted £60. and it's not totally accurate either.

And actually we DID have epidemics of things like Distemper.   For sure, if everybody stopped vaccinating/boostering these seldom seen often fatal diseases may again become rift.

I also believe that there was no surprise that a Parvo vaccine was available 'ready and waiting'.   There were most probably isolated cases of this starting, which had the scientists working on something to help prevent this.   In fact our second hound, born in 1973, went down with something these days I'd have thought was definitely Parvo.   As it was it was said to be a severe gastroenteritis - he was so sick that as we were moving out to Canada at the time, he went back to his breeder who nursed him back to health so he could join us, 4 months later.

I am with you re over-boostering and mine are both on a 3-yearly regime, as above and as in the past, I probably won't rebooster once they are around 8.   I have always done this with mine in the past although right now, we live in a heavily dog-populated area (with loads of visitors throughout the summer plus their dogs too) so I may have to rethink that.

I don't take all my vets over the years say (and lately even more so!!!) but there has to be trust between vet and client so if you can't trust your vet, find one you can.   I had one for 13 years, and KNEW she'd never advise us to do anything that was centered around anything other than the well-being of my hounds - it certain wasn't about money with her.

Each to their own, but I'm sorry, I can't agree with much of what you have written - which I have now read through.

'we are today a nation of dogs suffering from epilepsy, cancer at epidemic levels, allergies I could go on and on'. No we aren't - we are a nation where medicine has advanced so much that dogs can be diagnosed and treated for these problems rather than be written off as too ill with some unknown disease so we are now far more aware of it. Just like humans, cancer years ago was very often a death sentence but nowadays so much of it can be treated, and amazingly cured.

Even as far back as 1908 doctors were questioning the validity of vaccinations?

And they'd never heard of half of the diseases that exists today, or had a cure for those that did exist. Totally irrelevant comparison.

Other than that, agree 100 % with Jeangenie, every word.

>Even as far back as 1908 doctors were questioning the validity of vaccinations?

And the global eradication of that mass killer smallpox 'in the wild', purely by the use of vaccination, has proved their validity.

the global eradication of that mass killer smallpox 'in the wild', purely by the use of vaccination, has proved their validity.

Also how often does polio occur in this (almost fully vaccinated) country as compared to other (mainly unvaccinated) third world countries?

Exactly. When I was at school in the 60s it wasn't uncommon to see children in leg calipers (think Forrest Gump) because of polio. Thank God that vaccination has removed that terrible prospect for children.

>When I was at school in the 60s it wasn't uncommon to see children in leg calipers (think Forrest Gump) because of polio

Same here.  We had a lad in our class who wore one and walked really awkwardly.  It is wonderful that we don't see this any more.  Funnily enough, even though I don't remember all the names of former schoolmates, I remember this lad because of his caliper.

I clearly remember a friends Border Collie who I adored, and regularly took out, dying of Distemper.  Another disease I'm glad has disappeared.

I'm afraid that although I've tried to read all of the original post I have had to give up before my eyes drop out.  It is so much easier to understand when punctuation and paragraphs make it easier to see clearly.

I along with many people believe in the efficacy of vaccination, but also like many things it can be a two edged sword, and we are right to question the overuse of boosters, timing of primary vaccination in puppies for maximum sero conversion, and minimising risk of over priming an immature immune system.

Certainly the more routine use of in house products like vaccicheck to determine titres would be useful, to avoid unnecessary vaccination.  Certainly I'd like something like that for pups to determine if they were ready (maternal antibodies waned enough) to be vaccinated.

Similar with cheap quick worm counts, to avoid pumping chemicals that are not needed into our dogs.

After all we do not preventatively worm our children or treat them for head lice, unless found to be infested..

>Similar with cheap quick worm counts

You can get that... I've been using these people

've just used Wormcount.com as posted by chaumsong, great service, quick & very helpful on the phone. Posted Monday, worm result next day & lung worm yesterday, to my amazement both boys all clear.

the point is if those prices are per animal, it's cheaper to worm them, and that's why so many people booster routinely as it's cheaper in many cases that titreing.

Yes Barbara, I'm afraid that is why I don't titre test.  I have a houseful of dogs and it would cost a fortune.  Whereas my vet gives me a discount for vaccinations. I do have the parvo annually, some I have done every 3 years. 

When I was at school in the 40s I had a friend in the 'iron lung' as it was called then and another died from diphtheria , I also had my dog die of distemper so hardly  the 'good old days'.
4 years ago my pup had Parvo at 7 weeks, so I always booster my dogs yearly. We have the ability and the knowledge to prevent many illnesses and diseases so to avoid boosters and vaccinations is not something I would ever consider. However this is my way and my choice right or wrong.

Sorry Sue
Not sure if my wording came across wrong.  I only have some done 3 yearly, the ones my vet says are ok.  I too couldn't leave them without the parvo one, it crops up so regularly in my area I could never leave that one to chance.  I remember a workmate losing her young Rottie to Parvo.  She was inconsolable, and he had been vaccinated so she thought he was safe.

I actually remember back (yes I am that old) when my groomer wouldn't take a dog if it hadn't been covered for parvo.  She showed Poodles herself.  I went along to my vet and was given the choice of live vaccine or dead vaccine.  I opted for live, but I'm sure it's the only one they use now. 

>I remember a workmate losing her young Rottie to Parvo.  She was inconsolable, and he had been vaccinated so she thought he was safe.

For some reason rotties as a breed are known to have a poor uptake of the parvo vaccine and need a third injection at about 16 weeks to be certain.

In the USA the protocols used are to have a third vaccine at 16 - 20 weeks of age.

Most people I know have theirs vaccinated at 8, 12, and 16 weeks and start taking pups around, in low dog volume areas a week after the first one.

I had a terrible job convincing them that the 11 1/2 week old pup I sent out had been given the FULL puppy course as far as we were concerned, and not due another one until a year later.

I rather suspect they took her along for a third one anyway.

Hi JeanSW,
My reply was not directed at you it was in reply to the OP so no need to say sorry. I know that you have a lot of experience with dogs so I would never dream of questioning the things you do, I have too much respect for the truly knowledgeable people on this forum.

That's very interesting, Brainless.

I tend to think there are extremists on both sides, in the vaccination debate, and the best practice probably lies in the middle ground somewhere.  By that I mean there are people who don't vaccinate at all and use homeopathic nosodes and think vaccination is toxic...  And then there are people who vaccinate for everything, every year (or arguably even use the Nobivac routine and vaccinate with that every year, which is slightly better). 

My own take on it is puppy jabs, 1st year booster and then no more.  I get ridiculous reminders from my vets every year, I get asked accusingly 'I don't think your dogs are vaccinated...?' every time I go in and see a vet, and more besides.  When I took our current pup in for her 1st jab, I was given a 'free' pipette of Advocate to use (which I didn't - I put it in the cupboard in case I see a need to use it...).  A month later, I got a TEXT MESSAGE reminder, saying '[Puppy] is due an Advocate treatment - make an appointment' or something!!! 

I really am a bit sick of how focussed almost all vets are on: Neutering everything in sight at 6months, regardless of the individual physical and psychological needs of that dog; sticking all kinds of products preventatively on all dogs, without assessing individual risk factors for the parasites concerned; shoving prescription foods and even non-prescription foods (Royal Canin, Hills) at everyone because they make a profit from this and the annual vaccination thing too.  I would love to find an enlightened vet who occupies a more balanced middle ground and whose priority is actually the health of each individual animal, not putting all animals through some kind of one-size-fits-all treatment regime.  But I also am not in the homeopathic, only raw food, no unnatural products camp either. 

I actually don't think it would be true that vets would lose profit if they took a more balanced approach - but they definitely believe they would...

I'm with you , and only do the puppy course, though now prefer to wait to 10 and 12 weeks (which was the protocol to mid 90's), and booster a year later.  I did do three yearly for a while but stopped about 6 years ago, due to more reading.

I also no longer routinely treat for fleas and after puppyhood do no worm more than twice a year, summer full wormer to include tapeworm and Panacur the rest of the time, though I do worm everyone when a bitch is to be mated and when pups all leave.

Well I like to believe in scientific research, there is no disputing the work that has been done by Dr Shultz the research papers and testing has all been accredited by the American University where his studies have been conducted.
His research spans more than 30 years and it has been down to him pushing the drug companies to do more testing that the core vaccines are now licensed for 3 years. This is written on the vaccine data sheet. They know that immunity after a course of vaccines last longer, but choose to only do the necessary research for a 3 year license.
If your vet is giving the core vaccines more frequently than 3 yearly intervals they are actually going against the manufacturers instructions.
From scientific research testing immunity levels it has been proven that the core vaccines last for a least 7 years and in the majority of cases the lifetime of the dog. Just like when we have a course of polio vaccinations it last for our lifetime, humans do not need to be vaccinated every year. Even tetanus is only given every ten years.

People keep referring to booster injections like you can top up immunity like petrol in a car, it doesn't work like that, either the dog is immune to a disease or it is not, and there are some dogs (non reactors) who will never be immune as for some reason vaccinations do not take on them, but unless they are titre tested you would never know.
Parvovirus first mutated from a cat virus, but it is largely believed by experts that this virus was actually introduced from a live virus in the cat vaccination.
It is up to the individual to each do our own research and not blindly take the word of vets who just trot out the information given to them from the drug company or a data sheet. They are after all a business, and as such need to make a profit.
The vaccicheck in house titre should now only cost about £25 so comparable in price to a booster, and some vets are giving discounts for multiple tests.
According to Dr Shultz who was instrumental in developing the system if you get a positive result then your dog is immune and a further vaccination is not necessary, surely better to test than to risk compromising your dogs immune system by over vaccinating. There are now a growing number of vets who are offering vaccicheck including some Companion Care vets situated within Pets at Home stores. There are several natural rearing FB groups who also hold lists of vets who stock the test or the UK distributor can also give details.

Glad more vets are using a cost effective in house titre test.

A pup a friend bred had a bad reaction to it's first vaccinations, yet the vet refused tom use vaccicheck to see if it had take to avoid giving a second.  the owner would not insist so pup was vaccinated 4 weeks after the first to give time for things to settle down, my friend was so cross about it.

It is really taking off now Brainless, mainly down to the spread of information via the internet, and people going and asking for it at the vets.
There are quite a few Boarding Kennels and Day Care facilities that are now accepting titre tested dogs, some do not advertise the fact because of their boarding license restrictions, but some have got the restrictions lifted by Dog Wardens and Local Authorities after copying and sending them details of the scientific data.
This does make life easier for people with dogs with on going conditions such as epilepsy or who have had previous adverse reactions to vaccinations.
Also their a quite a number of vets who are also concerned about over vaccination, many who have always followed different vaccination protocols for their own dogs than those recommended by the manufacturers.
One vet I was speaking to recently had been on a recent update seminar and had as result changed his surgeries recommendations in line with WSAVA guidelines.
But it takes time for changes to take place, as we all know with things like spaying being done very early, and information coming to light that it is not in the best interest of the dog. Collecting information and doing research takes time and is very expensive, and at present most of the studies are done abroad.

Nobody wants to risk epidemics, so I am not anti vaccination at all, but we all have to keep an open mind look at recent information and decide what is in the best interests of our own dogs.
I feel it is important that owners  have access to that information so that they can make informed choices, not just rely on our vets, who in the main have only done courses at vets schools run by drug manufactures and then get updates from the drug reps or data sheets.

Actually maternal antibodies can last up to 16 weeks so most vets are giving the final puppy jab MUCH too early.  Many pups are probably unprotected until they get their one year booster.  Every single vet in our area still does the core vaccines every year.  They MUST know by now that this is damaging our dog's health but does that stop them? No.  The vaccine datasheets now say that they should be given every 3 years but do our vets tell any customers?  No.  What possible reason could there be for this unless they are completely stupid and ignorant or profit driven?

Rabid I am with you on the neutring. When I went for puppy jabs with mine they were desperate to get me signed up for an appointment. Don't think they were pleased when I came out with "some people can own a bitch and not have puppies".

A relative of mine had a male Labrador - she took it to the vets, they said get him neutered at 6 months. They thought the vet knew best so booked him in. After his neutring the vet recommended they put him on adult food!! So they did - when his legs started to bow and the vet just passed it off as growing - they obviously realised they had made a mistake! Neutering a large dog that young, not allowing development then putting it on an adult food!! The poor dog is ruined :( So your right, they need to look at individual circumstances before lumping everything on the neutering bandwagon!

I've heard that shelters and adoption homes also make people sign contracts to have dogs neutered at 6 months regardless of breed. I can understand in the long run neutering is nessesary, but in large breeds - surely not that early?

> xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">I've heard that shelters and adoption homes also make people sign contracts to have dogs neutered at 6 months regardless of breed. I can understand in the long run neutering is nessesary, but in large breeds - surely not that early?

They will now do them at weeks old.

It isn't about what's best for the dog but about population control.

The assumption being that all owners are potentially idiots or irresponsible.

It's not even about preventing accidental litters, as you can do that using Alizin injection or post mating spay, (you never see any advertising for this) it's about not letting a dog become sexually mature, and preventing the owner then deliberately breeding from it.

There is a definite Animal Rights PETA type agenda going on.

With Animal rights they feel that all breeding should stop until every unwanted animal has a home.

PETA want domestic animals phased out completely, by initially the back door (demonizing breeding).

Re feeding advice, Adult food would have been the best option for a neutered dog and in fact may larger breeds are best on Adult foods anyway as the lower protein etc levels discourage too rapid growth.

KathyZ the vaccination at any time from around 8 weeks is only the norm.   The time it's felt MOST puppies will have no maternal immunity left.   Fact is the only way to be totally sure, is to titre test each puppy, as one big breeder I knew out in Canada actually did.   But for me, it's very costly, so I rely on vaccinating by around 10 weeks and then again 2 weeks later (UK) and boostering 12 months on.

Frankly I'd rather accept any risk there is, than have my puppies go down with something like Parvo especially.

I have to say my recent vet didn't suggest I went to 3-yearly boostering, but agreed after I asked.  But they also said Leptospirosis has to be boostered annually as this 'dips' over 12 months.   I'm content to do this.   I did ask about the cost of titre tests - I think I was quoted around £60.   So no thank you.  

I have usually stopped boostering at all by around 7 years, but then we have, up until now, lived in rural areas with very few dogs around.   Not so now plus we have loads of incomers in town during the summer months, with their dogs - so probably bring goodness knows what infections into the area.   I may have to think about this nearer the time these two are up to 7.

Bottom line - if we all stopped vaccinating/boostering our animals, those sometimes fatal diseases we don't see much any more, may well become rife.

Add -    Reading back, it's interesting I should have been quoted £60 for titre testing (and was told it's not always reliable in any case) when it's available at £25?   As this is close on the cost of boostering, I may have to investigate this further.

Frankly I'd rather accept any risk there is, than have my puppies go down with something like Parvo especially.

Ditto. I have only ever had one dog in my life that has been sensitive to vaccines (as in being in pain after each injection, nothing worse, and hence we stopped boostering her after the first 2 years) but I have instead had an 8 week old puppy that was bought in from a wellknown show breeder, and that pup came complete with distemper. Clearly no immunity from the mother there. The breeder did not vaccinate her adults! My pup got through it but developed epilepsy due to damage to the brain by the distemper (she was not the only one in the litter to get distemper either, and this was proved by lab tests) and eventually died on her first birthday.

A few years earlier I'd had a new pup, that was vaccinated as normal, and my next door neighbour had a new pup the same age -that she claimed she could not afford to vaccinate until she had saved some money up. Her pup died from parvo aged 12 weeks (unvaccinated), mine lived until old age.

The cheaper in house titre test is called Vaccicheck, you can phone round a few vets in your area to see if they stock it. Some companion care vets (Inside Pets at home) are now offering in but not all.

Below is a link to the UK distributor, who can supply to your vet, or will probably be able to tell you which vets in your area stock it.

http://www.woodleyequipment.com/uk-veterinary/immunology/immunocomb-vaccicheck-antibody-test-kit-464-164-1271.php

According to Dr Shultz if you get a positive result then your dog is immune, no need to worry about levels as they change depending on if the immune system has been challenged in which case levels will be higher.
If your dog is immune to the disease then it is never going to catch it, a further booster will not help in anyway, in fact it can make the dog more susceptible to the disease or others as over vaccination compromises the immune system and weakens the dogs natural immune defence.

Straight from the horses mouth !

Interview with Dr Ronald Shultz the worlds leading expert in the field

Warning this is rather long, but well worth viewing, particularly his comments regarding his own dogs at the end.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Xd5ghnlJ4

I think there's a huge difference to those of us who disagree with unnecessary boosters and those who don't believe in vaccination full stop.

My view is that vaccination has benefits and risks and we need to maximise the benefits as at the same time minimising the risks.

With puppies this would seem sensible. http://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/taking-the-risk-out-of-puppy-shots/

I booster a year after the puppy course as done in the UK, and do not now (for past 7 years) vaccinate again after this.