>I really don't think that dogs can be forced to work in agility or flyball, they seem to enjoy the action, correct me if I am wrong but a dog that is so willing to "go for it" is not forced

Dogs cannot be forced to fight either and there are certainly dogs who like fighting but it is still wrong.

">there are certainly dogs who like fighting but it is still wrong.

Quite.

Sadly this is the trait selected for with dogs that were/are bred fro fighting.

We as human beings choose to select for certain physical and mental traits.

We have not only exaggerated some physical features where they compromise the animals welfare but mental ones also.

"And let's face it, we all like to have a peek through the keyhole and be scandalised..."

Not quite quoting, but it was words to that effect, by a red haired woman to the man who was fronting the film.

The red haired woman is the director/producer, Penny Woolcock, the person responsible for this film. She is (according to BAFTA at least) a highly respected writer and director, and you can hear her take on ethics and principles of making a documentary here http://guru.bafta.org/penny-woolcock-risk-and-range-documentary

This flies in the face of her approach to making "Going to the Dogs." You might like to look at her FB page to see how she dismisses all criticism of her documentary ("14,691 people who haven't seen the film"), and to read some of the interviews she has given since to The Independent, The Guardian and others (see , in which she comments that "the dogs were lovely," they were "largely well cared for" and she wasn't "scared of them at all."  It's impossible to reconcile these statements with the film footage of a dog shown literally racing for its life tied to a treadmill going so fast its legs are just a blur, and the fact that these dogs never see a vet. They just carry on training and fighting until they are maimed or killed in the ring.

Penny Woolcock then turns to speculating that the difference between shooting pheasants and dog fighting is that first being acceptable only because it is traditionally the sport of the wealthy and privileged, whereas dog fighting is associated with poor, disadvantaged communities. This after one of the contributors boasts that his dog took 27 minutes to kill its opponent (the "Russian dog").

Quite apart from the breathtaking smugness and hypocrisy of the woman (it's no good the police asking her anything, apparently, because she doesn't know and doesn't want to know any of the participants appearing in the film--contrast this to her comments in the BAFTA interview), her "research" is utterly worthless in terms of raising public awareness of dog fighting in order to stop it.

Please take a minute to give feedback to Channel 4 at http://www.channel4.com/4viewers/contact-us. You can also send in your complaint to Ofcom at https://stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/tell-us/specific-programme-epg

> The difference is that the sports you mention don't have the intention of causing suffering, unlike dog-fighting where the whole purpose is to cause injury or death.

Very true.  I just wanted to illustrate that calling something a sport does not exclude suffering.

> I really don't think that dogs can be forced to work in agility or flyball, they seem to enjoy the action, correct me if I am wrong but a dog that is so willing to "go for it" is not forced

My earlier example shows that they very much can.  That collie was literally pushed through the weaves, over and over, by hand, for 2.5 hours.  The trainer said she worked her through her "stubborn patch" - that would be when she was trying very hard to tell her owner that she had really had enough - and continued until the dog was weaving every time.  So yes, they can be forced and often are.  She tried to do the same thing with Remy - I refused for months until eventually I got so fed up, I handed her the lead and told her to go for it.  3 poles in, he shut down and wouldn't move.  Wouldn't take treats, wouldn't do anything, wouldn't work again for the remainder of the class.  I'd like to think it taught her something about training different dogs (Remy being a dobe and her breed being collies) but I doubt it.

I went to one class where the method for teaching the A-frame was to have one person either side of the dog holding a lead, then running at the frame - at full height - and dragging the dog over it, whether they wanted to do it or not.

Flyball is less forceable but the dogs can still suffer - so many are not taught an off switch to keep them game for it (totally unnecessary), and they just end up permanently stressed and completely wired.

i would never force my dogs into something they did not enjoy. People who do this are no better then the people who fight dogs.

There is a difference because being made to do something they simply do not enjoy, although bad, is nowhere near as bad as being made to fight to the death. But quite apart from that, if you try to force a dog to do something it does not enjoy, in particular with showing, it will not win as it will be too apparent. The top winners have that extra sparkle they get from being happy and having fun.

collie was literally pushed through the weaves, over and over, by hand, for 2.5 hours.

The applied 'method' had almost zero learning effect 'cause of the enormous amount of amiguous stimuli involved.

The trainer said she worked her through her "stubborn patch" -

Not a really good excuse for confusing the dog in every way.
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collie was literally pushed through the weaves, over and over, by hand, for 2.5 hours.

The applied 'method' had almost zero learning effect 'cause of the enormous amount of amiguous stimuli involved.

The trainer said she worked her through her "stubborn patch" -

Not a really good excuse for confusing the dog in every way.

Is this sort of thing the norm in agility?
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Thankfully I've not seen it as the norm, it's a good example of how they can be forced to do it though.  But it varies by class - I've seen good, awful and mediocre.  And she did weave indeed - that little dog did perfect weaves every single time, with gusto, most likely because she knew damn well she'd be in trouble if she didn't.

Thankfully I've not seen it as the norm, it's a good example of how they can be forced to do it though.  But it varies by class - I've seen good, awful and mediocre.

OK, thanks.
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2 of our dogs do Agility.They are Bull breeds and you wouldnt expect to see this breed taking part.They love it no one forces them, they do it because they find it great fun.

That doesn't surprise me as Agility is very popular with Amstaff owners in the USA