Hi All,

I have been waiting for my visit from the assured breeder scheme assessors since January. I 've had two emails in the last 3 months to say an assessor has been assigned to me and will contact to arrange a visit but nothing.

The problem is I have a litter due in two weeks and I really don't want a visit when I have pups if they have been visiting other breeders premises....does anyone share this worry?

My renewal is was due to be paid at the end of last month but I feel it is a cheek if they want me to pay the £30 but won't let me register my litter as an assured breeder until I have had the visit that they just cannot get around to doing!

I have contacted the KC and told them I have a litter due and have had no visit yet and they have told me to pay my annual fee,register my litter as normal and the litter details will then be sent to the London office pending a review by them and they will decide if I can then place my litter under the assured breeder scheme........the fact I have waited 6 months so far just for a visit I cannot see them getting around to it until after the pups have left!!

Sorry to rant,just so p*ssed off with the KC......I feel like they want my annual fee,which is fine, if I can stay and assured breeder but they won't allow this without a visit.

I feel like pulling out of the scheme to be honest which is a shame as I have had much more serious puppy enquiries from fussier people (which I welcome) since being in the scheme.

Has anyone else had this hassle.....is it worth me still hoping they will renew it without visiting as I really don't want an assessor in with my litter when she has been seeing a lot of others and could bring in infection,

Appreciate any experiences and thoughts

Ali

Well that's better than me, I have emailed them 4 times since 28th December, the second was to say I had mated my bitch, pups due early March (as it happened she absorbed, but they  didn't know that), yet not even had a reply.

Had two renewal reminders though!!!

My membership expired on 31st May, and I have not renewed :(

I notice from the KC litter register that they are still registering litters under the scheme, you're not just getting a tick with date of your visit.  Yet again they have taken on too much too soon.  I have just mated a bitch and will email them.  I have previously had a visit with an excellent report so do question why they have to come back!
I have renewed my membership for this year but will continually monitor the situation...

Thankyou both,

It's so frustrating .....like you Brainless my membership expired 31st May,litter due in under 2 weeks and still nothing yet they want my renewal money!

There is no way an assessor is trapsing around my puppies and kennels when she has been on other breeders premises.....I wouldn't sleep for worry of infection.

I will ring them again and if they wont renew this time without a visit I will have to pull out. I think you are so right and they have taken on too much and cannot cope.

Sorry about your litter Brainless :-(

Thanks again

Ali

I'm sorry for you given you have a litter due - and agree that there's no way I'd want anybody walking in, especially early on much as you can insist they remove shoes, and don't touch, or get near these puppies!!   Anybody should appreciate that.

I have always felt this is more about INCOME as far as the KC is concerned than anything else.   Sometimes I'm really glad I've retired, no longer breeding or showing and out of all this!!!

I have always felt this is more about INCOME as far as the KC is concerned than anything else.

At a tenner a year for many years up until now they will have lost quite a lot of money on the scheme and will still only just break even once the full amount is charged.

>I notice from the KC litter register that they are still registering litters under the schem

I know quite a few breeders in my breed that have had their visits yet only one ahs a tick, so I think the list is very out of date, not updated automatically.

I'm still listed (though it's only 4 days since my membership expired).

I don't think anyone has actually been taken off - friends of mine who quit in the New Year are still on there.  They have actually asked to be removed!

I joined the scheme in the latter half of last year as I was planning a litter at the start of this year.  When the new rules came in I emailed the KC to let them know that I had mated my bitch in December and was therefore hoping for my litter in February.  I received an email from them saying my regional breed advisor would phone me to arrange a visit.  I heard nothing further from them.  I already had a full list so did not need the scheme but wanted to support the initiative.  I registered the litter online and heard nothing.  After several phone calls I was informed that I would need to resign from the scheme in order to register my puppies at all!  I was also told that the minimum time it would take to process my resignation was a few days after they had received my resignation email.  In spite of paying to support the scheme, at no time was I put on the list of Assured Breeders.  This despite the fact that one other breeder who resigned for the same reason is still on the KC assured Breeder list!  As a result when I finally got the puppies documents I had to pay to post them to their new owners.  I informed my buyers of the problems that I was having because I felt it looked like I was badly organised at best.  I am still pretty annoyed about it to be honest!

>after several phone calls I was informed that I would need to resign from the scheme in order to register my puppies at all!

That is totally appalling although not surprising to me since I was told I would need to resign at one point due to problems when trying to register pups with a foreign stud. They were not able to check one of his health tests and told me I couldn't register the litter as an assured breeder. In the end they did register the litter for me provided I put it in writing to the puppy buyers that the puppies had not been tested. In the end I agreed to do this just to get my pups registered.

It seems very strange to me that they cannot make exceptions or over ride the need for a visit, after all it is their scheme.I thought they wanted to get more members not get rid of the ones they had.  I hope they gave you a refund of your fee?

I mated my bitch in November and phoned to make an appt as soon as I received the letter.  I was told to expect a visit but heard nothing.  A friend later told me that they had 'moved the goalposts' on the registrations as they were inundated with requests.  All bitches mated after 1st Jan were due a visit - obviously still not happening....

No refund of my fee yet and yes, my stud was an import too.  We have quite a small gene pool in my breed so using a health tested import to produce an outcross litter is surely to be encouraged!  It is outrageous that it is easier to register a poorly planned litter with no health tests than a carefully researched, years in the planning, health tested litter. Grrrrrr!

I was also in this position and contacted the KC regarding an impending litter. I received a standard e mail back saying there was a long queue etc but a breeder assessor had been allocated. I sent more e mails saying it was urgent etc. and asking what would happen to my registrations, and my renewal was due too.

I did have to be proactive about this.

When the breeder assessor contacted me, I expressed my concerns as my litter had already been born. She then rang me and assured me that once we had a visit arranged she would ensure all the registrations went through ok. Because I had a litter, I wasn't keen for her to come after visiting other places so she agreed to visit first at 9am before going anywhere else.

I did have to ring the KC several times to get the registrations sorted (but that's another story).

I have now had the visit and the breeder assessor told me there is a delay on reports and also on green ticks going on website. The actual visit was pleasant and positive, not intrusive as others have mentioned. They have also taken on new assessors but they are still being trained and she was very apologetic regarding the way things were done at KC (letters before Christmas, lack of assessors, etc)

As ever the KC being what they are and run the way it is run is playing 'catch up'.

Well my friend was visited a year ago, was not happy with a couple of points raised in visit, so promised another visit. 

She now has a 4 week old litter and on ringing yet again, was told it's not their fault she didn't pass, the first visit.  She has never been told she didn't pass, only that it would be reviewed, and they have continued taking her subs.

We are talking about things that are a matter of opinion.

Like the assessor saying an hours exercise was insufficient, (kennel club breed description even says up to an hour) dogs barking  and jumping up when a neighbours dogs were jumping at the kitchen window, deemed not well enough trained. We are talking a stud male with an in season bitch in the house.

No outside water bowls, dogs aren't kept outdoors, and she doesn't want to encourage vermin, she lives on a country estate.

The assessor did not like the fact she took pups upstairs at night!!!  she didn't have pup on the ground at the time.

I had a visit on 9th May, everything seemed to go fine, and told verbally I passed, but still no tick on my page.   How many KC officials does it take to do a tick....!

Jo

She now has a 4 week old litter and on ringing yet again, was told it's not their fault she didn't pass, the first visit.  She has never been told she didn't pass, only that it would be reviewed, and they have continued taking her subs.

This is appalling, surely the very least you should expect is to know whether you've passed or failed!  Criteria for passing or failing should be standardised, otherwise it's just pot luck, and nothing to do with how good a breeder you are.

It very much sounds to me that the KC have set this up piecemeal, no-one knows what anyone else is doing, and you're lucky if the person doing the inspection knows what they are doing!

As has been written - "how many people does it take to put a tick on a website?"

All this smacks of a reactionary set up, not properly planned at all.   How is anyone to have faith in this scheme if the people running it can't get their act together?

And to think, all it would have taken to regain credibility of the KC, would have been to insist on health testing of parents being done, with good results, before registering a litter, and refusing to register large numbers of puppies from the same individuals.

I'm still dumbstruck by my perusing of the breed records supplement and the enormous numbers of puppies and litters registered by the same individuals and their families (same surname and address) in just one quarter.  Of course, that would have reduced income for the KC, but should they really be associated with making money from commercial puppy breeders?

Well my own dogs are not particularly well trained at home and will jump up at people and bark that is for sure but i have 6 large Terriers ( well will have when the pup grows up ).
On the other hand I could have them all contained in kennels and you would not know whether they were trained or not.
This does not in any way reflect on me as a breeder and how I handle puppy buyers and what I urge them to do or advise.
Some of the things mentioned are the sort of thing that put people off. My dogs live indoors and only very occasionally I do put a bowl outside but they always have access to a well filled bowl indoors. What is the problem with that?

Well I for one wouldn't want to leave a bowl of water out for mine.

There are far too many slugs and snails about in my garden, only an hour ago I cleared 1 fat slug and 3 snails off my plants, so they don't necessarily only come out at night to feast!

Seems the assessor owns a toy breed.

Well I know many are complaining about lack of visit but I was phoned this morning and asked if I would consent to a visit tomorrow. I said yes but frankly this could not be at a worse time. My eldest son has moved back home following his divorce and all his furniture,'stuff', musical instruments and rubbish ++ is piled up all over the house. Many rooms are inaccessible.We have no less than three pianos , including a grand ,occupying floor space normally furnished with dogs. They are coping, I'm not. He'll be moving out in a couple of weeks but until then our home is more like that of Steptoe and Son -those of you who remember the series can imagine.
Just hope they are understanding !

>My eldest son has moved back home following his divorce and all his furniture,'stuff', musical instruments and rubbish ++ is piled up all over the house. Many rooms are inaccessible

Hehe that's just like us, my daughter and other half moved in nearly 18 months ago, then the house they were going for fell through, and finally they bought theirs in the new year, but are taking then opportunity to do a total refurbishment down to the brickwork, removing walls etc.

The dogs are loving it, and it has given us the opportunity to have live in dog sitters, and actually have a holiday. :)

The house does look like one of those hoarders houses, minus the dirt and rubbish.

>Well I know many are complaining about lack of visit but I was phoned this morning and asked if I would consent to a visit tomorrow.

Just wondering, have you got puppies due or here?

Reply to Smithy

No pups but perhaps a litter in July.
I would have preferred a litter to be  around at time of visit and would not be worried about delays in registration.

First Aid box seems to have disappeared under piles son's debris.
The lady who phoned is doing a visit in a neighbouring village and it sorta makes sense to 'do' us both on the same day.

And Yes, Brainless, our house looks like a hoarder's den at the moment.When I said three pianos, I forgot to mention his digital one too We've got sofas, chairs and beds all over the place and sacks of 'stuff'. What fun !

We've just had our Appeals Visit, as we disputed the original assessors finding and, well, that is 2 hours of my life I will not get back.

What a waste of time, We knew we'd failed the minute he walked through the door. He had no interest in what we had to say, he just kept spouting off about Guidelines, but couldn't tell us what the Guidelines were.We pushed and pushed for answers but The best he could come up with when put on the spot was......... Wait for it.......The house is dusty, the dog flaps were dirty and the fence around the turn out pen is tired !!!!!  Having puppies with Mum in the living room was not suitable, they should be in a separate room away from the hustle and bustle of daily living, and the only other thing was that he wanted us to take the dogs out 5 times a day, or fill the garden with activity centres and toys to enrich their lives,  I asked if he had any experience of  Basset Hounds and he said NO, which was bloody obvious, as I have never known any of my Bassets to play fetch, they have toys which are played with for 5 mins before being discarded never to be touched again, all they like to do is go off into the bushes for a snoot about, chase each other around for a bit then flop out in the sun...He then said that the KC recommendations on health testing are to be done, but when pointed out that they are only recommendations so not compulsory, he said they want them done anyway. He couldn't see that that was slightly hypocritical of the KC as they hadn't made them compulsory but you had to get them done anyway, unless you had a very compelling reason, I also informed him that a  Surgeon at Cambridge Vet School/Hospital, who see's animals with hip and elbow dysplacia on a daily basis, had also told us, when we had had to take one of our dogs up as he was limping, that the Xrays were a waste of time and money where Basset Hounds are concerned as the XRays cannot detect minor sublties in the elbows. His response to this, which I admit left me speechless was, That obviously the person at Cambridge was not an expert. So the conclusion is that despite an experts say so that they are not necessary and a waste of time and money, they are not compulsory and as I pointed out only 1 breeder who is not even on the ABS has had these tests done in the past 4 years goes to show that no one in Bassets thinks they need doing, is not compelling enough.

I'd lost the will to live by this time, so politely asked him to leave.

My friend visited last year in July is finally getting her 'appeals' visit on the 26th June (pups ready to go on 30th), has been told they will allow her to register the pups at least..

>Having puppies with Mum in the living room was not suitable, they should be in a separate room away from the hustle and bustle of daily living,

Well this sounds as if puppy farmers would pass then!  No hustle and bustle of daily living for their puppies :(

Surely hustle and bustle of daily living is exactly what puppies need if they are to grow up into well socialilsed adults who enjoy living with the family?

>He had no interest in what we had to say, he just kept spouting off about Guidelines, but couldn't tell us what the Guidelines were.

Regarding the GUIDELINES,  why is it that they aren't available for all breeders and puppy buyers to read and work to?  The whole scheme is beginning to sound like something from Solzhenitsyn :(

>>Having puppies with Mum in the living room was not suitable, they should be in a separate room away from the hustle and bustle of daily living,<br />Well this sounds as if puppy farmers would pass then!  No hustle and bustle of daily living for their puppies :-(<br />

Sounds similar tot eh issues my friend has, she ahs two lively young children, so it's very bustly, and preferred to take her litter upstairs at night, and was told that was wrong.

Puppy buyers have so far been delighted with bomb proof very well socialised pups.

She too was told because her dogs were bouncy they were under exercised and under tried, despite the KC description for exercise for the breed says up to an hour, she was told and hour to 1 1/2 hours was not enough!!!

It almost seems they want the ABS to be for commercial breeders with good hygiene and accommodation standards who health test, not eh hobby breed devote, as nowhere does the ABS cover the aim of the 'quality' of puppies produced.

So why don't they just come out and say they don't want hobby breed enthusiasts in their scheme.

At least Tyddhound you gave them every chance. I can fully understand how you feel.  I was the first person in my breed to join the ABS and encouraged others to do so. However following my first Adviser visit my queries were never replied to. In the meantime I have written several emails or letters to the KC on a variety of subjects and again not one was replied to. In my one conversation with a "gentleman" from the ABS he was rude and autocratic. Along with a number of others in my breed I have stopped my subscription and sent in my note of resignation. The list of ABS members in the breed has suddenly fallen to about half of what it was a year ago and those who have left have not done so because they are retiring from breeding the occasional litter.

Brainless you hit the nail on the head with " as nowhere does the ABS cover the aim of the 'quality' of puppies produced". The small production breeders seem to be all mistaken in thinking that's what the ABS should be about.

I fully agree with what Sheila Atter wrote in dog World: http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/107587

and especially here: http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/107223
and here: http://www.dogworld.co.uk/product.php/106867

"Those of us who joined the scheme in response to the plea that while we might not need the ABS, the ABS needed us, are totally disillusioned. We have given the ABS its credibility. Now we see our experience count for nothing and are instead lumped with Competent Roofers, Pavement Testing Services and Ready Mixed Concrete which all have similar UKAS accreditation. While we thought that the ABS was a means of showing our commitment to the highest possible standards - using our experience to breed quality puppies, taking our time to choose lifelong homes, deciding when to vaccinate - we now know that it is all about following a formula: issuing guides on grooming, nutrition, breed traits, rather than taking the time to demonstrate how to groom, being on the end of the phone to discuss feeding problems, and actually having chatted at length about the breed's foibles way before agreeing to add people to our waiting list.
  This, not the price rise or the increase in inspections, is why so many are disillusioned with the ABS. There is a very fundamental difference in expectation between the users of the scheme and the scheme itself. The KC may be proud of its UKAS accreditation, but cannot be surprised if the hobby breeder now walks away from a scheme that holds nothing for them. "

i cant open the links?

links work perfectly for me. Sheila Atter certainly writes exactly what I have been thinking on the subject of the ABS.

Links work fine from a compute using internet explorer and Firefox.  I know that some mobile devises sometimes can't connect to some things???  So my daughter says, I wouldn't know as my phone is telephone and text messages only.

Not sure what was wrong but they open now for me! having read the articles I too feel that Sheila has hit the nail on the head. The scheme is no longer (if it ever was) for people like us who want to produce exceptional puppies. It is now geared more to a production line of pups being churned out. There is no place in the scheme now for the bespoke premium product which is what our puppies are. I too did not renew when my membership came to an end as I can no longer see any advantage to remaining a member.

I think by the end of the year the Kennel club will get a big shock, as I think many people will just allow their membership to lapse and not bother with an 'official' resignation.

Already dog World reported how few new members have joined over recent months.

Reading some of this I too am thinking I will allow membership to run until the end of my current time. I had my inspection and have my certificate but comparing mine to some of the stuff mentioned here it would seem that I was applying for a different scheme.

I have seen a couple of peoples reports and wondered why these blank reports are not available, so that people knew what they were being marked for, and if they didn't like the guidelines being marked for could decide not to bother in the first place.

But then it does seem that some assessors are interpreting the guidelines in some very strange ways.

In our breed, an East Midlands KC Assured breeder is making a mockery of the scheme by proudly declaring that he's KC Assured (with the relevant number) and, in the same advert, then promoting his unregistered, non health tested blue merle puppies for £650 (the tricolours are £550). We're a breed where you can pay anything from £50 a pup up to £650 or so for KC Reg Health tested pups with health tested parents. When I queried why they were so expensive, he said because "Blue merles are rare!". Well, they're not rare in this breed and to have a KC Assured Breeder, who quite frankly is a glorified puppy farmer as he's churning out litter after litter (usually several litters on the go at the same time), behaving in this way is really galling.

I thought you had to register everything that was a KC ( I assume of course ISDS would count for collies, beign the original/primary register for them) breed if you are an ABS breeder, and not allowed to promote crosses under the scheme though not prevented from breeding them?

>I thought you had to register everything that was a KC

I think that is a requirement but  has anyone reported this breeder to the KC? If no-one tells them how would they know? they dont have enough staff  working on the visits as it is so I doubt they have anyone scanning every dog advert of every breed to make sure no-ones breaking the rules. to the OP I suggest you contact the cKC and let them know your concerns.

>has anyone reported this breeder to the KC?

Yes I think this is vital, it's not the fault of any scheme if rules are broken unless reported no-one will know.

Barbara, as they're not KC reg I assume they're Working Sheepdogs rather than Border Collies?

As the KC accept ISDS registration, if they are true working sheepdogs then they I assume can use their KC ABS credentials, but if they are unregistered stock I don't think they are supposed to use the ABS to sell/advertise them???

Best thing is to report to KC anyway, and see if they can clarify.

After all if they are not KC registered they won't get ABS wallets and feedback forms for the new owners.  The feedback forms are supposed to be a vital part of monitoring in addition, and between visits.

Just received and completed a feedback survey on the ABS from the Kennel Club.  Now I don't normally enjoy filling in surveys but this one ...........................!,

I too agree with Sheila Atter's articles and congratulated her when she wrote them.

I have, however, decided to remain in the scheme, and as I reported above had a realistic assessment, with all my fears dispelled by a very reasonable and sensible Assessor.

I think that probably sometime in the future all breeders will need to be 'accredited' in some way, and while I agree with all of you when you say the UKAS accreditation is not ideal, it is what the KC are working with right now, and it is all there is. I am not defending them but can fully see why they had to 'react' to publicity. At least they are doing more visits now.

It still does not assess conditions, effort, matching pairs, breed knowledge, going the extra mile etc. etc. Hopefully this will develop in the future.

More and more people seem to be anti-dog and with the new dog laws that came into effect in May this year, I feel it is important to try and show you are doing your best.

The KC let me down badly.  I didn't get a phone call never mind a visit!  I will wait till they get their act together before I rejoin!

>The KC let me down badly.  I didn't get a phone call never mind a visit!  I will wait till they get their act together before I rejoin!

I feel the same, won't re-join unless things really improve.

Even though it will cost me more ( there is a joining fee as well as new members having to pay £60 from the start I believe???).

As usual we are expected to jump through hoops produce lost of records and advice, and what service do we receive back from the KC.  What would happen if we treated our puppy buyers the way we are treated?

It is £30.00 for the first year rising to £60.00 by the 3rd year.  It seems to me that most are moaning about something or nothing. I got 3 days notice had to email my puppy pack and contract to them ASAP. I asked to visited back in February, they came in May.  I have nothing to hide and the said everything was good.

It seems to depend on who visits you, some have some strange and limited ideas, thinking there is only one right way.

Was just on KC website and needed to contact them re non appearance of eye test for one of mien eye tested at Crufts in March, used their health and breeder services email, and took the opportunity to click on their email link for the ABS, and attached my previous correspondence. 

Got an automated reply and realise that in my emails to them the  letter 'g' in the email address (for org.) was missing, but as I didn't get 'bounces' for a non existent email address I had not noticed.

Still haven't changed my mind about resigning though due to so much feedback I have had re nit picking visits, not getting pups registered in time, etc.