hi,everyone!I just wondered if anyone has any ideas to try to stop my 3 year old collie bitch bossing the other two?(aged 3,and 5)Its mainly evident on walks,she ll keep the others back,sometimes charging and snapping,which is why they generally stay back!Is it just a perverted herding instinct?.Its odd because she is a real scaredy cat otherwise.I resort to putting her back on lead so the other two can enjoy their walk!Shes better if i give her a ball,focuses on me throwing it,and not the other two,if another dog gets it she just pinches it! she also growls and grumbles at the other two sometimes,at home,for instance,if she is sitting next to me,and the younger bitch comes and sits there too,then she ll move away!
I have tried "sending her on" when she faces them down,but she just looks at me gone out!I can "manage"this,but itd be nice to stop it!

> she is a real scaredy cat otherwise

This here is the crucial bit of information!  This is bullying type behaviour, not bossiness.  It can become very intense in collies.  And bullying, just as in people, is based in insecurity and fear: trying to hide these things and trying to control others.  As a need to control a situation can also be a big collie thing that can make it worse.  I'm working through similar behaviour with Willow, who will badger the faces of some of my dogs on a walk to the nth degree and it drives us all insane.  It looks like she's just playing if there's no-one else around, but bring in a dog from outside the pack, which stresses her, and the behaviour intensifies instantly and goes far beyond anything I can do to stop it at present (she'd had bad experience with dogs, on top of not being socialised properly before I got her).  Phoebe too can be a bully indoors, but hers comes out more in guarding, especially when toys are involved.  If the others are playing though she will sometimes go and try to stop them by barking or standing over them growling.  All of which I've also worked through with my collie cross!

Your girl does sound a fair bit worse though.  And once these guys are in a habit, it can be serious work to stop it.  You'll need to start piling on the rewards - anything and everything, no matter how small, that isn't bullying in some way, reward it.  And I mean everything - and nothing counts!  By that I mean if one walks past her at home and she doesn't do anything, reward it.  Nothing is a very rewardable behaviour for these dogs!  That's what I did with Phoebe to start with - she'd gotten to a point that any time Linc came upstairs, she would fly at him and chase him back down (he's not one for walking away if a dog is guarding a chew, won't take it, but won't bog off and she has never forgotten it).  So I started rewarding her any time he was near and she did nothing.  Now she'll ignore him if he comes upstairs, and every now and then, I catch her sniffing a bit of him with her little fluffy-happy-ears on and her tail swishing gently.  Only when he's not looking though :-P

Out and about is much harder; but I would start on lead.  Your aim needs to be to not give her a chance to do the bullying again, which is going to be the hardest bit because of habit and speed!  So on-lead will give you a good chance.  If need be, alternate having her on and the others on so she can still get a run.  Then the same rules apply: anything that isn't bullying gets rewarded, and heavily.  Work on keeping her attention and reward her for giving it; anytime she looks away from the others is an excellent choice as she'll start to choose to look away rather than focus on them.

One thing I ended up doing with Willow was to use the others to train her; not sure how well it would work for you but worth mentioning.  She will lay down up ahead, waiting for one of them to reach her so she can pounce and start badgering the hell out of them.  They got wise to this pretty quickly but as she'd chase if they ran, started hesitating, not knowing what to do.  So I took advantage of it.  As soon as I saw them slow down, I called them back, and threw a couple of treats on the ground beside me for them.  That gave me a chance to move ahead of them and move her on with hand signals (hands spread apart as a sort of block to begin with, which has now become one open palm which means 'turn around and go').  I rewarded her for doing it.  They quickly learned to turn round and come to me when they spotted her, and she quickly learned that she wasn't going to get to badger.  Now, they do it all themselves: they stop, she moves on, they continue and it's all peaceful.

Badgering while running around is still an issue so she still goes on lead a lot; while she's on I am still mostly rewarding her for looking away from them and at me.  If I keep her on at the start of the walk for 5 minutes and do that, I can then let her off and control her.  It used to be 10-15 minutes, so she is improving.  Other dogs are still a trigger but we don't see many so that's taking longer to sort.

A good 'leave' can help too, I had to teach her that one specifically for Paige when she was put on lead-walks only because I didn't have any room for maneuvre for the sending on thing - just remember to keep it light and happy as any stress added will intensify the bullying.  This is primarily what I did with the cross, River - she was raised in her first year to be a bully by her first owners who found it funny, so I've had my work cut out with her.  What I focused on with her was simply calling her away when I could see she was about to start (hers has always surfaced when other dogs are playing), with real gusto, really squeaky/happy voice and making myself exciting then really piling on the rewards when she did come away.  It took a little while but it's worked - she hasn't tried in a long, long time and the worst she'll do now is just sit and bark at them, and I can call her away from doing that no problem.

Just one other note: medical problems may be a factor.  I didn't know until last year but River has a chronic prolapsed disc, which is pressing on nerve roots causing sciatica-type pain as well as achiness; but unless you know what you're looking for in her gait, you'd never know it was a problem.  It wasn't triggered by an accident, it's just one of those things.  The first symptom I saw was her refusing to do contact obstacles at agility once or twice - from there we found HD, then when that didn't improve, an MRI found the disc.  She also has congenital narrowing of the canals through which those nerve roots run so they're under pressure from that too.  All of which was having a huge impact on her tolerance levels - with acupuncture, controlled exercise and pain relief, her bullying improved immensely.  Phoebe has a longstanding shoulder injury (ran into an iron bench 2 years ago) which I suspect may be exacerbating things, again you wouldn't know it was there unless you knew it was there if that makes sense!  I only realised it was still an issue last time I clipped her off, as the vibration on that side was making her flinch and pull away.  I'm trying different natural painkillers for now before we brave the vets (Phoebe has many phobias not the least of which is the car, so the vet is only done when absolutely unavoidable).

Thankyou nikita,all of what you say makes perfect sense,and you describe gwen to a "tee"!I always told her she was a bully!apart from the lead,I really hadnt got a clue how best to deal with this,so Im really grateful to you.Incidently,the odd time Ive had her off lead and the other two on,she walks backwards,watching me(as if she expects a ball to be thrown!)(sigh!) I love the idea of rewarding the other two for hanging back,and then moving her on.
Until i started separating them,when I turned the hoover on,she d fly  out and bite poor jess!
Thankyou so much for taking the time to answer my query,and youve definately given me something to work on,I really apreciate it.

Interesting and informative reply Nikita. Well done :)

Bless her, she does sound like a stressy girl.  If that generally is an issue, melatonin is very good for it - it's been a godsend for Phoebe.  No sedation, no side effects, just lowers stress.

oh,Ive actually got some of that!I bought it to help me sleep.She is a bag of nerves!I had to quit training classes with her,she just wasnt happy-even from a pup,she d sleep through the class,having to be woken for every exercise-looking back,I reckon it was her form of self defence-much as my daughter used to go to sleep through her dad yelling at me (ex,thank god),I used to think-how can she sleep through that?-but it was her way of coping.  
She did the puppy class,and had three goes at my classes bronze(not same as good citizen)and although she passed everything,she failed on the play retrieve-you had to get your dog playing,then throw the toy a little way for the dog to bring back.I just couldnt get her to play!.  The trainer said I wasnt making enough effort,but I practically turned myself inside out,and she d just try and hide under my legs.So i knew Id not get on to the next class,and as she clearly wasnt happy,i decided to give up.The other two love working,but if I do any bits with them round the house,she goes up the garden and hides!Ive never had a collie that didnt love to work!
However,apart from the bullying,shes a really good girl,brilliant recall,doesnt cause any problems with strange dogs(leaves that to the others!)and ok in every other respect,and loves her cuddles.Spose I shouldve twigged,when she lunged at Jess to try and steal her bone,when she was about 4 months old-didnt get it,Jess
did the quickest chair exit youve ever seen,and went behind it with her bone!
Could you tell me what melatonin,or dosage,you use for Phoebe,please?

Agree with you admin,it was a brilliant answer! Thanks,Nikita!

The standard for a collie would be 3mg, up to three times a day for chronic stress.  Phoebe gets double that (on vet advice) but she is the most stressed dog I've ever met - phobias and associations mean that just being on a lead is scary as hell for her so she can't cope with more than two walks a week at the most and she has multiple noise phobias that can affect her at home too.  Most dogs respond at a lower dose though.  Do check what's in yours - some versions have added stuff that might not be good (B vits are ok) for dogs.  I use the Swanson brand from Health Monthly (you have to ring to order it, not on the website) although they're out of stock atm.

Well done for recognising that she wasn't happy with the classes and stopping them - a lot of people don't.  Including trainers, as you found out :-(  And I sympathise with the training issue at home - it took around 18 months for Phoebe to realise that training wasn't a completely scary, hideous experience and she quite enjoys it now, but I still have to take it gently and do tiny sessions with her.  She still gets a bit edgy if we're doing proper training (e.g. working through some separation training atm, I'm trying to train her to stop charging around like a lunatic when I'm separating the others to go out) but trick training is fine :-)  And very useful for building confidence as it's fun and low pressure :-)

thankyou,I will definately check that out,could well help.Poor little phoebe,what on earth must have happened to her in her past.Thank god she found you,I suppose Ive no one else to blame but myself with Gwen since Ive had her from eleven weeks-although the breeder did say shes shy,but will be ok once shes used to you,she was a brilliant pup,never minded being left when i took the older collie out,never chewed,was really easy to housetrain. there was a little blip at 7months,when she chewed a couple of items the postman had delivered-served me right for being smug!
Think its time I gave Gwen a little more time.maybe she d like some easy bits to do,now.She did seem to enjoy the jumps at agility. (Oh,youd laugh.I took her to flyball,thinking that might be her"thing",and she spent the night sat behind me on the bench,peering over my shoulder!Er,no,mum,its scary!

just ordered some melatonin,3mg,thankyou!

Interesting information about melatonin.

> Poor little phoebe,what on earth must have happened to her in her past.Thank god she found you,I suppose Ive no one else to blame but myself with Gwen since Ive had her from eleven weeks-although the breeder did say shes shy,but will be ok once shes used to you,

Oh, I know exactly what happened to her in her past - right from the very start.  I know both her previous owners, and worked with the last ones for three months before they had to admit defeat for her sake as their home was just too noisy (country house but on a rat run road).  The first ones bought her from a farm with no preparation or research, then didn't socialise her at all; the kids threw stuff at her and tormented her, plates were smashed, generally a very noisy household.  Middle of nowhere too so when I say she wasn't socialised at all I wasn't kidding - traffic is a big problem - and then when she started to get too much for them, they got "help" from a dominance-type trainer, who had her on a choke chain and had them checking her a lot.  I believe that was the root of her fear of leads, then compounded by all the other phobias.  The slightest pull on it from me without careful warning/guidance (e.g. if I need to switch her and Rai round on a walk) and she hits the floor, it's heartbreaking :-(

Breeding is a factor too - she is not well bred, she's working lines and nervous lines to boot.  Bred solely for money.  By chance I know her sister, from a different litter, and she has all the same issues as Phoebe - the difference is that she was bought by fairly sensible people (setting aside where they got her from) who socialised her and got the right sort of help when she was still a puppy, so those issues are just whispers for her now.  It's bittersweet when I see her, because I can see the dog that Phoebe should have been.  But we're getting there, she's certainly a million miles from where she started :-)

You may not just have yourself to blame for Gwen, please don't feel bad!  My other collie, Willow, is also a rescue but a young one, I got her at 11.5 weeks.  She is also nervous and undersocialised.  I tried my hardest to rectify it while I still had some of the critical social window left (4-14 weeks) but she really needed the early input she didn't get, because her original owner and then my friend who took her for a while when the owner couldn't cope (as we both told her she wouldn't, when we advised her not to get a puppy, a collie or a bitch because of her other very nervous dog) didn't socialise her properly.  She's a lovely dog but very hard work and quite spooky at times - the other night she freaked out at the giant weeds growing around one of my little apple trees in the dark!

Jumps and things are good for confidence too, definitely - I do the odd one with Phoebe when she's having a good day and she's really starting to enjoy them now :-)

ETA a quick note about the melatonin I forgot - thanks for the info JG - the one interaction I've noticed in my dogs is with tramadol, otherwise I was told by the vet behaviourist I got advice from that it is safe.  Remy gets it occasionally for storms and fireworks and if he gets it close to a dose of tramadol he gets a bit wifty on it.  It's the only side effect I've seen and if the two are given with time in between (e.g. yesterday he had the melatonin about 90 minutes before the tramadol), he's absolutely fine.

Thankyou,Phoebe did have a bit of a rough start,then,poor lass.I never encourage anyone to get a collie,unless theyre ready to put the time in,so I assume the worst and that they wouldnt,and Im always careful to tell anyone asking that they can be hard work.I had my first collie before I knew anything more than theyre beautiful dogs,luckily we were fine and I was hooked! Sometimes I wish Id got the energy I had when I was younger,and hope Im not short changing them.These days I save my legs for nice long walks with them!
   None of the dogs are on any other medication,thanks for the warning,and thanks Jeangenie for the information!
Poor old Gwen,if a book gets dropped,someone will joke"thats another phobia",In fact,son in law Colin put a shelf up using a loud scary drill,and it took a year for her not to run and hide when he came round!Id been out when he decided to do it,too!