If a buyer purchases a dog with kc registration but the papers are 'lost' for whatever reason, can copies be obtained from the kennel club?

That happened to me and the KC sent me out a copy....

Thanks for that.

The reason I asked;

My friend's cousin is looking for a particular breed of dog that isn't usually available and not a small puppy. A 9 month old bitch is available from a downsizing kennel but the owner (not the breeder) wants to withold all documentation - including the pedigree. Cousin, wants to know the lines to check for health issues which I think is reasonable but has been told that as the dog won't go for breeding, so why does she need the pedigree? ALL docs will be witheld.

The cousin will have any bitch spayed as soon as she is mature and has no intention to breed. So I have no issues there but think it unfair to hold the pedigree at least.

Whatever she decides is up to her but I just wondered if paperwork could be obtain if you were the legal owner of a kc'ed dog. I have seen ads where papers have been lost during move or dog ate them as a puppy etc and always wondered why the owners don't replace them - thought you couldn't.

if she hasnt been given the kc reg then she wont be able to transfer into her name so the kc wont issue her with new docs. pedigree information can be researched through mykc. just doing an internet search on the registered name often finds pedigree information.  However is it a good idea to buy a dog from someone where there is a disagreement about something as fundamental as this?

This dog could almost be considered a 'rescue dog', and rescues always withhold any documentation. As long as she's paying a 'rescue' price - about £150 - then it seems fair.

The price is £650 and I have advised to steer clear but its up to her in the end. Its her decision. I think the seller has stated that paperwork will be forwarded once proof of spay has been sent. The sticking point seems to be the time of spay. Seller wants it asap, buyer wants it at maturity.

IMHO, at that price, seller should spay before rehoming. I would do this, regardless of selling price £50 - £650, if it was that important to me I'd do it myself.

Just to clarify, my question wasn't for this particular situation, just something I thought of because of it.

>Cousin, wants to know the lines to check for health issues which I think is reasonable but has been told that as the dog won't go for breeding, so why does she need the pedigree? ALL docs will be witheld.<br />

I know rescue do this, but I really don't understand why someone parting with a dog cannot pass on the documents.

Maybe they don't realise that they can endorse the papers 'progeny not eligible for registration' while the bitch is in their hands.  A lot of people think only the 'breeder' can do this when pups first registered, but in fact an endorsement can be placed at any time by the owner of the animal at the time, and if selling they inform the new owner the endorsement will stand.

Of course some breeds sell well even without papers, and a known pedigree even without registration may make them even more so???

I would always want to know the background on any dog I purchased, for as you say to check on the likelihood of any health issues (high hip scores etc). 

Also it's just nice to know which are the dogs relations if you become more interested in the breed generally.  I belong to breed related facebook groups and people love knowing which dogs their dogs are related to wh3en photos are shared, common foibles in the family etc.

CAN see no reason at all for withholding the pedigree, seems correct that a prospective owner would wish to know that basic information if they have a real interest in the breed.

If they can find out the registered name of the dog, the pedigree can be viewed via MyKC despite them not being the registered owners -as can health tests.

Theoretically then, couldn't someone find the registration number and request the documents for their dog?

I haven't heard anything yet so don't know what she's decided.

No because they will only give copies of the documents to the registered owner, or occasionally the breeder when they have had the dog back but papers lost..

As has already been said if the owner of the kennel downsizing does not  sign the KC transfer of ownership form then your friend can have the dog for the next 10 years even with a given KC pedigree but never be the owner in the eyes of the KC, lost papers are entirely different to a transfer of ownership form, which is what she will need to ever KC reg the bitch in her own name, if she is not given that, the bitch will always remain registered in the eyes of the KC by the previous owner, she can never, ever claim any paperwork for the bitch.

From what you say........ sounds as though the breeder will sign the transfer once the bitch is spayed, IMO the breeder really should spay first and then pass on with papers, this is lazy breeding and not in the interest of the bitch pup, but obviously they don't wish to pay for the op, not very good?

A bitch to be a pet only is generally spayed 3 months after their first season, 9 months very often is when that first happens (although as with people some bitches are earlier some much later) so selling at 9 months and then spaying 3 months after the season brings a bitch up to approx 12 months of age for that spay, bitches are not like dogs where you have to wait 2-3 years for neutering, as long as 3 months after that first season and not before that will be fine..... :-)

Hopefully, there is some parentage and lines of this pup at the kennels, and there is no reason why your friend cannot see the official paperwork for the pup along with any health checks from the parents, she should also get in writing that the paperwork will be transfered at the time of the spay.

If there is no paperwork to view, pah!........ I'd walk away completely......... plenty of stolen dogs out there sold in this way, along with dubious parentage, if you can't see something with your own eyes no point in believing it to be true, unfortunately the world today makes me very cynical, people lie all the time.... as the saying goes, seeing is believing..........

> bitches are not like dogs where you have to wait 2-3 years for neutering, as long as 3 months after that first season and not before that will be fine....

Actually there are was  a study recently that showed that the more seasons a bitch had the better her chance of living into old age...

Thank you for clarifying that. Having not yet bred from my girls, never having to rehome  etc I haven't really looked in to reg transfers or other kc admin in great detail bar health testing so its always good to learn something new and highlights how much more reading I have to do.

Back to the bitch in question, from what I understand,  the seller is not her breeder but purchased her for breeding. She is actually over a year old and has been hip/elbow scored with excellent results but kennel is downsizing and she is up for sale. Seller does not want her to go for breeding but hasn't explained why this is (afterall thats what they were going to do but I guess that's their choice). I spoke to the cousin about technically adopting the dog if papers are witheld and that the price should include the spay. Having spoken to the seller I think she has decided to steer clear.

I think its sensible as I know she would prefer a male and has waited this long for a hv. A little longer won't hurt. Have suggested she contact the hv breed society for better help and suggestions.

With large giant breeds, spaying at 12 months would ddefinitely be too early, growth is not yet finished.
recommendation is once they have finished growing ( if at all bearing in mind current research)
-I had a girl at 18 months xrayed and growth plates were clearly still open. At a year old they are rarely at their adult height&nowhere near adult body.

I completely agree noora.

I may be alone in thinking this, but I believe that waiting until a large breed dog has reached their full growth potential also helps with their mental maturity as well as the benefits to health regardless of gender.

>I may be alone in thinking this, but I believe that waiting until a large breed dog has reached their full growth potential also helps with their mental maturity as well as the benefits to health regardless of gender

Your not alone I have noted and so have my friends who are experienced dog trainers, and always spay bitches as they won both sexes.  They over the last 40+ years notice a definite annoying  'Peter Pan ' effect on early neuters.

Thanks brainless....makes me think there is method in my madness!

I may go a step further and say that in my limited experience, a bitch bred before mental maturity also remains in this 'peter pan' state. The bitch I took on whelped long before she was 2 years old and although she reared both pups exceptionally well, she still has some puppy type behaviour herself. I thought it might just 'be her' but have since met 2 other bitches of different breeds and each owner states the same. Both cases were rehomed as soon as pups were sold. Both bitches, a staffy and a great dane have also remained small and not grown to their full potential.

I've noticed a similar 'Peter Pan' syndrome in my dogs over the years - like that phrase, must remember it.
Out of the four bitches I've owned, the first was spayed after her first season - vets advice at the time, two and three were spayed before their first seasons - vets advice now changed and I knew no better so had them done, number four is being spayed next month and has had her first season. The second and third girls were noticeably puppy like most of their lives, both had temperament problems which I now realise were probably not helped by an early spay. After the current dog had her first season she really seemed to change becoming much steadier and more grown up, still has her 'moments' as she going through that teenage stage, but the difference in her has been quite dramatic. I'm glad I stuck to my guns this time.