With a proven dog, stud fee up front because he has done what was asked. Unproven dog by arrangement. Can't see any argument in that. I will always ask for stud fee at the time, if no results, then free mating next, with another bitch if required. Can't see any problems with that.

If I owned boys no way could I take £1200 for the "service" and keep it if poor bitch owner ended up not having pups!
Neither could I say free return with different bitch if necessary... I would look at each combination and allow ones I feel are suitable pairing, so the owners other bitch I might not feel is suitable but would have tied myself in doing that mating regardless? Even if bitch owner had multiple girls, I would expect them to want my boy for a particular girl for specific reasons, not just any girl they have!
there is clearly very different ways of doing it and what people find acceptable :-)  shame on those who do not follow through what ever they agreed on is all I can say.

there is clearly very different ways of doing it and what people find acceptable :-)

Very true -also the fact that in many breeds £1200 would never be charged either for a pup or a stud fee. Funny how different breeds have ended up with such different ways of charging for stud services. I think the best anyone can do is stick to what is the accepted norm for a breed.

Noora.....Of course the alternative bitch would have to be approved. Just stating what happens in our breed and locality. I do not charge£1200.....I wish lol

To clarify I was charged last £800 for services of a Champion dog with no expectation of a mating with same dog next time if no puppies but only payable if puppies born. Puppies at the mo are seen from  £800 to £1000.
Equally I have been charged half the price of a puppy ( same thing once on the ground) from a Champion dog owner so even within a breed there is quite a variation.
I think you are right though, the main thing is that there is complete clarity at the time of the mating so no fall outs later. Of course I am talking about people I know so sure it must be quite different if not.

"Full fee at time of mating is how it is always done in my breed"

Every dog we've used we've paid at the time of first mating, if no litter then free return next season, if you decide you don't want a return then it's your loss - which I think is fair. You've paid for the mating or 2, and the stud dog owners time

Noora.....Of course the alternative bitch would have to be approved. Just stating what happens in our breed and locality. I do not charge£1200.....I wish lol

I'm not sure what happens in my main breed these days, but I used to do what Lynneb does.  Fwiw

Well as I said I am very glad that people in my breed generally have been generous with their time.

> if you decide you don't want a return then it's your loss - which I think is fair.

This is where I'd disagree and don't feel it's fair. £850-ish (the price of a pup) for the mating and stud dog owners time works out VERY well for the stud dog owner, especially if no pups result. As I said before I think the handling fee (£100-150) is a reasonable price to pay for the "service". If no pups result the stud owner isn't out of pocket and the bitches owner has the choice to go elsewhere. If the mating(s) result in puppies then the stud dog would be paid the balance. Obviously, as this post proves, honesty and integrity on both sides is needed.

As I said before I think the handling fee (£100-150) is a reasonable price to pay for the "service". If no pups result the stud owner isn't out of pocket and the bitches owner has the choice to go elsewhere.

It is still so much breed related. In my other breed you would normally borrow the stud dog. So for my last mating we travelled for 2 hours to collect the dog (at a show), kept him for a fortnight and supervised the matings myself, fed him, groomed him etc, then drove for 3 hours to return him home. Bitch then developed pyo and had to be spayed. I would have been quite unhappy if I'd have been expected to pay a handling fee after that.

Crikey I must be in two very trustworthy breeds (Dog & cat) as I have never paid a stud fee at time of mating, we just pay once the puppies start selling and no-one has ever been diddled to my knowledge.  And even with my own stud cat, I do not take a stud fee until the kittens are on the ground and showing that they are all healthy.

I'm glad that my breed is the same Christine

Actually I think I paid a stud fee up front with my first litter. I have never done that since and yes feel fortunate with the people I have dealt with.

With - I think - most horses it is quite common to get 'no foal - no fee'

After what we have been through, I personally feel that in my breed it is reasonable to pay upfront for 2 ties and free return. It is the breeder's choice if they come back - however, if there is a valid reason, I'd return the fee without question.

And no puppies after 2 seasons ?

'No foal no fee '

A handling fee is okay but same principle should apply in  dog breeding.

If you have a proven dig, they have delivered the required service, so that should be paid for. Free mating next time is appropriate. It is not the dogs fault if no puppies.

Interesting.

I think that the breeder expects to get a litter of puppies, not their bitch and the dog to have an expensive good time. ;)

> It is not the dogs fault if no puppies.

without testing how do you know that. I personally know of two dogs that were previously fertile that were tested and found to have no viable sperm. It was only when bitches started missing that they were tested.

Giggling at that one Brainless.

And no puppies after 2 seasons?

I'd advise they had their bitch checked and I'd have the stud checked. If the stud fee is only a 3rd of the price of the pup to begin with and I have housed the bitch for at least 3 days each try - it doesn't seem unreasonable. Even kennels charge upwards of £15/20 a day per dog and any bitch that comes to us leaves with a decent pack of goodies.

There are too many variable to blame the stud if the bitch misses. There are many breeders (not here) who don't have scans or x rays done so can't say whether she missed or absorbed etc. The stud owner has also given up time for the breeding to take place and the dog has provided the service advertised.

Not the same but if you pay for IVF and fail to get pregnant, you don't get your money back or a free return!

>Not the same but if you pay for IVF and fail to get pregnant, you don't get your money back or a free return!

A fair point! :-)

>If the stud fee is only a 3rd of the price of the pup to begin with

This is why it's very breed dependent.

In my breed a stud fee for all dogs across the board (first timer or top dog) is the price of a puppy (around £700, so a lot more than boarding for a dog for a week or so).  Usually payable after a litter is on the ground.

Our males get very little if any stud work no matter their quality, as it is all about whether they happen to be a good match for available bitches, and in numerically small breeds that may be none, often until a generation or two go by.

An imported dog I was in partnership with sired 8 litters, not a lot of litters, but would be a lot today for a numerically small breed now registering on average 50 pups a year) now because a fair number of his offspring were bred from (he was owned by 4 breeders) he is in a high proportion of pedigrees, as sire, grandsire and/or great grandsire.

>Even kennels charge upwards of £15/20 a day per dog and any bitch that comes to us leaves with a decent pack of goodies.

ROFL  

I should hope so, as that's what's been paid for :-D

>Giggling at that one Brainless.

Me too!  Then I thought oh Barbara how could you be such a spoilsport.  :-)

At least we are in a breed that allows the dogs to court each other, and behave naturally, with just unobtrusive supervision and assistance in the tie.

Having been an assistant to the mating of a large leggy working breed, where there were 4 handlers, (one held her bitch, another had the dog on lead, a third steadied the bitch while the dog was helped to turn by his owner with me helping the leg over) am so glad not to have such palava, and am able to supervise a mating single handed..

Hi, sorry to put a spanner in the works, we tried this with an owner that didn't pay. They registered the pups online even though we had made the KC aware of this. The pups were duly registered and the KC stated 'that they do not become involved with regard to money only if stud dog hasn't been used and false registration'. The only way that you will get around this quickly is to ring the registration department now. Tell them you do not wish for any litters from your dog to be registered online, you will have to then put this in writing to them, you can e-mail directly to them.
I hope this helps, this has worked for us since we had the problem, you can lift it at any time but make bitch owners aware that they can only register pups by post on the form 1.

>Even kennels charge upwards of £15/20 a day per dog and any bitch that comes to us leaves with a decent pack of goodies.

ROFL   I should hope so, as that's what's been paid for 

now why didn't I see that when I posted! ;) I should mention that at every service!

>Even kennels charge upwards of £15/20 a day per dog and any bitch that comes to us leaves with a decent pack of goodies.

ROFL   I should hope so, as that's what's been paid for 

now why didn't I see that when I posted! ;) I should mention that at every service!