This maybe a bit long but not sure what to do or where to go next.
Gundog 30kg and now coming up 14mths. Initial problem started at beginning of March with a right hind leg skip/hop. No lameness or injury noticed. Couple of weeks later definite injury on the leg by running through a wire fence which caused him to hold leg up for a few minutes before running on it as normal but still with the occasional skip/hop through.
Vet checked and no patella problem, just thought muscle injury so restricted excercise regime and rimadyl.
I also took him to a chiropractor who also thought just deep muscular injury, again patella felt strong.

He started hydrotherapy about 5weeks ago and has been a very strong swimmer using all four limbs equally and really well.

Skip/hop lessened and I had begun to let him off only on flat areas, no ditches or woods, and seemed to be doing well.

Had a few days away (27th April)where there was some steep hill walking up and down but we didn't do this much, mainly one day had more of this. When we got back he had hip scores done the next day. The night following the hip scores he seemed in pain giving a little whimper every now and again which was not like him.
Hydrotherapy two days later very noticeably weaker on his right hind leg which we hadn't seen before.
Bank holiday Monday he gave a little cry when jumping into van for his walk with my others and for the rest of the day he didn't jump up at the work tops or into his chair but did look like he wanted to but something was obviously holding him back. We don't let him jump in the van usually but he just whizzed through with the dogs and just lept in before we could stop him.
Took him to vet the next day who found nothing wrong with him! And he was back jumping up at work tops. He did skip/hop when the vet made him trot up and down but the vet missed it. Back to restricted walking and rimadyl for a few days

Hydrotherapy continued and although still weaker on that side he was a little better. Chiropractor thought it was deep muscular still and that it was going to take time to repair. She did some adjustments and massage on him and he had to have only 20mins walk a day up to three times a day for 10 days which I have done. He has also had a Galen massage on Monday of this week and on Tuesday hydrotherapy which he was fabulous at and looked even on both sides.

Brilliant I thought we have finally turned a corner and he was on the road to being fit again. He had been counter surfing for England and seemed very energetic and back to how he was.
Then this morning he jumped at the unit but I didn't see him, I only heard him cry and when I turned round he was sat on the floor appearing in discomfort. He got up and then laid down again but this was short lived as it was breakfast time and he wanted food.
He has been jumping up still today but the skip/hop has returned (this had disappeared in last week or so) and he is weaker on his leg though using it.

Now what do I do?? Does this just sound like muscular or something more sinister? Cruciate? But vet said he too young! Hips looked good on the X-rays for BVA but no scores as yet. It just seems to be going on forever and the smallest thing seems to have put him back.
Just when I think we're getting somewhere it goes backwards. Up until now he has also being doing well in the show ring .

Any thoughts or advice greatly received!

Have you considered Panosteitis?

If he was mine I would get him referred to an orthopaedic specialist. You could keep going on like this for ages, and worrying, unless you get a definite diagnosis.

I had a similar experience when my male SBT was young.
In his case it was his cruciate, he never needed surgery, but it was the very devil to heal, and just like your boy, he would seem to have gotten over it, only for it to " go" again.
In the end it took about six months to come right and required very strict exercise restrictions, even when he went out to the loo, it had to be on lead ,as he would take off round the garden like a guided missile given the chance.
He would do it again from time to time, but by restricting him for three to four weeks ( and Metacalm ) he would be fine.

Pano I had thought of but doesn't that vary from leg to leg as they grow?

Cruciate problem is at the back of my mind all the time but my vet said he too young, which I don't think is right. Cruciate would add up to it suddenly going again rather than muscular. He doesn't limp but I can see he doesn't fully weight bare on it, he does weight bare at times but to me he favours the other leg, that was until this week when he really looked improved. He hasn't any muscle wasting on his right side as yet either.
All I have read with cruciate is that there would be limping and lifting of the leg and more pain and wouldn't be able to jump up etc.

If it were that I don't think I would do surgery as it can't be that severe but I would like to know. I don't like the sound of the test they do and was worried it could make it worse but not sure if if I could just say I only want CT or MRI. Ideally  I should have got them to check his cruciate  when doing the hip score when he was under sedation, but then I'd be thinking it was that that set him back!

He is so lively and energetic just keeping him calm in the house is a challenge esp when they have all had dinners and want to do circuits round the lounge. Visitors to the house make him jump around like a looney too.

I thought cruciate too.
The ligament can be in any state of laxity from stretching to tearing ..giving varying signs if instability within the knee assembly.

A GOOD ultrasound may detect the problem.

I met a lady yesterday with a large gundog who had a cruciate repair at two years. Her vet initially decided it couldn't be cruciate due to her age. Apparently she has quite a bit of scaffolding built into her leg now, but it doing well and is now 6 years old.

I don't know why the vet thinks he is too young as I was under the impression that cruciate can just tear without any prior problems, a dog could just jump funny or twist and it can go??

I have read lots on how the cruciate can repair it self over time but only if it mild tear and that scar tissue is just built up around it to support it, the same happens with surgery as they can't actually make a new ligament so what ever they do causes scar tissue to support the area.

He gives so little away this boy, and to someone looking at him trotting around for the first time would think I am mad as probably wouldn't notice anything wrong!

We have southern counties veterinary services near us who do all types of imaging so maybe I can get my vet to refer us. I am guessing an ultrasound would be around £500 -£1000?? Would this detect cruciate?

Izzy tore her cruciate when she was 5 months old, so never too young to tear! Jane Oakley is an orthopaedic vet who does consultations at Seadown, Hythe. Why not arrange to see her initially? She does arthroscopy surgery but will refer on if anything more major is needed.....

Maybe posterior cruciate rather than anterior - it would possibly give those symptoms

Jo

When My dog did his, he would be limping and holding it up when he got up from resting, he would be able to use it quite quickly once he was moving.
It was some time ago, so I can't remember exactly how old he was when he first did it, but he was no older than two.

Well he doesn't appear to struggle to get up and doesn't hold it up.
I have the vet to ring tomorrow so I can get a referral done and then decided if I want to go see them, initial consultation is around £230. Expect they will say he needs imaging done to exclude things.

Is posterior damage more subtle?

2 of mine had Pano, and whilst it can move from leg to leg, it didn't in either of mine. Apparently it's viral? and the only way to correctly diagnose it is via an X-Ray, where the marrow looks different in Pano cases, and has a cotton wool appearance.

I'm thinking back 5 or 6 years now, so may have got some bits slightly squiffy, my clearest memory is taking my youngster in for an X-ray on her "ankle" due to an intermittent limp, to be presented with a bill for £750 and a diagnosis of growing pains aka Pano.

Also had the word iliopsoas said to me! A muscular problem which might fit

>Also had the word iliopsoas said to me! A muscular problem which might fit

This was one thing that occurred to me having read your description of the problem.  I believe that this injury needs quite along period of rest and careful rehab to ensure it heals fully. I an not sure how it is diagnosed though. Also reading through your post it seems like it would be a good idea to try to stop your dog jumping up if you can. Easier said than done I know :)

I think diagnosed through ruling out everything else but can seen on MRI or ct.
Reading about it it is a long recovery & strict exercise regime. Agility dogs suffer with it the most it seems.
I'd rather it was this as don't want him to have surgery but what will be will be.

I'd love to stop him jumping up! He is such a foodie & nosey so the work tops are his goal. I am putting in the utility when we eat and try and stop the playing madness with my others but that's hard as they need that interaction with each other.  We've never stopped him getting on the sofa either as we don't mind but I need to now somehow. He's not like a little terrier I can keep in a pen, he'd be jumping up to get out or when family come over etc as he loves people.

Just as I understand - the posterior cruciate damage can pull on the patella, but you need to have a specialist to check him out.     We went through all these routes  with one of mine after he'd got hung up on  a fence - it transpired he'd pulled a muscle in his back after all - he's fine now!       So don't leap straight into surgery, as several things can cause the same symptoms, and sometimes it's just time.......

Jo

Small update
Now have referral to southern counties vets specialist on Tuesday, yippee.
This week I have let him free run for 5mins or so for last 3 days to see if it got worse. No difference, seems to power off on it but lifts it still intermittently. Doesn't appear to get worse with excercise but he hasn't had a lot I suppose of free running.
Vet now saying osteochondrotisis dessercans

Will let you know how Tuesday goes.

specialist initially thought cruciate degenerative disease or possible patella luxation. My boy refused to do any hopping or skipping for the vet but did show discomfort in his right stifle.

stayed for X-rays and examination under sedation. no cruciate problem but patella could be luxated laterally, also had some effusion around the joint and cartilage was beginning to wear.

he needs surgery but said could be done a bit later, as in couple of months, as I show him and lots of shows booked, but I have decided to book him in for a couple of weeks time as don't want him in pain which he is as doesn't fully weight bear on the leg. I am trying to get his junior warrant but this will now go out the window as it won't be possible by the end of september.

he could be back in the show ring by end of August but my question is now how long will it take for fur to grow back??

I have asked for minimal shaving but apparently not possible, most of the leg needs shaving and some of his back as they give epidural on top of anaesthetic. I am going to tie up his lovely feathers on the back of his leg as i can't understand why these need to be touched (infection reasons I was told)

any advice on supplements for fur regrowth? plus do I need to inform the KC of the op?

plus do I need to inform the KC of the op?

Yes you do -and you cannot enter any shows until you have gained permission. How long it takes depends on how they judge it -I would imagine that patellas would need their vet looking at the evidence and it MAY even not be granted. Only last month, in the KC Journal, a dog who had had surgery for HD was denied permission to show.

Izzy had an epidural for her TPLO op, so was shaved on the back too, this was the part that took the longest time to grow back, she had the op in the March and it was just back in time for B'mouth Champ show

Hope he makes a good recovery, where are you having it done? A  fiend had patella surgery on her Alsatian last year, he's made a fantastic recovery and you'd never know he'd had anything done.......surgery was done at that place you mentioned before? (Nr Ringwood?)

I will ring the KC ask advice. It seems the walloping into the fence wire caused it.
Hope we don't get refused, I'll be upset as I don't have other hobbies and we have been doing ok.

Southern counties in ringwood is the specialist but a few 'normal' vet surgeries can do the surgery & probably cheaper. It's just who do you pick!

Pick the best! & if he's insured, always go to the Specialist IMO :-)

>a few 'normal' vet surgeries can do the surgery & probably cheaper

I use a vet surgery that happens to be a tier 3 accredited animal hospital.  Although it hasn't always been and I've used them for over 45 years now.  I had my first patella op with them when I had my first Toy Poodle in the 70's.  I've had 2 more done since they became a hospital. 

They have always had a vet more than able to do this surgery.  Indeed, with my first it was in the days that poodles were more popular, and the vet couldn't wait to do the surgery because he loved poodles!

Your vet will need to confirm that an accident caused it, as opposed to him being born with it.  The KC should accept that.

had that happen to a promising pup 5 years ago. He injured knee causing his patella to 'pop' when he was 9 months old. He had an op which was brilliant but I stupidly asked for permission to show and was denied this. My Vet and specialist vet both certified that the recovery was unremarkable but the appeal was denied also, reason being, 'the surgery would give him an unfair advantage over other dogs'. Never been so angry with doing what I thought was right by informing the KC. No one would have know as his movement is as it was, I would just have had to keep him out the ring for a while.

I do believe that now any Vets doing this type of op have to inform KC themselves. I know how you must be feeling.

I can't comment on the showing side, no experience or knowledge of it but I just wanted to say, try not to have a time frame in mind for recovery.  You said he could be back showing by August - that might be too soon for him, but if you have that as a goal in mind you may unintentionally try to push him too quickly and end up slowing things down more.

Just let time do its work, don't fret about it and before you realise it, you'll be back in the ring :-)

I totally endorse this response - surgery like this must be reported to the KC who may not give you permission.    And you do realise this is hereditary so he really shouldn't be used at stud.

yes I know the recovery time is all down to the individual dog and how well he gets on etc. I was just sort of thinking ahead and 'maybes'

had that happen to a promising pup 5 years ago. He injured knee causing his patella to 'pop' when he was 9 months old. He had an op which was brilliant but I stupidly asked for permission to show and was denied this. My Vet and specialist vet both certified that the recovery was unremarkable but the appeal was denied also, reason being, 'the surgery would give him an unfair advantage over other dogs'. Never been so angry with doing what I thought was right by informing the KC.

I can imagine the frustration, but I would rather a few dogs were denied that may not have a hereditary problem, rather than dogs being given permission where the problem was hereditary and hence people would be encouraged to breed from affected dogs if they move well and win well.

From reading the section of permission to show every month for years, I remember that cruciate ligament repair surgery also is usually denied permission -and again that tends to be injuries.

denial is all to do with if the surgery changes the natural conformation of the dog, I have just asked the KC. He was quite insistent on this and its nothing to do with injury or anything else. The vet proposing the surgery can email with the outline of the repair that would be done and then the KC decide on this.  it has to go to their vets for them to decide, but at least I will know prior to surgery my chances of being allowed back in the ring.
my issue is that prior to surgery most dogs won't have natural conformation if they are compromised by a cruciate problem or patella luxation problem that hasn't been from birth so surgery to correct this will give back natural conformation??? how could it alter it if its altered or impaired anyway from what is 'natural'

I totally agree that corrections done because of hereditary problems shouldn't be granted but surely those where its not inherited and its because of injury should be on individual case and breed history rather than just type of surgery!?

The whole leg will also need to be clipped and the feathers won't be able to be tied out of the way.  This is because the leg will have to be free draped so the surgeon can move the limb during the procedure.

patella surgery usually involves moving bone, deepening the groove and tightening muscles.  The dogs structure is no longer " natural"

Also poor construction can make dogs more prone to injury. 

>Also poor construction can make dogs more prone to injury.

But this was not due to poor construction.  The OP has already said that the dog had an accident that caused the problem.  If this was me and one of my dogs in the same situation, I would be fuming if I heard anyone say that it was down to poor construction.

The OP has already said that the dog had an accident that caused the problem.

The KC will have to be though though as some people (do NOT imply the OP at all) may just use an accident as an excuse, and may even tell their vet that's what happened. Some things would be hard to prove one way or another.

Mines was also due to an accident, slipped on seaweed covered rocks at beach, but that made no difference to KC. It is all down to the operation altering the natural construction which, unfortunately, is what happens during patella repair. They, KC do however allow you to do any other discipline only breed showing is ruled out. I even offered to sign something to say I would not allow him to be used at stud as long as I could keep showing him as I only had the one dog for showing at the time but this to was to no avail.

Mines was also due to an accident, slipped on seaweed covered rocks at beach, but that made no difference to KC. It is all down to the operation altering the natural construction which, unfortunately, is what happens during patella repair. They, KC do however allow you to do any other discipline only breed showing is ruled out. I even offered to sign something to say I would not allow him to be used at stud as long as I could keep showing him as I only had the one dog for showing at the time but this to was to no avail.

Well I don't think he has poor construction as femur was perfectly straight and hip score very very low and if it's poor construction surely he wouldn't have done so well so far in the ring.

Have had more chats with the vet and apparently it's lower grade luxation and no osteoarthritis as yet, he says he's coping well on it and surgery can wait if I want to.

All a bit confusing as they did make it sound quite urgent when we collected him.

I am going to wait and continue with hydrotherapy and lead walks and try and build up all the supporting muscles which probably took a battering when he flew through the wire fence, he did hold his leg up and limped on it.

My own vet has said hold fire for a couple of months.

Keep us posted!

Jo

I've not read all of the answers here, but it does occur to me that if this problem started up again after he'd been scored, that could have started it off again - when they score hips, the dog is 'flattened' which can cause problems afterwards.   Just a thought, and yes, Pano rotates limb to limb.   It's very painful although can be controlled while the dog is going through it.    The good news with Pano is it usually resolves over time.   It's more likely to hit at around 8 months however...... ?    This condition tends to run in bloodlines so it might be worth investigating to find out whether there has been any of this in others behind him.

Some vet practices have one who specialises in bones - so a specialist referral may not be needed.